Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Belgium

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[edit] Welcome to the WikiProject!

You can ask or discuss anything related to the project right here! --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 21:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, gentlemen, since there is going to be no Belgium very soon, I wonder what the point of all of the below might possibly be (or what you think that it might be...). Aren't you wasting your time on non-existing issues? Wojciech Żełaniec (Poland) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.19.24.115 (talk) 16:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Even if that were true, there would always be reason for a wikiproject belgium just for historic reasons. And please, don't provoke ;-) Fisheke 00:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


Ziet er goed uit voor een begin! I zal af en too wel eens komen zien =) -Casualty- 18:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! But let's talk English on enwiki, in case someone from Wallonia wants to join... --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 19:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Or Brussels ;-) --LucVerhelst 11:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll throw this page into my watchlist and see what i can do when i see something interesting. However: don't get you hopes up as i don't know much about the country i was born and raised in :-). Fisheke 08:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll be watching the project, too, but I don't think I will have a lot of time to be actively participating.
I believe this WikiProject is a good thing. There are some factors however that might threaten it, and for which we all should look out. Of course, they'll come to no surprise to anyone knowing Belgium. The first is of course the linguistic divide, with the diminishing knowledge of each other on both sides of the language border, the other being the left-right divide, especially in Flanders.
To prevent for these possible threats to cause harm to the project, I suggest that we all stick very closely to all the Wikipedia Guidelines, and that we first and foremost start by assuming good faith.
(An example of the problems that might (will ?) arise is Steven's remark above (I'm absolutely sure he didn't mean to step on anyone's toes) about the use of English, in case someone from Wallonia wants to join. A Fleming would probably see no harm in it, "Wallonia" colloquially being used as a synonym for "French speaking Belgium", a Belgian French speaker however usually makes a clear distinction between "Wallonia" on the one hand and "the Belgian French speaking community" on the other, and might feel offended by "Flemish ignorance" or even "Flemish imperialism". Solution : let's look out for these intercultural differences, but also let's always assume good faith.)
Amen. ;-) --LucVerhelst 11:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay but I really think that wasn't on purpose, I would write "from Flanders" too when I really mean "a Fleming".Evilbu 11:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I quite agree that it most likely wasn't on purpose.
And most Flemings really don't mind if you write "from Flanders" when you mean "a Fleming"... ;-) But certainly let's not go deeper into that.--LucVerhelst 11:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Well I'm in:). My English is quite good, but not good enough (yet) to say that I can write articles in English that don't require to be checked by a native speaker of the English language. Some of my interests are : the political system of Belgium (I'm a mathie so I'm also interested in making sure Wikipedia has a decent explanation of things like allocation of parliamentary seats), putting little anecdotes (trivia) in the articles about Belgian municipalities and finding coordinates of things in Belgium (and the rest of the world:)).Evilbu 12:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for joining, and I apologise for not distinguishing between Wallonia and Brussels.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A proposal by Evilbu concerning translations

Isn't it weird that there wasn't a WikiProject for Belgium yet? Anyway, many of the articles that need to be created already have a Dutch or French version, like Didier Reynders. Maybe we should change the page (give them the color blue or something) so people can see the difference between a (relatively simple) translation and writing the article from scratch?Evilbu 12:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, if we put links to the French and Dutch articles after every required article, it would immediately be clear that a translation might suffise. Like this :
It wouldn't be too difficult to create a template for this. --LucVerhelst 13:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
It wasn't difficult : I created Template:Beln and Template:Belf. Use : enter {{Beln|Article name}} resp. {{Belf|Article name}} and you'll get Article name (nl/fr) resp. Article name (fr/nl). Example : {{Beln|TC Matic}} gives TC Matic (nl/fr), {{Belf|Didier Reynders}} gives Didier Reynders (fr/nl).
But I was mistaken. The links to the French or Dutch articles don't appear in red when the article there doesn't exist (see fr:Article name which link is blue, but the article doesn't exist on fr.wikipedia). Getver.
Anyway, it's still useful. What do you think ? --LucVerhelst 13:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say it's that bad. It's a list of links to nonexisting articles anyway, so who cares about the red colour? I say : GO!Evilbu 14:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh no wait, on second thought, that is confusing, what if there is only a French version and no Dutch version, or vice versa? Can't we have three templates? One only linking to the Dutch, one only linking to the French, and one linking to both. I don't care about the other, I like to defend my language but I'm not that extreme :) .Evilbu 14:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Nail on the head. Adding to the problem is the possibility that a Dutch version might not have existed when the article was listed here (and the templated added), but was created shortly after that. Then the information here would be incorrect, only pointing to the French version, while there also is a Dutch version. Creating 4 different templates (2 for each language + 2 bilingual ones) would mean creating maintenance work on the list. --LucVerhelst 14:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
No, I think going for three (or four) templates is a good idea. Look, the list isn't exhaustive anyway. A name on that list needs an article, it's a "reminder". Adding that there is a Dutch and/or French article is a "reminder" too. Maintenance work from time to time is nice but the system can work without it too.
But seriously, do you really think we Belgians are gonna fight over the order in a template :)? Just put French first, or take the alphabetical order, nobody complains about Afrikaans having a top position in the list of available languages?Evilbu 17:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it's a whole lot simpler if we just look for info on other wikis ourselves... Maybe you know other languages, the articles might have different names on different wikis,... Also, I don't want to create an overlap with the "English translation"-projects (see: Pages of interest on the project page), but more a meeting and discussion place for interested people.
Btw there was a WikiProject Belgium before (see the Archive1 on top here), but it was a hoax, some guys tried to write articles on small municipalities...
--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
"the articles might have different names on different wikis". Grmbl, you know I completely didn't think about that one ? I had just reworked the template idea, creating Template:Belg which makes multiple languages in all orders possible, and then I read this... :-D --LucVerhelst 19:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
It was a good idea, but I already noticed it didn't work for Noordkaap :(. But let's not abandon the idea completely! Why don't we just write a f or a n (or both) to indicate existence of an article in another Wikipedia? I just believe in organized efforts, and I think it's convenient when one indicates whether or not translation or lack of info is the problem.Evilbu 20:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Luc Verhelst did a great job! But may I make another suggestion? How about a Belg2 template, only requiring the name of the person and the languages? I mean, Noordkaap is an exception, many of the articles are about people and usually the name is the same in all articles. So in short : a sophisticated Belg template only to be used when the title is not the same, and a handy Belg2 template that only requires a name and the languages? I don't know much about templates, really, I'm just proposing ideas:) Evilbu 20:45, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Manneken Pis (af/cs/da/nl/fr) <- like that ? {{Belg2|Manneken Pis|af|cs|da|nl|fr}}
Although I'm starting to think that the trouble it takes doesn't outweigh the gains. --LucVerhelst 20:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Stop saying that! I like it:) . I think it's gonna help. Thanks for making these templates.Evilbu 21:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Arrondissement" and "Municipality"

