Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Novel categorization
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[edit] Novel categorization discussion
This is your place to talk about the specific issue surrounding the categorization of Novel articles. I would expect this to include, creation of categories, and stub templates and how to best use them in specific instances. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 09:51, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Project request for genre
This is a topic started by Eagle (talk) (desk)
The argument is that a genre section should be added to the Wikibook template. The primary purpose of this addition is to help us categorize book and mainly novel articles. As it is right now, some of the articles and the majority of the stubs don't even mention what genre the book is in. This in my experience makes things very difficult if not impossible to categorize things.Eagle (talk) (desk) 16:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] A link to the request on WikiProject Books
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books#Template---Eagle (talk) (desk) 16:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion Below
After there was little or no discussion - I have made the changes necessary to add Genre or Subject (for non-fiction) to the template. These are both optional as there are each applicable one for fiction and the other for non-fiction. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 09:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Which Genre should we have
Further to the ideas on the General Forum. What genres should we have I have thought to set up what I think are the main one. Do we need more and what would be a full set. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 09:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] There has been an question raised about Genre list
I propose we have a project list of genre we recognise and recommend people use when describing the Novel, and filling the "Genre" parameter of the infobox. I have been using the list on Literary genre but that appears to be a bit loose, either in name used and or what is included or excluded. I think if we immediately include this on the Main Project page under the Hierarchy definition it would swamp it.
Ok, based on the article mentioned above I would propose we use the following:
Any comments please to this article talk page, then agreed adjustments here, then we can talk aboust how to best publish / advertise our list and its use. Please bear in mind this is realy to be a current list to assist in categorise articles, and their infobox "genre" parameter, but as we add Stub Notices then they would potentially end up in the Hierarchy Definition table. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 12:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
What if it is more than one??? Lady Nimue of the Lake 07:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
- Make your seperate questions at the end of the page, giving each a section! Thanks. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 07:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
My 2 cents:
- Please, let us NOT use "bodice rippers" as a genre category. I know the phrase is widely used, but I don't want to dignify a term that smacks of sexual assault with a category. Can we just leave them in "Romance fiction"? (which, btw, is different from "Romantic fiction", which is part of a literary movement).
- "Comic novel" rather than "comedy novel" or "humorous novel", is the term most used to describe fiction that is funny. Her Pegship 22:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
- And please (as I mentioned on the general talk page before I found this one) may we have a horror-novel-stub category? I would be happy to accomplish that. Cheers, Her Pegship 22:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The list looks pretty good from what I can see, and this list is what I have been using, just three things:
- Political thriller should probably be included in legal thriller.
- The whole bodice rippers/erotic thing should fit into romance novels, unless the category becomes overly large at some future point in time and further subdivision is deemed necessary.
- I believe that comedy novel should suffice for the moment, as the genre is generally defined as "comedy", both in literature and film. Humorous novels would probably be a good substitute if that is necessary, but calling the category "comic novel" is just going to have some people getting it confused with graphic novels. -- Gizzakk 12:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Nice to get some response here
- My view would be that Political Thriller is a subset of Political Novels rather than Legal although some novels do cross over btween the subjects, calling one the other is likly to be missleading.
- Erotic and romance are very different genre. Romance with sex, is not the same as Eroticism with a veneer of romantic. A very modern idea that they can be thought of in the same breath.
- Comedy v Comic - I couldn't agree more the confussion the word comic brings up should be avoided.
