Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Hey there,
I think this is a very interesting project and I've devoted some thought to how it might be done myself. The template you've outlined here offers pretty much the same information as each www.allmusic.com entry, perhaps even a little less. So I don't really think such an undertaking is all that useful. Wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum, and so I don't think we should try to duplicate what is already done, and done well.
What I do think would be useful, and if done well could be really fantastic, is an examination of each album from a slightly broader perspective. In the examination of each album, how about a consideration of its specific influences, specific followers, where it fits in its genre and what leanings it may have toward others, etc? With regard to the Funkadelic albums, I'd much sooner go to allmusic.com for that information than to these wikipedia pages, but allmusic doesn't have the kind of musical matrix information that I think could be really exciting.
What do you think? I'm up for more chat on this topic. -Tubby

Thanks for the input. I have added some of what you wrote to the above. The whole purpose of coming up with a template for Funkadelic stuff was because I know there are lots of info that should be in the articles--each song and album has specific traditions and like associated with it, but I don't know what they are. I was hoping it would draw in others who did have more unique information. I saved it here because the handful of albums that actually had an article in wikipedia seemed like the author didn't know what kind of information would be appropriate to put there, so this is meant as a list of ideas of things that could or should be in an article on an album.

If you are interested, perhaps we could try and accomplish some sort of depth in this field. Perhaps if we found a list of influential albums (many such lists exist), we could divide them up so that each one would get a thorough article. I think having info on recent music would bring a lot of new contributors to Wikipedia. Tokerboy 22:52 Nov 9, 2002 (UTC)

Right on - good idea. There aren't too many newer albums that I could do a 'critical' study on, maybe some Beck or some Stereolab, but yeah, I think if we come up with one or two 'deeper' articles, we could compare them and then hash out some standards. It might be useful to begin with some musics we both have some related interest in. I'm really not that familiar with Parliament and its associated associations, or really much funk at all (my loss), so do you have some other suggestions? I don't feel qualified to tackle huge albums like Zeppelin IV or Sgt. Pepper or Dark Side of the Moon, even though I'm familiar with them, but there should be some middle ground somewhere.
-Tubby

In general, newer albums will probably be more difficult because their impact can not be fully measured yet. Some of David Bowie's stuff was years ahead of its time, for example, and was dismissed as bizarre and stupid until it became a genre ten or fifteen years later.

I'm appended a quite long-list to the Talk page--it's obviously not something the two of us will do, so I am trying to advertise on the mailing list--I think we should each do two or three and add them to a list somewhere here (or on the Talk page), and then we can start discussing standards. Tokerboy 21:03 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)

I've done Highway 61 Revisited, Aquemini, AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted, Ziggy Stardust and The Violent Femmes. Tokerboy 21:57 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)

Please don't create edit links for every song. The vast majority of songs are not famous enough to warrent their own articles (not to mention the problem of finding info to fill these articles). Please also make sure italics and quotes are used where needed. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style. --mav

Excellent work on Highway 61 Revisited and Desolation Row. I'll check out the Violent Femmes later. I've got one quick suggestion so far: I would like to see some information on the structure of the album, like why the songs are in the order they are. That's a fascination of mine, so it may not appeal to others.
I've started compiling some ideas on Paul Simon - Paul Simon, so they should be up in a while.
Tubby

I'm not sure if the order is always something terribly important, but that's a good suggestion. I'm adding it to the above (and revamping it). BTW, I see you are linking to the uncreated article on Paul Simon (album) for his self-titled. I think I agree that Paul Simon should be an exception, but please note that thus far (as at The Violent Femmes and Funkadelic, plus more that I can't remember) self-titled albums are on the same page as the band. Paul Simon's different because he's a person and not a band. Do you think this standard should be changed, or is Paul Simon an exception? (I don't have terribly strong feelings either way)

I'd lean more to having a separate page for a self titled album. It is an album in its own right after all. But yeah, it becomes a problem when trying to classify or arrange or list the album in some larger set. Having it on the same page as the band suggests that perhaps the band and the album share something or have some identity, when that may not be the case. Would you put The White Album/The Beatles on the main Beatles page? Probably not, cause the Beatles are so much more than that album, as good as it is. Anyway, that's my opinion.
I'll write a little more about my opinions on structure later. Nothing serious though..
Tubby