I've seen "arrondissement" or "administrative district", and "municipality" or "commune" (in the sense of the Dutch terms "stad", "gemeente" or "deelgemeente") being used interchangeably in several articles. Wouldn't it be better if in all articles a uniform terminology for these concepts is applied? --Ganchelkas 13:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You can add "district" to that (as in "District of the city of Antwerp" vs. arrondissement).
You're right. But we should keep in mind that the use will differ whether you're using the word in its legal meaning, or in day-to-day usage. Or doesn't it ? --LucVerhelst 13:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If they are used correctly, I don't really mind... Too much trouble to enforce uniform terminology in my opinion.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The term 'district' is not very common outside the Antwerp area. As far as the term is needed, I assume 'arrondissement' (a specific term identical in Dutch and French languages) should be preferred: it can and will be more easily linked to its specific article that describes the relevant situation in the whole of Belgium (as an administrative district, a separate jurisdiction, an electorate circumscription). In everyday language there is never talked about whatever meaning for an arrondissement, thus we do not need to use 'district' as an everyday term used for an everyday topic in other countries. User Luc Verhelst might like to inform us how the term 'district' is (legally, in local newspapers, in daily speech) relevant for (which exact) Antwerp area.
In every article that describes a specific municipality, that term should be used (e.g. as 'a city and a municipality' in the province of ...) see my recent remarks in another user's talk page (especially last paragraph of my 10 Oct 2006 comment).
In a text without official description, one can most often use 'city' (only for the main town of a municipality that ever obtained city rights, listed (unfortunately not yet completely) in a separate article), 'town' (which I suggest for all other municipalities), 'township' or (in still recognizable agricultural or nature surroundings) 'village' for today's submunicipalities (Dutch-language deelgemeenten) that once were a municipality, or 'hamlet' (as Dutch-language gehucht) for the places that never have had their own mayor. Such places however, that are (and seem to always have been) mere subdivisions of the built-up city or town, or at its immediate outskirts (groups of houses or a few streets that seem never to have been self-supporting for daily needs), we use 'quarter' (Dutch-language wijk).
— SomeHuman 13 Oct 2006 18:35-20:10 (UTC)
It seems that 'district' (as I mentioned for Antwerp) is the correct term for an inner-municipal division for municipalities of more than 100,000 inhabitants. If so, is this an official obligation for the whole of Belgium, or just for certain regions? Anyway, we should only use the term in that sense then. — SomeHuman 15 Oct 2006 21:24 (UTC)
I don't believe that the 100k line us used for distinguising different Districts. In Antwerp, the districs are simply the old municipalities that fused together to form the greater minucipality of antwerp. And i have no other knowledge of the term "District" in belgium otherwise. If you were to simply take 100k inhabitants for all the Districts of antwerp (Hoboken, Wilrijk, Berchem, Antwerp Center, Deurne, Borgerhout, Merksem,.. 700k?) Antwerp is a large city but don't exagerate. Fisheke 22:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid you misunderstand: it is the municipality of Antwerp (461,496 inhabitants) that has (well) over 100,000 inhabitants, in which case districts had to be created (I assume), I still do not know how large or small these districts may be. If over 100,000 causes creating 2 districts [one would not make sense], that would suggest over 50,000 per district - sounds about right for Antwerp (max. 9, you mention 7 districts [*]). A few cities in Belgium that are perceived as rather large, exist in fact out of several full-fledged municipalities and thus do not have districts. If I'm right and not forget one, than Ghent (233,120) and possibly Bruges (117,224) might be the only others in Flanders; the City of Brussels (144,784) and possibly Schaarbeek (111,946) in the Brussels-Capital Region (if it applies there); Charleroi (201,300), Liège (187,086) and possibly Namur (107,178) in Wallonia (if it appies there), should have districts. In case the 100,000 was a limit at the specific moment of setting it, then two or three of those might have grown since then while remaining without districts. — SomeHuman 16 Oct 2006 03:03-03:23 (UTC)
A district (also used in Dutch language) seems to coincide with a sub-municipality (Dutch deelgemeente), though having a District Council (Dutch districtsraad or deelgemeenteraad) (1992 proposal, mentions 175,000), (confirms 1998 modification), (2003 proposal). In 2000 however, the Flemish Parliament mentioned districtsraad and deelgemeenteraad as (if) not identical. About Antwerp (1996 Senate discussion) [1] (refers to law and decree), [2], [3] (both mention 100,000). Definitely no obligation: Ghent has none oldrecentrecent; about Brussels — SomeHuman 16 Oct 2006 23:48 (UTC)
Clearly, there should be an article about 'Districts in/of Belgium', 'Districts in/of the Flemish Region' (both could be mistaken for Arrondissements of Belgium), 'Districts of Antwerp' (?) since stubs like the sub-municipality Antwerp (district) do not link to such article and I for one am curious about the current legal situation, on how district councils influence the municipal level, on whether elections for the district councils are on separate lists from the municipal council list... — SomeHuman 17 Oct 2006 00:13 (UTC)
[*] in my 16 Oct 2006 comment: "max. 9" and indeed there are 9 districts of Antwerp.
See also Talk:Municipalities in Belgium#Cities and ... municipalities? on related topics.
— SomeHuman 1 Jan 2007 23:41 (UTC)
Tournai/Doornik (biggest municipality of Belgium in area) has also districts but there are not political divisions as the Antwerp's districts. David Descamps 10:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Tournai/Doornik has about 67,000 inhabitants and thus does not comply to the 100,000 set (see in earlier links above) for creating the sub-municipal districts as in Antwerp. Only about Ghent I read a few months ago, that it considers creating such. The 'districts' in Tournai/Doornik are probably police districts that (after some earlier pilot projects) were legally enforced rather recently following the reorganization of the Belgian police forces (Municipal + National Gendarmerie/Rijkwacht + Judicial Police), and can be found all over Belgium. Those are not administrative subdivisions with an elected council, but a formal cooperation between - let's say, police stations (perhaps often or always from different municipalities, the city might have a police zone with some neighbouring municipalities, and another one with other neighbours, I assume). — SomeHuman 3 Jan 2007 20:41 (UTC)

[edit] Getting more members, francophonics too, Germanspeaking Belgians too!

It seems that there are quite a few Flemings on Wikipedia, but I don't know about the Frenchspeaking Belgians. Fruitsmaak, before they start accusing us of establishing a launching pad for Flemish-nationalist attacks on articles that concern Belgium :), we should also get some francophonics to (at least) know about this place? But how?Evilbu 14:36, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm contacting everyone in Category:Wikipedians in Belgium, regardless of language issues. I have been begging the Francophones more because they are underrepresented in that category... Anyway let's not get involved in language paranoia, I'm just asking everyone so nobody will be able to claim that they weren't invited. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 19:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Steven, just a minor remark (or actually : question) :)
"Bonjour,
"j'ai pris l'initiative de créer WikiProject Belgium, si tu veux contribuer vous êtes vraiment bienvenu! Je crains un peu que nous manquons des contribueurs Wallons et Francophones..."
I think you have to use "le subjonctif", thus : "que nous manquions". I also think it's weird to use "tu" and "vous" in the same sentence. I'm a Fleming so I'm not 100% sure though...:)Evilbu 20:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I think "vous" is preferable, as you (presumably) don't yet know the people you're inviting. Anyway, I think there'll always be more active Flemings than Walloons here for two simple reasons: there are more Flemings than Walloons, and the percentage of Flemings that speak English is higher than the percentage of Walloons that speak English. --Ganchelkas 22:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes I know about the subjonctif,... but I'm just to lazy. Hadn't noticed the tu-vous. And seems like I said contribueurs instead of contributeurs.
Anyway I'm really busy right now, if anyone wants to continue inviting people from the category, be my guest. I left off at the letter L, so M-Z need to be invited, although some others have been invited already (like LucVerhelst) through other channels (articles in our scope they have contributed to). --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 22:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I've contacted most non-Flemings from M to Z. Apparently I should be a bit more careful just as well :) : "l'impression que c'est" needs a "subjonctif" instead...Evilbu 18:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay we finally have one : Mamour :) and I think there will be a few others too in the near future!Evilbu 20:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I just though of something, why only talk about Flemings and Walloons... what about the German speaking Belgians in the east? It would be great if we'd have one of them too here:(.Evilbu 09:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Licentiate / Master

Today I translated Johan Vande Lanotte, and I saw that User:Ganchelkas did Bruno Tobback. I decided to translate the Dutch word for the typically Belgian title "Licentiaat" as "Master", which today also is the correct name for the degree. I noticed Ganchelkas used "Licentiate".

I would like to propose to always use the same term. I would suggest (of course) to use "Master", as this is the name today, and as this is more easily understood in the English speaking world. What do you think ?--LucVerhelst 13:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the artice 'Licentiate' does explain that a Licentiate is the equivalent of a Master's degree and Licentiates still exist in the English-speaking world, but I don't really mind which term is used as they're essentially the same. On second thought, perhaps using "Master" is indeed better as it's a much more common term.--Ganchelkas 14:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I am a student at the university in Ghent, and the students just one year behind me will become masters, but I checked and I can assure you I am still on track to become a "licentiate". It's being reformed..it's a mess.Evilbu 16:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
So, best not spend too much time on Wikipedia, or you might end up a Master after all. :-D --LucVerhelst 17:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, Wikipedia can be pretty useful when you're a student:)Evilbu 18:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
But watch out with it, you may find a lot of information your professor doesn't agree with... Piet | Talk 14:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning articles that have just been created

Hello,

it seems several requested articles have already been created, which is GOOD :). It is also a good idea to leave the titles on the titles, but with a "strike". I myself am a little uncertain about my English, can we agree on some sort of color or any other sort of "make-up" indicating "created, but seriously, do check my English". Thank you!Evilbu 19:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

  1. Your English doesn't seem to be that bad. (Or, alternatively, my English is not good enough to see how bad your English is.:-D )
  2. This formatting might be a good idea, although we should keep in mind that there already is Wikipedia:Translation into English/Dutch and Wikipedia:French Collaboration Project, both of which are aiming at translating articles into English. Some sort of collaboration might be interesting. I really wouldn't mind if say, a Hollander or a Canadian would participate in translating these articles.
  3. The section is called "Article creation drive", so let's not focus too much on translating alone.
--LucVerhelst 20:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

A suggestion : if an article is created, the link to the new article turns blue, so the strike through isn't really necessary. We could agree that the creator of the article doesn't strike the link, but that this is done by anyone that checked the article for spelling. Just an idea. --LucVerhelst 21:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes Luc, seems like a good idea to me. I checked and couldn't find any flaws either (guess my English is better than my French ). I'm still worried about overlap with the translation projects. But it's a good thing that several people are able to express concerns on Belgian topics on this page.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 13:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, we don't really have a leader do we? Well, following the be bold policy I declare that to be the way to work, and I will add it to our portal:).Evilbu 21:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portal