Just my view of course. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- What is the latest on implementing this genre list? I feel this is much-needed, and probably should be located on the Infobox template page for reference. TAnthony 02:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] More Categories
I think more categories are needed like, Adventure novels and comedy novels , parody novels etc.What do you think?--Dwaipayanc 06:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Uhh hold off of that idea for the moment, the WP:SFD people are already trying to delete the ones we have now!!! Great enthusiam though!!!Eagle (talk) (desk) 05:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think this should be not too related as we are only at the moment talking of establishing a definitive list of Genre / categories for editors to make use of in article and particularly in the "Genre" parameter of the infoboxes. Once we have established "the" set we can think if we need to establish any more Stub. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 07:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
Not seeing it here, but how is non-fiction represented? PeregrineV 17:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
It isn't, because this is a novels (i.e. fiction) project. You might want to take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Books. Her Pegship 22:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Don't read much non-fiction but want to be fair to what I do read. PeregrineV 16:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Just as a suggestion, what if we put something like 'adult books', 'teenage fiction' ratings on the article so that the inspired readers who instantly want to go off know what they're diving into?Lady Nimue of the Lake 08:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Generally it is assumed that the book is for "adult's" (not the dubious content meaning of that word) unless the genre has [[Children's literature|Children's novel]] or [[Young adult novel]] assigneded. And / or category's Category:Children's novels or Category:Young adult novels assigned. So this should not be needed as such. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] User:Gnome (Bot)---Proposed on WT:BOT
Gnome bot is a bot programmed in C++/CLI. The bot is capable of running any regex operation, making it good for working with stubs and categories, as will as anything else that requires something added, or removed, or changed.
- As of now I propose to use it to help sort WP:NOVEL stubs.
- I believe that the matter is a bit urgent as some people are beginning to delete WP:NOVEL stubs, (the articles are there, just someone needs to actually do it) If you want to see for yourself look at WP:SFD---right now 3 are up for deletion.
- The bot already has a page, will put this stuff up on there,
- It can be shut off by posting a message on ITS talk page, NOT MINE.
- The code looks for <new message, in the html.
- The bot will run for as long as it takes to go through the Novel and Book categories. For the purpose of the Debug, I will do far less than the proposed actions.
- The bot is automated, and running with very strict regex formula's. (for the debug, I will be on hand to make sure that it does as I say it does)(I can manually tell it to skip an article if the regex is wrong)And than go and fix the regex:-).
- I hope I hit all of the points, scream at me if I did not :-) Eagle (talk) (desk) 05:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
I posted all of that, just to give everyone here the heads up, as the only person I have spoken to so far is Kevinalewis.
P.S. As it is I am very upset with the WP:SFD people after Kevinalewis told me what they were doing.
[edit] Book stubs that are novel stubs
I am right now regexing for potential Novel stubs in book stubs. I will, when I am done post a list wikilinked of the pages on a user subpage. That way humans can make sure that only novel stubs are moved. (A bot really should not be used, because of a few potential regex mistakes.) Perhaps someone with AutoWikiBrowser can do the work. (My bot is only automated).Eagle (talk) (desk)
- as of the O's there are 133 potential novel stubs in book stubs.Eagle (talk) (desk) 00:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- as of the beginning of the T's there are 270 articles that fitEagle (talk) (desk) 01:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
- There are 587 that fit the critiria
- Dealt with the first 25. So far to go! :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 10:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Category:Philosophical novels
I have started a discussion to try and refine the criteria notice for the Category:Philosophical novels on Category talk:Philosophical novels. If you would like to contribute, please reply there. Thanks! --Syrthiss 13:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest just BE BOLD!!!---this project is still in its infancyEagle (talk) (desk) 19:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
- Actually,between me and 2 other editors we collectively were bold and changed the criteria... but this at least reminds me that I said I was going to go through and try and check the contents whether they fit in the criteria. Thanks! --Syrthiss 19:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Horror novel stub proposed
Please feel free to put your 2 cents in at the stub proposals page. Thanks! Her Pegship 05:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Novels by country categories
Currently the list of Categories for assignment by country run as follows. Do we have any glaring omissions?
Seems pretty good to me, if you look at the page, you will notice a few more countries that contain only a few novel links(Colombian, Khazkastani, etc); but I added these just for the sake of completeness. I expect that we will add more categories for smaller countries as we continue to expand. -- Gizzakk 20:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Science fiction books/novels stubs
We have Cat:Science fiction books and {{sf-book-stub}}, which is for anthologies and books about the science fiction genre. We also have Cat:Science fiction novels and {{sf-novel-stub}}, for actual novels which are science fiction. However, {{sf-novel-stub}} redirects to {{sf-book-stub}}! I just wanted to give anyone a heads-up that I'm going to un-redirect it and make the distinction clearer. Anyone else who wants to help re-sort the titles, come on down. Cheers, ♥ Her Pegship♥ 16:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for this carification, because I'm about to start on a book of short sci-fi stories. This would be a book as opposed to a novel, correct? PeregrineV 05:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- Correct. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 07:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cat: year book to Cat: year novel
We are moving novels that are in (Category: year book) to (Category: year novel)? I've been doing so, but was asked and I can't find confirmation here. Grey Shadow 01:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- I have been assiting in this move as well as have many others. I don't know who set up the catagories, but they are easily viable. My view is if the boook is a novel, ie. long fiction narrative form it should be in this set by date of publication. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 06:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
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Can the template itself be updated to reflect this?PeregrineV 16:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Done.
