Wikipedia talk:WikiProject British Government

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Contents 1 Navbox Discussion 2 Thoughts 3 Leaders of the Houses succession boxes 4 H. Roberts 5 Prime Minister Info boxes 6 Parliament Acts 7 House of Lords 8 Project directory 9 Wikipedia Day Awards 10 Ministerial Committees 11 Scope 12 Representative peer FAR 13 Infobox flag straw poll 14 Buckingham Palace FAR 15 Tony Blair FAR 16 Margaret Thatcher FAR 17 Speaker of the British House of Commons FAR 18 An English passport? 19 What Next? 20 FAR notice 21 Ulster Banner straw poll 22 Urgent:Article about to be deleted 23 Parliament of the United Kingdom 24 Reginald Maudling 25 Prime Minister vs. First Lord of the Treasury 26 Stub types for British Members of Parliament

[edit] Navbox Discussion

Well, Chronological is one possibility, but I might almost prefer Order of Precedence. Granted, that would annoying to keep track of, especially with later offices. Chronological, but keep the offices together (that is, if he was Home Secretary, Colonial Secretary, then Home Secretary again, list the two bouts at the Home Office first). Also, I think succession tables should be grouped by function (peerages grouped together, offices grouped together). Mackensen 22:47, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What about party positions? Or Speaker of the Commons? john 23:12, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hrmm. Current practice seems to be including the Speaker with titles, which I'm prepared to accept although I can't think of an argument for or against. The party positions I'd rather keep separate, unless that position placed them in the cabinet. We could always make cabinet inclusion the test. Mackensen 23:25, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think that the offices themselves need not be grouped together. I would prefer a chronological order, so that one may see the progression of the individual's career clearly. As for what should be included, I propose:

• Secretaries of State
• Great Officers of State
• Party Leaders
• Leaders of the Lords or Commons
• Speakers of the Commons
• Chancellors of the Exchequer
• First Lords of the Admiralty
• First and Second Lords of the Treasury
• Prime Ministers
• Governor-Generals

Any others that would be suggested? -- Emsworth 23:34, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)

Well, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and the President of the Board of Trade. Mackensen 23:44, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Viceroys of India, Postmasters-General, Paymasters of the Forces, Secretaries at War, Attorneys General, Lord Chancellors of Ireland, (Solicitors General - not sure if we have a list yet, though...I'll try to hit that up soon, if not), Masters-General of the Ordnance, Commanders-in-Chief of the Forces and Captains-General, Lords Lieutenant of Ireland, Chief Secretaries for Ireland, Scottish Secretaries, Master of the Mint, Treasurer of the Navy, President of the Poor Law Board, President of the Local Government Board, First Commissioner of Woods and Forests, First Commissioner of Works, President of the Board of Agriculture, President of the Board of Education, Minister of Health, other ministerial positions from earlier in the century, officers of the royal household, master of the rolls, chief justices, secretaries to the treasury (maybe), first ministers of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland.

I also agree with Emsworth that a purely chronological framework would probably make the most sense. john 23:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Mackensen 23:56, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Are we going to go with the standard format, only the center dates being shown (Emsworth, I know you've been moving in that direction)?

Preceded by: The Duke of Omnium

The Non Extant Office 1855-57

Followed by: The Duke of Opprobrium

As opposed to:

Preceded by: The Duke of Omnium 1852-57

The Non Extant Office 1855-57

Followed by: The Duke of Opprobrium 1857-58

Mackensen 23:42, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Definitely, I would have the dates in the center only. Also, I would have the dates in plain font rather than in bold:

Preceded by: The Earl of Emsworth

The Non Extant Office 1855-1857

Followed by: The Earl of Carton

-- Emsworth 00:14, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

I think that I've finished all of the Secretaries of State except for the Northern and Southern Departments. However, when individuals have held multiple positions, they may not be in proper chonological order. -- Emsworth 02:11, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

I've been putting up navboxes for Lords Warden of the Cinque Ports, but I've been neglecting to put up navboxes for Lords Lieutenant of Ireland and Chief Secretaries of Ireland... I know, I know, I should be ashamed of myself... but do you not agree that Lords Warden of the Cinque Ports should be included? They were politically important people... ugen64 02:24, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