I've created the Portal:Belgium. I hope you like it :-) (of course, it isn't finished yet, certainly the anniversaries section needs lots of work). For those of you interested, it is completely based on the Portal:Germany, but I hope all contents are now relevant for Belgium instead of Germany. Fram 20:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Great ! I added Portal:Belgium to Portal:Browse and Portal:List of portals --LucVerhelst 21:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Nice choice for "Selected article" --LucVerhelst 21:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It has been a featured article, so I could hardly go wrong there (and hey, I like comics!) Fram 05:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
One question : what information on that page is created dynamically ? In other words, will it take a lot of time maintaining ? Things like birthdays, etc... --LucVerhelst 21:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Only the birthdays are created dynamically, I believe (but I have to check). I'll try to create at least the next week today, I'll see how far I get. I'll try to give some important ones, but there may be trivial ones as well, as there aren't that many for every day. I've just created October 3rd. Fram 05:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Some comments:
  1. Great that someone has taken this up, great work Fram!
  2. I have to be honest, I really don't like the colours...
  3. I suggest we change the headers "for October" to "of the month".
  4. I've added Belgium-related news articles from the English Wikinews. I'm an active writer there.
  5. I've added an associated Wikimedia-box.
  6. We should inform other portals of our new portal.
I'll probably edit some more, as I have some experience from the featured Portal:Medicine. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks!
1. The colours are the Belgian colours, how dare you not like them ;-) I have taken those from the Portal:Germany (well, I have taken everything from there...), but changed the gold to yellow. But feel free to change them, I'm not especially fond of them either.
2. We can change the headers, but the month name gets changed automatically every month (just like the birthdays get changed automatically every day).
3. and 4. Thank you!
5. I've added the portal to other portals where applicable (Portal:Europe and Portal:Germany). If you know of any other portal where it is pertinent, please do add it.
Edit whatever you want to, it was just a first version. I'm adding anniversaries for the whole year, so I'll be quite busy... Fram 19:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

I've created a userbox (see the project page) for everyone wanting to idnetify himself as a member of this project on his or her userpage. As always, this is just a first version, feel free to change the look (colours, image, ...) of it, or if you rather have it deleted, just say so! I've used the coin image because I don't like our flag (the colours, ugh) and it is free to use and a symbol of Belgium. A better image is however welcome. Fram 09:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the userbox, but I added another (many WikiProjects have multiple userboxes, so users can choose), which might be more straightforward.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Let's just abandon the idea of " from List of governments", "from rivers in Belgium"

Hello,

I respect everyone's input (as usual) but I would like to propose that we just stop listing our proposed articles like that. It's confusing, Bert Anciaux is from the list of politicians, but Inge Vervotte is from the list of famous Belgians, while they are both politicians and in both cases, it's pretty much the sole reason for them being famous.

Let us just sort them like this "politicians", "rivers", "buildings".

What do you think? Evilbu 14:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Suuuuuuuuuuuuure, good idea, you know just do it! Be bold! --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I did a first small step towards such reforms. Now how will we do the rest? How about artists, with as subcategories singers, television personalities, comic book drawers... The thing is that I don't know all those Belgians... I guess you guys could help me with that? (Fram for the comic book drawers :) ).

Evilbu 20:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Done :-) Fram 05:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you!Evilbu 16:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Cities and towns in Flanders

I just noticed some added a new category tonight for Cities and towns in Flanders (he includes cities and towns in the Brussels area too). I'm not sure what to make of this and whether this project supports these changes. Interestingly enough this person has made no move to change Waloon cities to a new category. Considering today's elections and a series vandalism on the fr.wikipedia I wonder whetehr this new category and all the related changes shouldn't be reverted.

I was not certain where to ask this, luckily I found the new portal and the project, hopefully some of you know better how to react to this.

On an unrelated issue, I've been drawing (pasting together) coats of arms for various Belgian municipalities (mostly waloon so far, but some flemish ones too). The past week I've slowed down (to none for a few days now), but plan to eventually continue at a slow pace until all Belgian municipal coats of arms (for which I can find a reliable source) are done. If anyone would like a particular municipality's arms done in priority let me know (I have some problems with the fusion-municipalities as my sources predate those laws) on my talk page.--Caranorn 22:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in the category... do you have a specific problem with it?--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 22:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
My only problem is that this move will leave all the "waloon" cities and towns under the Cities and towns of Belgium while the "flemish" ones (including Brussels) will be in a sub group. It is of course possible that this reflects an actual difference within Belgium's territorial organisation (waloon cities and towns under federal authority?) which I'm unaware of. Considering this change occured yesterday when separatist parties gained electoral ground in both communities I'd tend to see this as an attempt to portray Flanders (and Brussels) as separate entities...--Caranorn 11:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Caranorn, while we have no real authority at all, we do care about matters like those. Could you provide links to that vandalism on the french wikipedia, his name and the category?Evilbu 00:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
On the french one it was something similar (in that case by an anon who was promptly blocked and the changes reverted). Here it's a registered user and I have no clue what his purpouse is. The fact that he's only created a category for the Cities and towns of Flanders and includes Brussels in the list makes me wonder though. But then I'm hopelessly out of date concerning the organisation of Belgium.--Caranorn 11:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Please provide links or give us the user's name... It's really hard to say anything about it now.Evilbu 13:05, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I guess I forgot to link in the category here it is again [Category:Cities and towns in Flanders] (can't link directly to a category). The user who created it (and changed various cities and towns' categories to the new category) is User:Rudi_Dierick. And again, maybe this is legit, I'm honestly getting ever more confused concerning Belgium and might start believing anything.--Caranorn 16:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Category:Cities and towns in Flanders. I have no problem with the category (when a category becomes too large, it is better to create subcategories, and if it is fairly clear with only a few ambiguous ones, then it is a good category. I object to the simultaneous change of the text of some articles from "xxx is a city in Belgium" to "xxx is a city in Flanders", since in this case the country is the important thing, and it looked like the change was made mainly for political reasons. Fram 05:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with a category like that. The user is probably Flemish and it's okay if he is more interested in Flemish towns, everyone who is interested can make a subgroup for Walloon towns just as well. But I cannot stress enough, when you see a questionable change, you have to give us a link (in fact-ask if you don't know how to do it- you can use "History" to show us exactly what he changed). Brussels Capital Region is not in Flanders or Wallonia, it's the third and smallest region, in both size and population.Evilbu 16:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone here know why we have a Category:Cities and towns in Belgium and a (more complete) Category:Municipalities of Belgium? If not I would suggest merging them.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 12:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Deurne (Belgium), Ekeren, ... are no municipalities, even though they are cities or towns. And a few municipalities (Heuvelland, Zwalm, ...) are not cities or towns, but a collective name for a bunch of towns solely. But apart from that, I agree that the current situation is far from ideal, and having to list every municipality in the other category as well is useless. If we make municipalities of Belgium a subcategory of cities and towns of Belgium, then we don't have the need to categorize them all twice. This would include something like Heuvelland indirectly into the category of cities and towns though, which strictly speaking is incorrect. Fram 13:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Belgian picture (Stevenfruitsmaak's creation)

Map of Belgium and its three regions (colours), two of which  have provinces (thin black lines). Communities: Regions: Germanophone Community(red & blue striped) Brussels-Capital Region(orange * ) Flemish Community(yellow * ) Flemish Region(yellow) French Community(red * ) Walloon Region(red, incl. blue striped) * Citizens of the Brussels-Capital Region may belong to the Flemish or French community.
Map of Belgium and its three regions (colours), two of which  have provinces (thin black lines).
Communities: Regions:
Germanophone Community

(red & blue striped)

 Brussels-Capital Region

(orange * )
Flemish Community

(yellow * )

 Flemish Region

(yellow)
French Community

(red * )

 Walloon Region

(red, incl. blue striped)
* Citizens of the Brussels-Capital Region may belong to the Flemish or French community.
  • I don't think we have any map of Belgium showing all regions, together with the German speaking territories, AND the provinces. It would really give a good idea of the situation though. Evilbu 09:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
We do now: Image:Belgium_provinces_regions.png, although I would call it only a sketch made with some rough copy-pasting. Let me know where you would like to use it.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 14:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

:) Wow Stevenfruitsmaak, I'm impressed:). That was fast. (This project IS paying off). Uhm, it is really not that easy to find a map like that(!). I'd like to use it for Communities and regions of Belgium, Communities and regions of Belgium... and how about using it in Belgium as well (it even has a picture of a painting located in Belgium, so why not use that one here...). I see you have already done that in the mean time.