I think you've convinced me. I've created Funkadelic (album) and The Violent Femmes (album) and will do others as I stumble across them. Tokerboy 14:25 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

In case you hadn't noticed, I've spent the last little while writing semi-stubs for musicians on the list with no article. I realized it just seems kinda silly to be writing articles on individual albums when Aretha Franklin, Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye had absolutely no article. I shall return to albums soon. Tokerboy 21:37 Nov 15, 2002 (UTC)

Is it time to work out some more standards or goals? Please feel free to comment on the Paul Simon article I've put together. Eventually I'd like to have a little something something about each song. Good work on those articles that you have written, at least the ones I've read are very well done.
I think some specific thing that I would like to see would be, say, on each album page, two links to other bands or artists that are similar in ways, but a few words on how they are different, and perhaps also a bit of a chronology to it. So, in a perfect world where every album is documented, one could travel back or forward or sideways, reading on one album page the description of related artists, finding stuff that may be more to their liking. However, this could lead to some repetition, with all albums pointing to only two other bands.
-Tubby

What you've got on Paul Simon looks good. My only suggestion is to take the big chunk about one song and put it into paragraphs, one for each song or whatever seems appropriate. I had Aquemini set up like you, and I think it looked a lot better after I changed it (you may wanna look at the very first revision in the history). The analysis itself looks good, very informative.

I've added this to Ziggy Stardust. Tell me what you think of the format. I was thinking about making it a table, but that's tedious and probably wouldn't be that useful.

Precursors: T. Rex - Electric Warrior, The Stooges - Raw Power, The Velvet Underground - The Velvet Underground & Nico

Followers: Queen - Sheer Heart Attack, Mott the Hoople - Mott, The New York Dolls - The New York Dolls

I like this idea, though I suppose there will eventually be some serious disagreements about which to choose. I think aiming for three of each seems good too, though I'd hesitate to make it a rule.

I've gone ahead and made the section above a rough draft. Feel free to comment or make changes. The only thing I'm not sure about is linking to external reviews/listing something like "Rolling Stone: four stars; Source magazine: five mics" or something along those lines. What about amateur reviews? Do you have any ideas about how to handle this? Tokerboy 23:27 Nov 19, 2002 (UTC)

Anyone can find a boat load of reviews on an album just through Google, but idf someone wants to put a useful quote from a review in the article, in order to emphasis a point, or even to offer an opposing alternative, I think that should be encouraged. Major reviews like Rolling Stone or whatever could or should have links, if desired.
Regarding the Followers/Influences thing, I think there should be some description of the differences and similarities between the two bands or albums. The more specific the better. For example, for Ziggy Stardust, if I didn't know T. Rex or Mott the Hoople, I wouldn't know why they were on the list, or how they were different from the Velvets or Queen.
This is a problem that allmusic.com has. I think we should actively try to avoid being like allmusic. We can't realistically hope to match what they do, so we have to be different, or provide more information on the albums we do cover.
The section above looks really good. When people start to get on board, there will definately be some order and regularity to the articles. -Tubby

How about:

Two possible concerns: 1: too much info; 2: this is inherently subjective--I can't prove any of the above Tokerboy 03:31 Nov 21, 2002 (UTC)