And how are we supposed to deal with the Two Secretaries of State in the 16th-17th centuries... stupid British political system ^_^ ugen64 14:56, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts

Well, nobody's shown much interest in this, but some questions:

1. Can anybody think of others who would be interested in this topic?
2. Should we introduce some sort of mediawiki sidebar that lists all the various offices in the project? This would be rather extensive, given the number of articles there must be about the British government...
3. What is to be the relationship between articles on British government departments (which I have generally not involved myself with), articles on offices, and articles which are lists of officeholders? john 04:07, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Further thought...how do we deal with obsolete offices, and the like? For instance, in some cases, we have a different article for each name change. In other cases, we list all the various ancestral positions (as in President of the Board of Education/Minister of Education/Secretary of State for Education) in the same article...

Another question revolves around trying to devise categories for offices. Some are obvious like great officers of state or secretaries of state. Others less so. At any rate, there's lots of work that would need to be done to come to any sort of order about this stuff. john 04:12, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Possible classes include: The Queen's Household (Lord Steward, Lord Chamberlain), ecclesiastical offices and judicial offices. -- Emsworth 12:28, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)

Yup, also privy council related jobs might form a category (as in President of the Board of Education, President of the Board of Trade, and so forth). Also treasury positions, Admiralty positions, army positions, party positions, and so forth. Of course, there will be overlap. The Lord Chancellor is both a judicial official and a great officer of state. And how on earth does the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster fit in? He would, technically, not even be a functionary of the kingdom, would he, but rather of the Duchy? And what to do about pre-1922 Irish positions, or colonial positions? john 20:21, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Too much confusion... Perhaps the Duchy of Lancaster would fit in with the Cabinet positions? I think the Lord Chancellor should be treated as a great officer; Lords of the Treasury, etc, could be classed with them. Ireland, I'm sure, had great officers. Colonial positions could be classified as positions relating to India and other positions (India, of course, had its own Secretary of State, and was an Empire, not a colony, thereby necessitating the separate class, imho). -- Emsworth 22:07, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't think "cabinet positions" qualified as a category. It's too variable, in any case. I would suggest that positions which clearly fall into two categories be allowed to do so - Secretary of State for India could have a Secretary of State sidebar and an Indian Empire sidebar, for instance. Lord Chancellor could have a judicial sidebar and a great officer sidebar, and so forth. I agree that India should be separate from the other colonies (as should Ireland). john 23:50, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Leaders of the Houses succession boxes

Leader of the House of Lords, Leader of the House of Commons. Note: if the office was held concurrently with the position of Lord Privy Seal, Lord President of the Council, or some other sinecure office, and both the precedor and the successor are identical to both the house leadership and the great office, then simply write the table for the great office, not for the house leadersihp.

Apart from the fact that strict application of this rule generates anomalies (for instance The Earl of Home was Lord President at both the start and end of his Leadership of the Lords but not in the middle!) it rather downgrades the offices and can confuse heavily as the sinecures they're held with change far more than the indication here. Can I propose we change this so they are listed and make it clear who actually held the position? Timrollpickering 22:01, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] H. Roberts

Probably the wrong place to ask this, but can anyone aid me in identifying H. Roberts, who seems to have served in Whig/Peelite governments in the 1850s? Mackensen (talk) 22:11, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Prime Minister Info boxes

At the moment, there is no rhyme or reason for the infoboxes on British Prime Ministers. Many don't have any at all, thus resulting in different hand-coded styles, see: George Hamilton-Gordon, 4th Earl of Aberdeen, Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield, Herbert Henry Asquith, Henry Addington.

Tony Blair uses Template:Infobox Person, which is rather un-specific, while Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington uses Template:Infobox President, which is factually incorrect (and POV, in some respects—His Grace would be outraged to be called President).