Some suggestions:

  • A common problem with a map like that is the East Cantons. Right now they are blue while the rest of Wallonia is red. It's confusing when you start saying, yellow color indicates the Flemish territory... but red and blue together indicate the Walloon region. My proposal : let's do all of the Walloon region in red, but let's "arceren" (sorry don't know the word French or English, couldn't find it) those East Cantons. Other options are possible too.
  • Writing names of provinces in the map (might make it confusing though)

What do you think? Evilbu 16:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Please don't laugh, it's the first time EVER I upload a picture:). Well that was my proposal? A more skilled artist might execute the idea a bit better, but you get the idea.Please click on me to see clearly what evilbu really meant

Evilbu 18:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I've created another version, which you should be able to see above. I don't think naming the provinces would be a good idea because (1) that would have to be done in different languages (2) the articles about regions and provinces have been split up, and there's no sence in explaining something complicated like the regions together with an unrelated matter, the provinces.
PS: I think the matter is covered well in article Belgium with the different panels, so let's not use it there.
--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 14:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Great! If I may add yet another suggestion, maybe we should let a (very discrete) line still appear in the picture to show the precise border. I (accidentally!) obtained a result like that in my own sketchy attempt. But this is definitely very similar to what I had in mind. This project already seems to do its job quite well : bringing heads together :).Evilbu 20:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Well I would prefer if there were no border, since the image was merged from two different images, causing the border not to be exact as it is, just compare it to a map and you will see that this is merely a scheme that gives an impression but scores poorly in geographical correctness. So I think it's not a good idea, unless someone else has the Photoshop-skills to put in the exact border and then do the rest. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Yesterday, I had rephrased and placed the colour indicators of the image I found in the article Communities and regions of Belgium. I find it currently shown here with the previous text. I think my ammendments make it even more accurate and visually more attractive and clear, especially since it was shown in the article at a smaller size that made the text wrap awkwardly. It took a bit of css, but it seems worth it - very good image for the purpose in the mentioned article. — SomeHuman 13 Oct 2006 22:14 (UTC)
Yes your rephrase was much better, thank you!--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 22:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
(Other readers, don't bother looking for differences any more, Stevenfruitsmaak already updated the one in this section.) — SomeHuman 14 Oct 2006 00:57 (UTC)
Update: Meanwhile the version in Communities and regions of Belgium became edited (by Tobias Conradi and by myself). — SomeHuman 23 Oct 2006 23:15 (UTC)

[edit] East Cantons in Belgium

As I already mentioned, I would like to make Wikipedia shed some more light of the smallest (official) language group in Belgium : the Germanspeakers. Some questions that could lead to edits (or new articles) :

- do they vote for the Walloon regional Parliament in Namur just like everyone else?

- do Frenchspeaking people, living in Eupen for instance, get to participate in elections for the German speaking parliament?

- do Germanspeaking people outside of the nine official municipalities, but living in a facility town for Germanspeakers (like Malmedy), get to vote for the German speaking parliament?

Thank you ,

Evilbu 16:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Question 2: Yes. By the way, there are not so many of them. About 5%. The French speaking schools in Eupen are full of pupils from the small Walloon villages just West of Eupen. That is Original Research by the way - I noticed when I attended a Roman Catholic first communion celebration in Eupen (1998). Why French speaking parents send their children there? Perhaps to ensure that they know some German? I do not know whether this is legal, but it is the reality.

Question 3: No. But in the not very distant past it was possible for voters in Malmedy to influence the result. [4] does not say when it was changed.

Question 1: a tricky one. It is in fact the Belgian version of the West Lothian question (and yes, we should point our version out there too!) The point being of course, that there is only one Walloon parliament, but two governments: a Walloon one and a French-speaking one. So, since the German speakers depend on the "Walloon Region" economically, they get to vote for the Walloon parliament - which means that their representatives in the Walloon parliament (if they have any) can also vote on cultural matters concerning Jette or Comines, but not on Eupen or Sankt Vith. I must confess I am not sure about this one, but it seems obvious to me - and I haven't heard of any disenfranchisement of German speakers or representatives here. I suppose it would be rather ridiculous for the Gouvernement de la Communauté française to depend on a representative or representatives of the German speakers to have a majority, but it would not be the first Belgian paradox, I suppose. --Pan Gerwazy 13:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I spoke before my turn on question 1. I have to correct my answer, and significantly. First, of course there ARE representatives of the German-speaking community in the Walloon Parliament. Three, to be exact. Herbert Grommes, CdH. Monika Dethier-Neumann, Ecolo. Edmund Stoffels, PS (or SP). There is also a member living in Waimes (René Thissen, CdH). I found these people on this list. HOWEVER, strangely enough, when I look for them in the French-speaking Parliament (Walloon Parliament+19 representatives from Brussels), here (but you will have to scroll down a little) I do find Mr Thissen, but not the three German speakers. Checking the telephone numbers for "087/", I do find people who are NOT on the member list of the Walloon Parliament: BONNI Véronique (PS) from Dison, ELSEN Marc (CdH) from Verviers, REINKIN Yves (Ecolo) from Stavelot. So it seems we do not have a major West Lothian question in Belgium. How they do it, I do not know - the parties who got these seats seem to run a German speaker (who will sit on the Walloon parliament) and a French speaker (who will sit on the French-speaking Parliament) in a sort of tandem. The net result IN PRACTICE is a slight over-representation of German speakers in the Walloon parliament: 3 representatives while the German speakers constitute about 2% of the population of "economic" Walloonia. But in most parliament around the world you have checks and balances like that. --Pan Gerwazy 10:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


Okay thank you. I was thinking of another system : when there a regional elections in Wallonia, you give a special form to the people in those nine municipalities : when they do vote for a Germanspeaking party and not francophone, their vote on the Germanspeaking parliament counts (I think this is what they do in Brussels). So in theory... it's possible to have a Frenchspeaking member in the Germanspeaking parliament??(Your comment on the 5% is remarkable, how come the Frenchspeaking population doesn't become a majority like they have done in several Flemish municipalities with facilities?).

Evilbu 10:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The inhabitants of Eupen and Sankt Vith vote twice, once for the German parliament (see this one) and once for the Walloon parliament (see this and note the difference!). Result? In the Walloon parliament they have three German speaking representatives, who seem to get "replaced" for the French-speaking parliament by three French speaking people from the very same Verviers arrondissement. I do not see what the vote for the German speaking parliament could have to do with it. I do not think the fact that there is a perfect correspondence in party size could be plain coincidence. The fact that the PFF has no seat, whereas it is the second largest party in German speaking Belgium, could suggest that there is apparentage involved - meaning the results from Liege and Huy influence how the German seats are distributed (which means we have a kind of West Lothian question in reverse!). I have been googling desperately, but cannot find the answer how they do it. Perhaps there is some kind of golden rule which says three representatives must be German speaking and they take these from the best placed German speakers (or better said: inhabitants of the German speaking area) for the parties who earned these seats, replacing them with a French speaking substitute for the French speaking aprliament? Only 5% French speakers in Eupen, yes. In fact, the number of French speakers has lately been decreasing, it seems. Eupen is not close to Brussels - in fact, it is close to Aachen and German speaking immigration from Aachen is now even re-germanizing the villages West of Eupen. Of course, theoretically the German speaking parliament could have a French speaking member, why not? The Flemish parliament has some. As for the influence of German speakers in Malmedy, Waimes, Aubel, ... on the result for the German Rat (diminishing the strength of the PDB) - the site of the German speaking Parliament claims that only happened once, in 1973: read the note below.--Pan Gerwazy 12:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How about some sort of small reference desk for Dutch-French-English translations?

Hello,

I was taking a look at an article (about Marie Arena), and I was considering translating it. But there were some (technical) terms that I found a bit difficult to translate like schatkist, FOREM,beroepsopleiding. I could omit things like this, but that is not good. I could also leave the Dutch words (or French) and put a question mark next to it. That's ugly. How about a small place on the project where we can say :"Look I'm about to translate this article, but I just need a translation/convention on these few things." As I said before, I don't have the guts to put my knowledge of the English language on en-4 or anything, but I do know quite a bit of language, and I wanna help out some more.... What do you think? Evilbu 13:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer keeping translation on the translation page... but I like the idea, you could develop it on a subpage like Marie Arena/Temp, and put a notice here and on the translation pages? I'm just brainstorming here... --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
What exactly do you mean by "subpage"? From a technical point of view, how does it work? You are right (I'm all pro-centralisation) that translations should be done where they should be done... but on the other hand this might be a good place to decide on conventions we are going to use. A list of terminologies like "Minister of Brussels Affairs" could hang around here so it doesn't have to be asked everytime someone needs it. I'm just brainstorming too... :) But I cannot stress enough that whatever pops up as a result, must give insecure members (like me:)) a pat on the back to keep translating instead of retreating.Evilbu 15:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
A subpage is something typical of WikiNews... you develop something temporarily on a subpage called e.g. Marie Arena/Temp, and when the questions you had have been resolved, you move it to the namespace itself. On the temporary page, you could use question marks.
If you feel that we need uniform terminologies, we should start thinking about a Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Belgium) entry, many other countries already have something similar.
Oh and... keep translating!
--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I can give that a try. I do think that if we have those temps hanging around, waiting to be checked, they should be on the portal too. However we cannot create confusion, remember we already have the nonstriked but not red =unchecked policy :(.Evilbu 16:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
You are not supposed to create subpages in article space (so no Marie Arena/temp please). See Wikipedia:Subpages. When you are working on a page, you can do that in subpages of your userpage or user talkpage (User talk:Evilbu/Marie Arena or so. If you want to have the input of others there, you can put a link to that subpage on Talk:Marie Arena or so. Fram 11:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Everything is fine by me, we just have to agree on something. I am willing to write such things on my own userpage. I do want the input of others so putting a link on the talk page is not enough, it should be here as well. That's what this project is about : working together.:)Evilbu 17:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Fram for pointing that out. Evilbu, keep us up to date on how this is working out.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 21:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Communities and regions of Belgium

There's an ongoing debate (and associated revert war between User:Tobias_Conradi and User:SomeHuman) here about the organisations of some articles:

  1. Should Provinces of Belgium be moved to Provinces of regions in Belgium, because the provinces are subdivisions of the regions?
  2. There was some overlap of Subdivisions of Belgium with other articles, but that seems to have improved.