Awesome! I think this is absolutely great. With this kind of extensive information, people could do lots of interesting things, like make a map of the progression of music, or rearrange their cd collection, or whatever. I think it would be even better if the release dates for each album were included.
Regarding your concerns:
1. It is a lot of information, but I don't think there's such a thing as too much info. What you've got here is extensive, but it's useful and compelling. Besides, it's a knowledge that a lot of people don't have. Probably only a few people would be able to write such a detailed article.
2. Good point. But, as far as I'm concerned, what you've written is right on. So there must be something that's "right" about what you've written, despite its subjectivity. I'm sure most people who know what's what would also agree with you. And if they don't, so be it, it would be a good chance to discuss these subjective issues and maybe develop an idea further.
I think if we were to try to add objectivity to these write ups, we would have to be as specific as we could. In order to actually make the link between Ziggy and T. Rex, the actual specific sound similarities would have to be detailed, whatever they may be. Consider the "woo-hoo" sound, which began in "Sympathy for the Devil", or earlier, and then also turned up in Blur's "Song 2" and the recent Sheryl Crow tune called "Steve McQueen", and probably other places too. What would those songs be like if it wasn't for "Sympathy for the Devil"? Would they even exist?
Obviously, this kind of meticulous detail is excessive, but I think that those kind of specific sounds do exist and can be tracked and followed. Kind of like a musical meme. Defining certain terms, setting certain characteristics and conventions to terms like "proto-punk" for example, would be especially useful.
-Tubby

I think you're right on all counts. I doubt we'll have many problems with people disagreeing with something along the lines of what I wrote above (though I'm not sure Morrissey is officially a shoegazing or Britpop band), though I'm sure it will occur eventually and someone will make some absurd claim (Britney Spears is heavily influenced by Ziggy Stardust) but we can deal with that when it comes up. I also agree very much about specific sounds ("woo-hoo") being nice, and I'll add them when I can but I don't really know much about music itself, so I couldn't discuss the use of minor chords or Wilsonian harmonies or anything like that. Still, I'll do what I can. I suppose the best part of being a wiki is that if I don't know something, someone else can (and will) pick up the slack. I also think we need articles on genres like proto-punk--there aren't many right now and I'm not really qualified to write them, but I agree that it would be helpful.

Unless you have any other suggestions, I'll go ahead and officially declare the above as WikiProject:Albums Standards 1.0. It seems that we are in agreement on anything. (If you write an article on something that better fits the second category of articles, please replace what's there now because neither of the examples actually fit the recommendations--Bob Dylan and the Violent Femmes are not prog rock, dance music nor symphonic by any stretch of the imagination) Tokerboy 21:53 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)

Just a question in between: What about capitalization? I see you're using different methods. Sometimes every word is capitalized (like in Minutemen: Double Nickles On The Dime) and sometimes not (Midnight Oil: Red Sails in the Sunset). Shouldn't there be one choice? In the articles I started I capitalized every word, so Red Sails In The Sunset already exists. I capitalized only the first word of the songs mentioned in the article (though this might not be the right choice). Dhum Dhum 22:31 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)

The normal practice is to capitalize the first and last words and all other words except articles (a, an, the), conjunctions (and, but, or, nor), prepositions (for, to, through, and so on, and the to in infinitives. (And remember albums in italics, song titles in quotes , as "She Said" from Revolver.) Ortolan88 PS, of course, if there's anything special about the title right on the album, you should copy the album. You know caMel cAse, allonewordlowercase, ALLCAPS, tricks like that.

I've always capitalized "through" and "with" (and probably other conjunctions and prepositions), but if that's the rule I'll try and remember not to. Maybe if I get the chance I'll fix the talk page's list to reflect that, since many are probably wrong (don't blame me, though, I pasted most of it from various other sites). Tokerboy 00:47 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

I lifted that from the Harbrace College Handbook, pretty standard. It says there used to be a fashion for capitalizing longer prepositions like before, between and through, but that is now considered old-fashioned. In fact, I just looked at the Little Brown Handbook which is pretty much the same as Harbrace and one from the 50s that says the longer preps should be capped. So, I think, the rule is pretty much as I stated it. Ortolan88

---

As you may have noticed, I'm fascinated by the chronology of music (and indeed of other things). So I've started a bit of a side project. See 1972 in music. On it I've basically just got a handful of the albums released that year, plus a little write up about Harvest. If this grows into other years and people include some specific innovations, it could develop into something pretty groovy. When does the first mention of punk come up, for example. I took the liberty of redirecting the 1972 link on the Ziggy Stardust article.