We need a standard infobox that suits the office. We need to figure out what that box should contain, and then make it look reasonable. We could use Template:Infobox BPM as a starter, but I think it's a bit dated (and unsuitable for PMs from before the Act of Union). Mackensen (talk) 03:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I've taken a stab at revamping Infobox BPM, and here's what it would produce with Disraeli:

The Earl of Beaconsfield

Image:1st Earl of Beaconsfield.jpg
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
Periods in Office:	February, 1868 – December, 1868 February, 1874 – April, 1880
Predecessor(s):	The Earl of Derby William Ewart Gladstone
Successor(s):	William Ewart Gladstone
Date of Birth:	21 December 1804
Date of Death:	19 April 1881
Place of Birth:	London
Place of Death:	London
Political Party:	Conservative

Thoughts? --Mackensen (talk) 19:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Looks good :) – ugen64 19:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

And it's now a fait accompli. Should've done this two years ago... Mackensen (talk) 23:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parliament Acts

Parliament Acts is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 01:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] House of Lords

House of Lords is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 00:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 17:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 21:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ministerial Committees

I've recently created an article intended to be a cross between a definition, a list and a dab page: Ministerial Committee. I hope I havent doubled up on an existing British article. The term appears to be rather loosely used here in Australia, but I ran into a concrete list of British Ministerial Committees with well defined instigation and operating procedures, so I am wondering if we inherited the term but never really formalised how they are to be run. Improvements and/or comments will be appreciated. John Vandenberg 12:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scope

I have to this project because I was suprised to see this this edit on Talk:English Civil War. What is the scope of this project? I see no reason for including anything before the Acts of Union 1707 as Britain did not exist as a state before that date. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Representative peer FAR

Representative peer has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox flag straw poll

Hello fellow editors. A straw poll has opened today (27th March 2007) regarding the use of flags on the United Kingdom place infoboxes. There are several potential options to use, and would like as many contrubutors to vote on which we should decide upon. The straw poll is found here. If joining the debate, please keep a cool head and remain civil. We look forward to seeing you there. Jhamez84 11:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Buckingham Palace FAR

Buckingham Palace has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Simply south 10:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tony Blair FAR

Tony Blair has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Margaret Thatcher FAR

Margaret Thatcher has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 05:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speaker of the British House of Commons FAR

Speaker of the British House of Commons has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An English passport?

Hello WikiProject British Government participants!

It seems a debate about the use of nationality and ethnicity has been stirred on the Bernard Manning article talk page (I do beg your pardon!). It is my believe that nationalism is spoiling the integrity of some articles, and have had Union flags and citations removed with no justification. Some are even asserting there is an English nationality!

Comments are welcome on the talk page, as I feel I'm talking to a brick wall. Jhamez84 21:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What Next?

Hi, new to the project. I was wondering if there was any particular area you are looking at developing at the moment, or something that we want to move on to implementing? Enlightened Bystander 21:23, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FAR notice

Coronation of the British monarch has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. --RelHistBuff 07:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ulster Banner straw poll

Hello there,

A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Urgent:Article about to be deleted

Could someone at this WikiProject please do something this article as it is about to be deleted. Mother of parliaments. I have created its Talk Page, put WP:British Parliament Banner and given it a Gov stub. It has been suggested to be Merged into an appropriate British Parliament article and Redirected. I don't know what would be an appropriate article as I am from Australia and I don't know how to Merge or Redirect. Kathleen.wright5 22:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parliament of the United Kingdom

Is at WP:FAR Featured article review, so please come and help bring this article up to current Featured Article standards! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Badly needs inline citations. Come on chaps! ww2censor (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reginald Maudling

Reginald Maudling has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 05:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prime Minister vs. First Lord of the Treasury

A short time ago an anonymous user edited the infoboxes of all UK Prime Ministers from Walpole to Derby, replacing the term 'Prime Minister' with First Lord of the Treasury, saying in the edit summary of each 'the term Prime Minister was not used at this time'. See: Special:Contributions/86.162.150.82.

All these edits were quickly reverted. Having looked into this however, the user was correct, the first person to use the term 'Prime Minister' in an official way was Benjamin Disraeli in 1874. All his processors would have called themselves the First Lord of the Treasury. So which should it be, what we call the equivalent office now, or what the office was called at that time? I note that Walpole is called Prime Minister of Great Britain not Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. --Philip Stevens (talk) 17:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stub types for British Members of Parliament

Hi all - I have initiated a discussion into possible changes to the stub categories for stubs relating to biographies of British members of Parlaiment at Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion#Various MP categories. These changes will not affect the stubs themselves, but would clarify some issues with category naming and scope. Please feel free to add your opinions to the discussion - any additions from people working on this topic would be appreciated. Grutness...wha? 01:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)