You're invited to expand the consensus beyond just those two people...
--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As I originally stated, you're invited to discuss this on the article's talk page, where I've moved the discussion.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 10:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Waving flags

This discussion is now archived:

  • Consensus could not be reached to further change the project banner.
  • This discussion is causing damage to this project by making the talk page unmanagable and scaring away participants, falsly giving the impression that this project is hopelessly caught up in political discussion, which it is not.

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 10:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] We are creating confusion about Victor Hoxha, let's work together and solve it!

I requested the Victor Hoxha article. I am very pleased to see someone gave it a try. But it says :"After serving half of the sentence he was paroled on the condition that he returned to Kosovo and never came back to Belgium."

In Laurette Onkelinx, I MYSELF wrote : "september 2006, it was reported that the criminal Victor Hoxha had returned to Belgium - he was deported earlier from Belgium in 2006, and told not to return for ten years"

In the talk page of that article : [5] I brought forward my own source for that claim : [6]

But Intangible used this source : [7]

They are conflicting!

Evilbu 19:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggest (unless one could reliably find out without original research, which source is correct):
  • Victor Hoxha: ..."to Kosovo and not came back to Belgium."
  • Laurette Onkelinx]: ..."and told not to return"
Immediately following each statement: <ref>[source 1 ...], [source 2 ...] (sources mention a different period during which V. Hoxha is not to return to Belgium).</ref>
or else instead of the latter: <ref>[source 1 ...]</ref><ref>[source 2 ...]</ref><ref>(the above two sources mention a different period during which V. Hoxha is not to return to Belgium).</ref>
— SomeHuman 16 Oct 2006 20:26 (UTC)

[edit] AID – Bilingual Prime Ministers

On the Article Improvement Drive, Evilbu suggests adding the first language of the prime ministers to their list, admittedly controversial and to demonstrate a political evolution. That goes a dangerous way: their second language is just as relevant... too much proving a point (undue weight), rather original research like (the facts can be found easily enough, but putting those in a comparative table...). It just belongs in each prime ministers' own article. — SomeHuman 2006-10-18 01:10 (UTC)

What do you mean "the facts can be found easily enough"?Evilbu 13:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with SomeHuman; undue weight, original research-like. Btw, can't that be inferred from their political parties of origin?--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
To reply to your last point first: no, as most parties were unitarian (i.e. both for Wallonia and Flanders) until about 1970 or so. Apart from that, I agree that it is probably a bad idea to add such info, not because it is original research (if you can find a source for every PM you mention the language of, then turning that info into a list is not OR), but because it will be hard to verify for the older PMs. Is the first language of Pierre de Decker (or Pieter De Decker), who comes from Zele and studied in Paris, French or Dutch? I have no idea, perhaps he was perfectly bilingual, writing in French but speaking Dutch at home? And in the end: does it matter that much? Add the info, if sufficiently verifiable, to the artices about the individual PMs, but as far as I'm concerned, don't add it to some list. Fram 18:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the party doesn't say much because they used to be unitary. Is there anyone here willing to debate that Guy Verhofstadt or Wilfried Martens have Dutch as their first language? Probably not. Is there anything wrong with writing that they are Flemings or have Dutch as their mother tongue (come on, the first one's French really isn't as good as his Dutch...)in their own article. So if you disagree with a list like that, I would still like to request that you give me the mother tongue of those prime ministers if you know it and it is not disputed. I'd like to point out that Edmond Leburton explicitly refers to him as the last Belgian prime minister with French(EDIT:not Dutch, silly evilbu) as mother tongue.Evilbu 18:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
...I think you mean French in your last sentence ;-) Fram 18:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Woops, of course:).Evilbu 18:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This kind of info doesn't seem to be that relevant to be included in that list. I mean other pieces of information could also be included, yet we're not thinking about them, like the province or origin. --moyogo 18:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism(?) on Belgian Canadians

Have a look at this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=81.240.63.19

I tried to repair some of the damage he caused, but I do not know how this sub-category thingie works. "Anyone for tennis?"

Actually, his only edit not concerning Belgian Canadians was quite a sensible one. Hadise did not participate in a Belgian Pop Idol contest, but in a Flemish one, on a Flemish television station. However, someone was then attracted to that article and not only changed that into Belgian again, but changed her spoken language from Dutch into Flemish. Yes, right - the girl lives in Mol and her mother lived and worked in Holland. WP:POINT? --Pan Gerwazy 13:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you did the right thing reverting him. Apart from the fact that the category isn't empty (which is good enough as a reason), we should never redirect a larger category to a smaller one. Category:Flemish Canadians should be a subcategory of Category:Belgian Canadians (and in fact, I'll make that change right away). If he or she continues making such changes, you can give him/her a freindly warning on his talk page (in your own words, or using one of the templates at [WP:VAND]]). Fram 14:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Btw Émilie Heymans is in the Category:Flemish Canadians but she was born in Brussels. According to common beliefs, Brusselers are not Flemish, or at least not all, even though Brussels is historically and geographically in Flanders. It gets confusing since Flemish could either mean from the geographical "current Flanders" (old Flanders + Limburg + part of Brabant with Brussels in it) or it could mean Flemish as in member the Community (does that include the French speaking Brusselers + suburbians?). In any case... I'm getting confused now. If I'm a Brusseler, am I Flemish? What if my mother tongue is French or Lingala? --moyogo 18:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

You were probably right to change that. People born in Brussels whose mother tongue is French or Italian do not belong in that category. I did not dare to change that one - the other girl born in Brussels was a singer, which may explain why the languages she speaks are recorded in her article, so I did change her status. Emilie's sister is called Séverine, not a very frequent Christian name in Flanders (understatement...) but as I was not sure whether Séverine was born in Belgium, I did not count that as an argument. Actually, I am glad someone performed that change instead of me: having a good look at the photographs on Emilie's biography page proves that Séverine is older than Emilie. --Pan Gerwazy 12:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anke Vandermeersch

I would like to have some opinions on Talk:Anke_Vandermeersch#Video. Please discuss it over there. Thanks.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss it over there!--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 14:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 16:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userboxes on Belgium

I feel there should be more userboxes about Belgium, so I've drafted a few related to Belgian political parties and one for users who support Flemish independence, but I intend to create more userboxes related to Belgium. I'd like to get some opinions on the draft userboxes I've got so far. The draft userboxes can be found here, please discuss them over there. Thanks. --Ganchelkas 15:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm against all userboxes except those indicating what someone is doing on Wikipedia (projects, tasks, ...). So I'm against those. But whatever you do, don't put them in the project but keep them on your (or someone elses) userpage please. See e.g. Wikipedia:Userboxes and Wikipedia:Userbox migration. Fram 12:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
As long as we don't start using them here there is no problem. But Ganchelkas, why isn't there a userbox for Walloon independence:) .—Preceding unsigned comment added by Evilbu (talk • contribs) 15:39, 29 October 2006
Both userboxes and politics in belgium are controversial, so I foresee a lot of opposition. If people haven't created them so far maybe it's because it's not necessary.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 14:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I honestly don't think politics in Belgium is more controversial than politics in any other country, it's just different. I also expect some opposition, but not more than there is against userboxes about personal beliefs and points of view in general. Nor do I think that adding userboxes about Belgian politics would meet more opposition than the userboxes that already exist about French politics, British politics, German politics, American politics, etc... I'm of the opinion that everyone should be allowed to put whatever he or she wants (within certain limits) on his or her userpage and that everyone should be allowed to state which party he or she supports. But rest assured, I will keep them on my own userpage. Also, I didn't think there'd be much interest in a userbox for Walloon independence, but if there is I'll create one. :-) --Ganchelkas 17:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I've set up the userboxes here: User:Ganchelkas/Userboxes. --Ganchelkas 11:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stub discussion

I should have known that not following the procedure would cause this, anyway belgium-sport-stub template is on stub type review, and you're welcome to voice your opinion! Btw am I the only one who thinks that this kind of process is a bit exagerated and instruction creep?--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 13:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New project activities?

Hi all,

I wanted to ask you what you think on starting up some new activities on this project, because I feel it would be pointless to start them up if they wont be put into practice due to lack of interested users.