Allmusic now has a page for each artist listing Grammy awards and Billboard music chart positions. I think this could be very useful, and have added it to David Bowie as an experiment. I'd like suggestions on formatting, though--it was tedious to do what I did, and it still doesn't look good. I'd like a chart, but it would be time-consuming and difficult to do all that (I think). Does anybody have any ideas? Billboard tracks the US and, I think, Canada. Who does it elsewhere, and is there a way we could easily adapt this information for Wikipedia (If so, it should probably all be moved to a separate page like David Bowie's chart positions or something).Tokerboy 05:03 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)

Wellll..... Random thought:

Year - Song or Album Title
- Chart: Position

For example:

1986 - "You Give Love a Bad Name"
- The Billboard Hot 100: #1
- Mainstream Rock Tracks: #1

I didn't spend a ton of time thinking about this, but I thought I'd toss up a possible starting point.

The Allmusic data is in a simple format. It would be trivial to write a script or program to parse it and spit out the format decided on so we don't have to go through and do this by hand for that massive volume of data. (Somebody had better beat me to this, or else it's going to end up in C++ instead of something sensible like Perl ;).)

I also think it would definitely be a good idea to put this stuff on separate pages, unless we're dealing with an artist/band that has a very short list of releases. That chart data on the David Bowie page makes it unbearably long, IMO. --nknight 09:52 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)

Agreed on all counts and I don't see anything wrong with your format, though I'd suggest the year should link to 1986 in music. I would write a script, but I couldn't do so if my life depended on it. Tokerboy 19:45 Jan 10, 2003 (UTC)

I'd suggest aligning the table holding the album cover to the RIGHT, rather than the left. Left alignment is unusual, feels rather unnatural to me, and results in varying results across browsers which are all rather ugly. Mozilla and derivitives render as shown in http://www.runawaynet.com/~nknight/crushold.jpg (problem area highlighted to better show the details, like text on the image). Konqueror shifts all text as far as the end of the track listing on the Crush page to the right, which is equally ugly and disturbs the flow of the page significantly. Aligning to right results in http://www.runawaynet.com/~nknight/crushnew.jpg, which I think is far more attractive and natural, individual browser glitches aside. -- nknight 13:20 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)

Fine with me. I just arbitrarily picked a side. If right looks better, let's go with right. Tuf-Kat

Is does not appear to be a set image size for the album covers. If there is what is it? - fonzy

I get most of mine from allmusic.com, though I don't think there should be a set size. Some are real detailed and maybe should be bigger so the reader can get an idea for what's there (Sgt. Peppers) and some could be smaller and less intrusive because there's less to see (The White Album) or whatever. Tuf-Kat

Ok, What do we do if there is more than 1 album cover for the same version of the album? -fonzy

No reason not to include them both. Abbey Road has a couple pix from the inside cover, for example. If it helps to establish a social, historical or artistic theme relating to the album, it should be fair use, I think. (IANALAFVGR -- I am not a lawyer and for very good reason) Tuf-Kat

Album Track List

(was CD Track List)

Some CDs have noticeable cultural and/or historically significance, so it may be of interest to list all the tracks on the CD. But, is the complete track listing of every CDs of every non-garage band to be included on Wikipedia?

For example, all CDs of Blink-182 have Wiki-pages, created mostly by one or two anons. But except to the band's zealous fans, none of them is significant. The only Wiki-pages that link to them are just back the Blink-182 page, the members of the band, and a one-phrase mentioning in an "n-year in music".

Are they really encyclopedic (again, except to the fans)? --Menchi 18:11 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I don't think so, you don't think so, 99.9 percent of humanity doesght Oil]]: Red Sails in the Sunset). Shouldn't there be one choice? In the articles I started I capitalized every word, so Red Sails In The Sunset already exists. I capitalized only the first word of the songs mentioned in the article (though this might not be the right choice). Dhum Dhum 22:31 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)

---

Wellll..... Random thought:

Year - Song or Album Title
- Chart: Position

For example:

1986 - "You Give Love a Bad Name"
- The Billboard Hot 100: #1
- Mainstream Rock Tracks: #1

I didn't spend a ton of time thinking about this, but I thought I'd toss up a possible starting point.