  1. Assesment
  2. Peer review
  3. Collaboration of the month?

Please comment. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 18:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I like your ideas, but I'm not sure we'd have enough interested users to conduct peer reviews.--Ganchelkas 12:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
And judging from the lack of enthusiasm here, I guess that goes for the other ideas as well... Ah well maybe some day...--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 17:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help needed

I need some help; but first I'ld like to boast a bit :-) I have created most of the anniversary pages for the Portal:Belgium, so that every day automatically a few new histroical facts appear that happened this day in the past and are somehow Belgium-related. I have added so far 1461 items, averaging 4 a day, and 149 days also have a picture. Most are birthdates and dates of death, the rest are battles, disasters, and a few other things. Most of the people added are either royalty/nobility, or sportsmen (mainly cyclists and soccer players, but I have tried to restrict those to the most important ones), but a significant amount are scientists, clergymen, and artists. You may also expect a male porn star, one date BC, a Playmate of the Month, and a horse... I will continue to look for possible additions, but I would like to ask anyone who creates an article, who expands an existing article with dates (since many important Belgians aren't listed with their full date of birth and/or death, and couldn't thus be included), or who comes across an article I have forgotten to add, to please add it to Portal:Belgium/Anniversaries/January or any of the subsequent months. The same goes for images: I would prefer to have one image for every day (and if possible to use each image only once as well), so those may be added as well. Take care that you only add images in the public domain or with another acceptable license (GFDL or Creative Commons are acceptable as far as I know, fair use is not acceptable on these pages though). Finally, I have still 26 dates with only 1 entry, and a terrible 11 dates without any entry: please please please, if you can add something to those 11, I'ld be grateful, as otherwise we'll have an empty section on the portal front page. Those eleven dates are Feb 2, March 29, June 12, June 16, August 31, Sep 14, Sep 21, Sep 29, Sep 30, November 30, and Dec 19. Thanks! Fram 14:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toledo (K.U. Leuven) AfD

If anyone is interested:

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 19:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bruges burial

Please can you tell me how to find the burial place in Bruges of John Arbuthnott, 8th Viscount of Arbuthnott ? - Kittybrewster 21:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

To improve the article, or is it just a question as a tourist?--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 11:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
The former; although when we know where he is, we can all visit him. - Kittybrewster 14:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, sorry to bite you. Anyway I googled and found nothing.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] For those of us undertaking higher studies...

There is a Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Belgium, currently only with subdivisions for KULeuven and RUG, but you can create others.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 20:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added myself to the newly created subdivision of Groep T. Fisheke 22:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Error in Voeren article?

Voeren says :

"In 1988 concessions to the Francophone inhabitants were made. The powers of the provincial government of Limburg were curtailed and more autonomy was given to the municipality. The government of Wallonia was allowed to build facilities for Francophones in Voeren." Is this correct? I thought those facilities have been there since the sixties? Thanks,Evilbu 15:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that normally, administrations of one region are not allowed to subsidize or help organisations in another region. There was an argument about the Brussels region subsidizing a French paper in the 6 communes a facilités, and a library in Sint-Genesius-Rode. If this means that Wallonia was allowed to do certain things in Voeren-Fourons (I also remember something like that) that would mean that "build facilities" refers to buildings like schools, a cultural centre, a library. Not to the language system. Silly ambiguity, I think. --Pan Gerwazy 00:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
If it is about Francophone schools, libraries, and such, the competent authority would not be the Walloon Region but the French Community. LHOON 08:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming survey Brussels

FYI, a naming survey just started about the article titles for the bilingual municipalities in Brussels-Capital Region at Talk:Brussels-Capital Region#Names survey. Markussep 11:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 21:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Belgian categories

Hi all! I just created the following new categories;

- Populate away :) I've added a few of the obvious entries and put them in the proper regional sub-cats - Alison✍ 18:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Station infobox

I made an infobox for Belgian railway stations (adapted from nl.wikipedia) which has been put on existing station pages and can be adapted for new station pages I hope to add in the next times. Also, I plan to make line boxes. LHOON 10:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Using native terms

How would you all feel about using native words and nomenclatures in all Belgian administrative division article texts? eg, use Gemeinschaft or communauté instead of the English word community in the text of all Belgium articles, not just the titles as it could be argued that it is more precise. --Bob 04:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that in dedicated articles the official names must be mentioned. But, as a lot of institutions in belgium have a multilingual name, it just not practical. I thought that most institutions even provide english translations? (see http://www.fed-parl.be/ukindex.html as an example). Conclusion: i would mention the french/dutch/german name where possible but in the article refer to the english-language nomenclature. Fisheke 10:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dictionnaire des femmes belges

I bought a copy of the Racine Dictionnaire des femmes belges: XIXe et XXe siècles. It has more than 400 articles, all quite long enough to be condensed and/or paraphrased to produce reasonable-sized articles on Wikipedia. I've started at "A" (for Akarova); I might get to "B" (for Maria Baers) by March-ish. Worth a look. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox for municipalities?

I noticed there's not one standard infobox template for towns/municipalities in Belgium. Some towns have no infobox at all (Antwerp and many smaller places), some (non-standard) infoboxes for other towns (Leuven), and several very simple infoboxes (Mechelen, Liège (city), Namur (city)). There's also {{Infobox Belgium Municipality}}, which looks rather OK, but is not widely used (Ghent, Tournai and some smaller places), and needs some attention IMO (a map of the position within Belgium would be nice). For some inspiration see the infoboxes for towns in Germany (example: Cologne) and Greece (examples: Kalamata and the new {{Infobox Greek Dimos}}). I'd like to help improve here, thoughts? Markussep 16:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there should be a standard infobox template, and I think the Infobox Belgium Municipality is a very good one. It's essentially the same as the templates used on the Dutch and the French Wikipedia. But it does still need a tiny bit of work, for instance: how do we translate Deelgemeente into English? In the Infobox Belgium Municipality template "Commune's sections" is used, but I don't think that's an accurate translation. In a similar template I used once, I translated it as "constituent communes", but I'm not quite sure about that translation either.--Ganchelkas 16:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Infobox Belgium Municipality has some nice features I didn't notice at first, for instance the automatic lookup function for coordinates. Some things I would like to change about the infobox are the map (I think it's much more informative to show the location within Belgium, for instance with a dot-on-map such as {{Lageplan}} or {{Location map}}, maybe combined with the location-in-the-province-map), "coat of arms" instead of "blazon", show no seconds in the coordinates (that's way too precise for a town), improve the alignment of the population figures, hide the NIS number (the national statistics institute of Belgium is meant, isn't it?), and there are some commas instead of decimal points. About the constituent municipalities/communes, are they still administrative units, or only formerly independent municipalities? Maybe "districts" or "boroughs" would be OK, or simply "subdivisions". Markussep 18:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the location within Belgium is preferable. I mean, if the location within the province is shown, someone who is unfamiliar with the provinces of Belgium still doesn't have a clue as to where the municipality is located. The NIS is indeed the "Nationaal Instituut voor Statistiek" (National Institute for Statistics), but I think in English "Statistics Belgium" is more commonly used. And the "deelgemeenten" are formerly independent municipalities, but "districts" can't be used as, for instance, the municipality of Antwerp is divided into districts, but in almost all other municipalities the "deelgemeenten" are not an administrative subdivision. Perhaps it would be best to leave the part about the "deelgemeenten" out altogether, after all they can be mentioned in the text. And I think we can also leave out the telephone areas and the distribution of seats in the Municipal Council.--Ganchelkas 01:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I've copied this discussion to Template talk:Infobox Belgium Municipality, let's continue it there. Markussep 14:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of municipalities in the Flemish Region

I think the municipalities of the Brussels-Capital Region should be removed from this list. On the one hand I'm inclined to see Brussels as a part of Flanders, but on the other hand the municipalities of the Brussels Region are not in any way a part of the Flemish Region. I'd like to know what you think about this. Please discuss on the article's talkpage.--Ganchelkas 14:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that ideally they shouldn't be there. But in m opinion it is more important to somewhat standardize List of municipalities in the Flemish Region,List of municipalities of the Walloon Region and Municipalities of the Brussels-Capital Region and to create a decent cross-reference between these three. if this is done, the overlap is indeed to be avoided. I'm adding it to my to-do list (which is alread so lengthy) Fisheke 16:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree on both issues (Brussels municipalities shouldn't be in the Flemish region list, and standardization of the lists). Especially the Brussels list is very messy, with all these red links. I like the idea of adding the numbers of the municipalities as they are on the maps of the provinces (partially done in the Flemish list). The sections (as partially given in the Walloon list) are not necessary IMO. The standard title should be "List of municipalities of the X Region" (see Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (country-specific topics)). "district" (as in Flemish list) must be "arrondissement", do we need those in the lists? And let's make them nice class="wikitable sortable"! Markussep 17:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edran

Hello Project: Belgium,

I'm not a member, but I found an article on WP:RA about Edran (automobile manufacturer) and I decided to write it. I'm not familiar with your guidelines, so I will leave it to you people to decide what to do with it from here. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 17:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bilateral relations discussion

I would like to invite you all to participate in a discussion at this thread regarding bilateral relations between two countries. All articles related to foreign relations between countries are now under the scope of WikiProject Foreign relations, a newly created project. We hope that the discussion will result in a more clean and organized way of explaining such relationships. Thank you. Ed ¿Cómo estás? 18:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin cultures

Hello everyone! You may want to go to Latin cultures an participate in the article and discussion. There are a lot of disputed statements... The Ogre 12:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Project banner

This week I added the project banner on all the articles I wrote on Belgium (science, politics, and history), and changed the wording of the banner a bit so it is a bit more in acoordance to other related Wikiprojects. Any comments are welcome, even rejections/reverts of the change of course. Pvosta 15:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belgium FAR

Belgium has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. LuciferMorgan 11:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

FAR re-opened by User:João Felipe C.S yesterday on grounds of "disputed neutrality". DrKiernan 11:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Colin

When checking some info on Leon Degrelle, I noticed that links to Paul Colin were going to somebody totally unconnected: a French poster designer. Luckily that guy was also dead, so no BLP there.

I put our guy at Paul Colin (journalist) and quickly translated some info from three useful links on the internet. Thanks to Tazmaniacs the thing looks more or less presentable now. However, should not Paul Colin really direct to the Belgian one? Of course, the poster designer lived much longer, almost made it into the computer era, and so will probably have more googles, but still I think our chap is more important to the average Englsih speaker in the world. Or is that Belgocentric?

Oh, and we now have red links on Robert Poulet, Marcel Demonceau and Prosper (or George) Dezitter. Anyone tempted, please go ahead! --Pan Gerwazy 14:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belgium in popular culture

Belgium appears to be popping up in lots of movies, in sometimes strange ways (birthplace of Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies, as a rude word in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, ...). Should this be added, or is it just too silly? -- Whale plane 16:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language border map (Taalgrens - Frontière linguistique)

I made this map Image:Language border (Belgium and France)-en.svg about the language border in Belgium and in Northern France. Perhaps someone is interested... David Descamps 08:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help needed

I have recently been editing the entry on the Belgian cosmologist and priest Georges Lemaître and am confused by his name and titles; I hope a Belgian native can help sort this out. (i) in the 1930s he was usually styled the Abbé Lemaître. What does this mean? One editor suggests it implies he was a monk or abbot, but there is no record of this in anything I've read about him (by profession he was a professor at Louvain). Is Abbé equivalent to the title "Father" for catholic priests in English? (ii) As noted on the talk page, different sources give different versions of his full name. Is there an easy way of making sure (e.g. on-line public records)? Thanks in advance. PaddyLeahy 12:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current AfD about a Belgian filmmaker

There currently is an AfD for the article on Turkish-Belgian actor and director R.Kan Albay. Since notability is the thing in question and all of his films are in Dutch, it would be helpful if some Belgian Wikipedians could look it over. Malc82 22:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Leopold III of Belgium

Yes, a tiny wee bit controversial, but let's not forget that at least one newspaper judged Wikipedia on the correctness of this one. Now, until I started work on this, I noticed that there wer no references (!) and no mention of the political testament. Since most of the indignation was actually caused by that one, it needs to be mentioned. Well, the French article does not mention it either...

Now, I found out a few things about the testament which are not even in the Dutch article. However, most of it is in Dutch, a small portion is in French. Blame Maurice Dewilde. Practically nothing in English, however. Though there is a book on JSTOR - anyone with access to that, who can find the page numbers? You can help! See the relevant talk page!--Pan Gerwazy 16:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belgium FAR the second

Belgium has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion in Biographys

If anyone on this project is interested in history, it would be interesting to read about actors from Belgian history! I don't think they are so much known in other coyntrys, so it would be interesting! It would also be interesting to read about witch trials in Belgium. Just a suggestion!--85.226.235.174 12:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] North Sea collaboration

The Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive has officially closed. North Sea is the current Article Creation and Improvement Drive collaboration. WikiProject Belgium members may find that a relevant focus. I have refrained from rating the article pending the result of the collaboration. Perhaps a regular member of this project could find a place for the collaboration banner on the project page itself? __meco 22:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

North Sea has recently been translated from a Feature Article in German wikipedia, as well as the article was nominated for Wikipedia:Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive and received a multitude of improvements. It is currently under peer review. Could it receive an assessment review? SriMesh | talk 04:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congress Column, Brussels - possible error on page

The page on the Congress Column states "It was inspired by Nelson's column in London and by the Colonne de Juillet in Paris, both erected during the 1840's". However, I was just at the Column today, and the tourist info panel in front of it says it was inspired by Trajan´s Column in Rome. Anyone have a source for the former info? Should I change it? I´ve already edited Trajan´s Column.--Mushboom 20:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

No response so have amended page.Mushboom 12:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant information and/or wrong language

Articles on Belgium tend to contain little bits of information that are redundant and misleading.

For instance, the article on Geraardsbergen, a Dutch speaking town, mentions "(French: Grammont)". Likewise, the article on Namur mentions the Dutch name Namen. This could give people reason to believe the towns are somehow virtually bilingual, since the English articles on places outside Belgium do not mention the names of these cities in any language other than English and the original language (e.g. London, Venice/Venezia, but not Londres, Venise or Venedig). Why treat Belgium different from the rest of the world?

Also, there is a tendency on Wikipedia to translate what doesn't need or even shouldn't be translated at all. The town of Gent is known to English speakers as Ghent, so it makes sense to mention both names. But few Britons have heard of Vlaams-Brabant and Oost-Vlaanderen, so why complicate things further by "translating" the names? It only leads people to think East Flanders to be in the eastern half of Flanders, while it is actually in the western half... The article on Antwerp is often edited by busybodies eager to mention what the place is called in Spanish and Italian. If you really think anyone in Dublin or Saskatoon gives a damn, then don't forget Antuérpia next time. It's Portuguese.

Also, in the past many places in Belgium were known to all foreigners by their French names. Now that travel guidebooks, British and American newspapers and expats living in Belgium all begin to know Mechelen and Leuven by their real names, what's the use of changing their names in English (and even in titles of articles) to Louvain and Malines? I even saw the Grote Markt of Sint-Niklaas being called the Grande Place recently!

I'm saying this because I'm not an experienced wikipedian, but a very experienced and qualified translator and interpreter. It is typical for bad translators to be eager to translate absolutely everything. Good translators know some things are better left untouched. Especially names my friends, especially names! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.198.162.87 (talk) 22:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as giving the translation of placenames in Dutch and/or French is concerned I can only point out that there is in Belgium an official list of placenames with their translation in either Dutch/French/German. Geraardsbergen-Grammont is such a case. Wether it is useful to make use of it on Wikipedia, I leave for all parties concerned to decide. Boerkevitz 19:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that list is that the Flemish government wants to ban its use. However, this place is still called English Wikipedia. For the title, we choose the prevalent name in English. If it is not clear what the prevalent name is, then we use the English self-name that the subject chooses to call his/her/itself. I can assure you that the Province of East Flanders calls itself the Province of East Flanders in English, so that is not only prevalent English, but also self-name. In the case of Mechelen, it is not very clear what prevalent usage in English is: Mechelen, Mechlin, Malines? (Google does a very bad job on Mechelen, and recognizes Dutch pages as English - eg it finds "allintext: Mechelen -site:be -site:nl -the" no fewer than 26,000 times, practically all Dutch pages of course). So we should go for the self-name, and the website of Mechelen says Mechelen. Leuven/Louvain/Löwen is a different matter. The website of the town uses Leuven in French, English and German and that sounds simply hilarious to me (eg the website of Mechelen has other ideas about Leuven in French and German)! However, googling on English internet pages outside Belgium in the past year tells me "Leuven" is more frequent than "Louvain" so, as much as I'd prefer an historic name, I have to support Leuven now. On English wikipedia, by the way - do not expect my French and German accounts to support Leuven there. By the way, I suspect that many Dutch speakers here may have a problem with Louvain and Malines primarily because the English name is also French, but strangely, they do not object to "Ghent", "Antwerp", "Ostend" because the English name differs from the French one. Sorry, that cannot be right. If the prevalent usage in English changes, and the town website uses the Dutch name too, we cannot use the (usually historic) English name any longer.
As a matter of fact I do object to Ghent. Ghent is not marked on any maps or roadsigns that I know of. The fiction that Ghent is the popular name used for Gent in English is maintained solely by those who claim to know a little English, most of whom are anglophile residents of Gent. Just as Middle English Gaunt has been abandoned let's dump Ghent and its totally redundant "h". Fpr the record I am a native English speaker, I have lived in Belgium for over 30 years and I am a professional translator and a sworn legal translator. I have been trying to dissuade officialdom from using the archaic Ghent throughout my career, and it is sad to see that Wikipedia has decided to persist in this folly. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 22:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
With certain established exceptions my feeling is that the local name current in the language of the Administrative Region in which the place lies should be applied. The exceptions to this general rule are Antwerp, Bruges, Brussels, and Ostend. The alternative names of those places for which alternative names exist should be placed in brackets after the name at the head of the article. A case in point is Ieper. The official name is Ieper, but it continues to be known to military historians as Ypres. However, as anybody interested in the literature of the period knows it was long known as "Wipers", simply because the Ypres spelling presents insurmountable challenges to the English speaker.
Because Belgium has been frequently occupied by foreign powers it is relevant to include alternative names, as these alternatives often appear in historical records and even in product names, e.g. Mechlin for a type of lace. Although this may seem confusing to persons who do not have experience of countries with such a depth of historical texture, it is better than allowing misconceptions to continue, such as, for example, that Tournai and Doornik are two different places. Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 22:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't see any objection to giving relevant alternative names in articles. It's a service to our readers, nothing more, nothing less. IMO the French names are still relevant for Flemish towns and Dutch names for Walloon towns, and not only for historical reasons. Belgium is certainly not the only country for which these names are given, see for instance Thessaloniki (a whole section is devoted to alternative names), Shkodër, Ljubljana, Wrocław. BTW I am surprised about the titles given to articles in Dutch wikipedia for towns in northern France (e.g. Robaais for Roubaix and Toerkonje for Tourcoing). I'm Dutch, and I've never encountered these (old Flemish?) names in real life, except Rijsel for Lille and Duinkerke for Dunkirk. But that's their problem. Markussep Talk 10:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