Fine with me. I just arbitrarily picked a side. If right looks better, let's go with right. Tuf-Kat

Is does not appear to be a set image size for the album covers. If there is what is it? - fonzy

I get most of mine from allmusic.com, though I don't think there should be a set size. Some are real detailed and maybe should be bigger so the reader can get an idea for what%e." It says that you assert that the copyright holder is willing to release it under the GFDL.

- The images are an exact reproduction of the album covers. I don't think the size really matters.

- The images aren't really the subject of the article -- the album itself is. They're two different copyrighted works. This doesn't seem to be a case of scholarship about the work.

- They're not necessary. They sure make the album pages look fancy, but they don't really add all that much. Is it worth the hassle for the rest of the project to add these gray-area items? I don't think so.

My two cents worth. I'd discourage this stuff. -- ESP 04:58 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Damn. This is an awkward message to reply to :) About the note about "fair use" - it makes it clear to downstream sources, if they're paranoid and states pretty clearly that the image is *not* under the GFDL. About fair use not being clear cut, laws aren't really made to be clear cut; there's always room for a judge's interpretation.

That's fair enough, but fair use is specificly about exceptions, not the rule. w/r/t downstream: you're making more and more of the corpus of Wikipedia non-free, by a reasonable definition of "free" (such as the OSI definition). Including fair-use images makes Wikipedia less free for commercial and personal use downstream, and less free for people in other countries without the United States' fair use precedent. This probably shouldn't be done lightly, if at all. Our primary goal is to make a free encyclopedia.

But the exception is part of the rule; and an important part. As to making the corpus of wikipedia less free; that's if you take the wikipedia as a whole to be a single work, and fine, it is; but it's also a collection of individual works. Nothing makes it less free for personal use; personal use is given more leeway than any public use, commercial or not. I understand the OSI (or rather, DFSG) definition of free and non-free; and yes, a small percentage of my contributions have been non-free. And clearly marked as such. Which is within the guidelines set out on the meta page this page is attached to. And should those guidelines change, it'll be easy to track them down. Of a more pressing nature are the fair use images which have not even got copyright information attached. Our primary goal is to make a free encyclopaedia, but the secondary goal is to make it as good as possible.

As for the covers not being the subject of the article, that's not entirely true. The artwork is part of the overall package of an album, and deserves some discussion. I haven't gotten around to it for most of the articles I've written, but I've never claimed to be finished with any article I've written. And I think that in some cases, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band or Abbey Road being the most notable examples, that the covers are as famous, if not more famous than the music on the albums, and so are (or should be) part of the focus of the article. I have no problem with shifting my focus in that direction if it makes people more comfortable.

I'd say it'd be necessary for any piece of copyrighted work that it be the subject of "scholarship" or "research". Just using the copyrighted work as a decoration for an article doesn't seem to come under the auspices of fair use. The fact that 100% of the work is included is also a bad sign.

To summarise, if the cover is just attached as decoration, there's a flaw in the article. A good album article; and there are few of them as yet; would discuss the package and circumstances of the album as a whole, including the packaging.

As for the covers not being necessary... there's a lot of people trying to make the case that most of the album articles aren't necessary to begin with. Track listings aren't necessary, a list of people who made appearances on the album is not necessary. But they're part of the guidelinentries without the United States' fair use precedent. This probably shouldn't be done lightly, if at all. Our primary goal is to make a free encyclopedia.

As for the covers not being the subject of the article, that's not entirely true. The artwork is part of the overall package of an album, and deserves some discussion. I haven't gotten around to it for most of the articles I've written, but I've never claimed to be finished with any article I've written. And I thinntries without the United States' fair use precedent. This probably shouldn't be done lightly, if at all. Our primary goal is to make a free encyclopedia.

As for the covers not being the subject of the article, that's not entirely true. The artwork is part of the overall package of an album, and deserves some discussion. I haven't gotten around to it for most of the articles I've written, but I've never claimed to be finished with any article I've written. And I thinverything I did (even yesterday), so it may take a while. I don't think it's going to happen though; it's not just album articles which will be affected, and this sort of discussion seems to come up every two or three months, and the status quo wins -- Jim Regan 20:56 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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