As for mentioning alternative names in the introduction: any name that is relevant in English should be given. If there are enough English pages on the Internet with that name, or the town was once officially known under that name, sorry, but that name must be mentioned in the article. And that also applies to Spanish versions: we simply check how widely known the Spanish name is in the English-speaking world. I suppose only Gante qualifies, for obvious reasons.
I agree that any name that is likely to come up in secondary literature (or on road signs) should be included, but just what are the obvious reasons for calling Ghent "Gante"? --Paularblaster 12:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Side note: I am sure there are editors who on English Wikipedia do not want to see "Grammont" even in the introduction, but on Dutch Wiki, they insist on Rijsel, Toerkonje, Kales, Valencijn ... being the titles of the articles on these French towns? Why are they trying to "have their cake and eat it"?--Pan Gerwazy 16:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you're driving at. "Venice" is in English, the Italian name is given; the German isn't, even though Venice has in the past been ruled by German-speakers. Surely using the Dutch for "Lille" in Dutch is as normal as using the English for "Venezia" in English? And Grammont as redundant as Venedig? -- Paularblaster 01:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC) 14:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of the Walloon Movement

Is someone motivated in checking spelling and grammar in that article? Thank you! David Descamps 07:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belgium news

A couple of days ago I added a suggestion to the talkpage of Portal:Belgium, but as no one has responded I'd like to repeat my suggestion here. I think that the "Belgium news" section on the Belgium portal should be transformed into something like the "In the news" section of the New Zealand portal, so that events for which a Wikinews article hasn't been created (yet) can be mentioned in that section as well.--Ganchelkas 13:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brussels pages.

If the City of Brussels relates to the core municipality, and Brussels-Capital Region to the region with all its municipalities, what does Brussels relate to? (please reply here if possible: Talk:Brussels#City or Region ?) - J Logan t: 16:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems quite clear to me.. City relates to the technicalities about the municipality (inhabitants, surface, mayors,..).. Region relates to the region (which is a lot larger than the municipality, clarifying the insitutions of the region and for some bizar reason also something on demographics, probably because that data is specific to the region) and Brussels itself.. just about the greater geographic area (most of the things related to brussels are not confined to the City, or even to the Region).. maybe a metropolitan area (but it's not formally called so). I suggest you familiarize yourself with the belgian federal structure, taking that this division makes sense. Do note that both the City and the Region are linked to in the first paragraph of Brussels, perhaps adding them as disambiguationlinks might be a good idea. ˜˜˜˜ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fisheke (talk • contribs) 17:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CfD nomination of Category:Flemish academics

Category:Flemish academics has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page.

This discussion started on November 28, so don't delay if you wish to participate. Cgingold 01:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needed: Military history of Belgium during World War II

Hi. In looking at Category:Military history of Belgium during World War II it appears that there is no lead article for this. Belgium was a key state in the beginning of the Second World War. If anyone can assist by starting Military history of Belgium during World War II it would fill an important gap. There are many good and reliable sources for this topic. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] European Parliament constituencies

Dear WikiProject Belgium, I am currently going thru the constituencies of the European Parliament. Belgium currently has three EP constituencies, which are designated on Wikipedia by the terms "German-speaking electoral college" [8], "Dutch-speaking electoral college" [9], and "French-speaking electoral college" [10]: hopefully the derivation of the names is obvious. I am trying to find out when these constituencies were first used for European Parliament elections. According to extant Wikipedia articles, the Dutch- and French- speaking constituencies were first used for the 1979 EP elections, and the German-speaking one for the 1994 EP elections. But the articles are unsourced. A Google search shows that the majority of published articles give election details on a Belgium-wide basis, making it difficult to tell what constituencies were used at the time. I will continue to mine Google to see if I can find something, but in the meantime, may I ask you to answer the following questions?

  • When were the German-speaking_electoral_college, French-speaking electoral college and Dutch-speaking electoral college constituencies first used for European Parliament elections?
  • Were there any other Belgium European Parliament constituencies?
  • Is there any obvious source I should be using for these searches?

For the avoidance of doubt, I am aware of the special status of Brussels with regard to these constituencies.

Thank you for your assistance in this matter, Kind regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 17:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I used the following source to create some of those articles: [11] It's unfortunately not available in English, but it lists the results of all elections in Belgium since 1848. You can find the results of elections for the European Parliament by selecting "Les résultats d'une élection précise" (beneath "Par dates") and then selecting "Parlement européen" as "Type d'élection". You can then choose the date of the election of which you want to see the results. The results of the 1979, 1984 and 1989 elections show only two electoral colleges, namely the Dutch and the French-speaking electoral colleges. The 1994 election and all subsequent elections show three electoral colleges (the Dutch, the French and the German-speaking electoral college). So the German-speaking electoral college was first used for the 1994 election. :-) --Ganchelkas (talk) 18:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for that, that was very helpful (and quick!). I will copy this across to the infobox talk pages Template_talk:Infobox_German-speaking_electoral_college,Template_talk:Infobox_Dutch-speaking_electoral_college and Template_talk:Infobox_French-speaking_electoral_college for future reference. Thank you for such a speedy reply. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 21:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latin Europe

Hello WikiProject Belgium! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 20:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Law of Belgium

I just started this stub - right now it is literally two sentences, with a great deal of expansion needed! bd2412 T 05:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there any reason not to call it Belgian law? That seems a more natural title (as per English law and Roman law). Or do legal systems with the Napoleonic code insist that the law is "of" a national law-giver, or something? --Paularblaster (talk) 09:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Date of formation of Belgium?

The editors of the Belgium article have settled on 1830 as being the foundation of the state (I note with concern though that this date lacks any external referencing, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY).

But this article - List of countries by formation dates - claims that the 'Date of statehood' of Belgium was actually 1790 (again, completely unreferenced). Both articles cannot be correct, so which is it? Please come to the party armed with some proper external refs, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY. --Mais oui! (talk) 13:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brussels naming conventions

I've noticed that a lot of edit warring and disputes arise over the names of Brussels related articles. User:Hooiwind and I have devised some naming conventions which are fair, logical, and reduce disputes. We propose putting this banner ({{Brusselsname}}) on the talk page of Brussels-related articles, in particular those with naming disputes:

Flag of the Brussels-Capital Region This article is Brussels related, and should follow the Brussels naming conventions.

Note also the conventions themselves, linked to in the banner. It would be nice if we could reach some sort of consensus. Thoughts? -Oreo Priest talk 21:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's strange to begin an article with another name than the one used in the headline. I think we should use the same naming conventions as places in Finland, where Swedish and Finnish have equal status and the majority language is always mentioned first (see for example Helsinki and Ekenäs). Aaker (talk) 15:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
See Talk:Brussels-Capital Region#Names survey, result for a previous discussion about the names to use for the articles about the Brussels municipalities. Brussels is officially bilingual French and Dutch, the majority in the Brussels-Capital Region is French-speaking. Apparently, the French names are more used in English than the Dutch names, but this isn't always clear. I think both the French and the Dutch names should be given in the first line of the respective articles, but I don't think it's necessary to mention them both all the time (once should suffice). I don't really care about the order in which they are mentioned, it seems better to start with the article title. We should avoid article titles like Arts-Loi/Kunst-Wet metro station and La Roue/Het Rad. Markussep Talk 18:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
You seem to agree with everything except for the order in the first line of the article. That the title only comes second in the first line is exactly to compensate the second language and I don't think it disturbs reading at all (for once, logic has to give way to neutrality, but only in the first line and the infobox). In fact, it is already common practice, so why not just codify it. Also, we have proposed the title to be used throughout the article (so only once both would be mentioned). In practice, this will often turn out to be the French name. That way it enjoys its situation as majority language enough.--Hooiwind (talk) 19:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I also like alternative language being used in the first line of the article. I feel that using the article title first (usually French) makes it seem like the other name (usually Dutch) is somehow subordinate, when the region is officially bilingual and everything has two names. Having said that, using the one name (again, usually French) as the article title and throughout does justice to the fact that French is more predominant in English and the French majority. I also feel strongly the first line and infobox be codified one way or another, because I've seen edit wars over the order, which could easily be prevented. -Oreo Priest talk 20:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested

Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 18:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)