[edit] Moving Books to Novels
I've started working my way through the Cat: year books, to move novels into the Cat: year novels. I've done a bunch randomly, but have now decided to work from Cat:1900 books forward.
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- Years Cat:1900 books to Cat:1909 books completed. Grey Shadow 15:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Years Cat:1910 books to Cat:1919 books completed. Grey Shadow 03:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Years Cat:1920 books to Cat:1925 books completed. Grey Shadow 12:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Years Cat:1926 books to Cat:1929 books completed. Grey Shadow 08:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Years Cat:1930 books to Cat:1949 books completed. Grey Shadow 11:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Years Cat:1950 books to Cat:1958 books completed. Grey Shadow 12:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- Years Cat:1959 books to Cat:1964 books completed. Grey Shadow 22:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
- Years Cat:1965 books to Cat:1997 books completed. Things are progressing faster now that I'm using AWB. Grey Shadow 13:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone help with The Magical Monarch of Mo. I'm not sure if it's a novel, or a bunch of short stories. Thanks! Grey Shadow 11:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Appears to me to be "Short Stories" although many refer to it as a novel, but they appear to do so very, very losely. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Children's book
Five Children and It is listed as a Children's book. Would you class it as a novel? Grey Shadow 12:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Having read that one, Yes! It is slightly episodic in format but it is clearly in novel style. The article needs a bit of work so I can have a crack at that! Unless you prefer to of course. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Changed it to novel. I'll let you do it having never read it myself. Grey Shadow 13:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- More work don on it. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 14:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Changed it to novel. I'll let you do it having never read it myself. Grey Shadow 13:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Another one. The Tale of Squirrel Nutkin, a novel? Grey Shadow 13:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Although normally published separately I would suggest that is a "Short Story" or at best "Novelette" not sure if you are familier with the series but all BPs books are picture books with an associated narrative. If I remember correctly they tend to have a full page picture for every 1 to 3 pages of text, and each of those have perhaps a max of 40 words. Small dimension books as well. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 13:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not very familiar with the series. I may have had some read to me when I was very young, but don't remember any details. I'll leave it in the Cat:1903 books. Grey Shadow 13:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've left all BP's stories from 1900 to 1909 in {Cat:year books}.Grey Shadow 15:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not very familiar with the series. I may have had some read to me when I was very young, but don't remember any details. I'll leave it in the Cat:1903 books. Grey Shadow 13:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sketches: novels or not?
Mostly written by 19th and 20th century humourists, books of "sketches" are somewhat between what could be a short story collection and a conventional novel. They have overlapping series of characters & often setting. They generally follow a linear timeline (with the outcome of one sketch influencing what happens later) and sometimes have plot elements that span more than one sketch though they don't have an overarching plot that regular novels have. Examples are Leacock's Sunshine Sketches of a Little Town and Arcadian Adventures with the Idle Rich, Sketches by Boz and The Pickwick Papers by Dickens, and The Clockmaker by Haliburton. I notice that Pickwick Papers is treated as a novel, but Sunshine Sketches isn't. So what do all of you think? I vote novels because regular short stories are discrete entities moreso than are sketches (though to be fair, they were often originally published discretely in serial form). Of course some books of sketches are more cohesive than others. It's a little tricky.--Ibis3 17:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- The whole question of short stories is a moot one, however in this case I would personally vote "Novel" too. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Under that definition, I suppose A Sportsman's Sketches would count as a novel too? It's got the same theme and overlapping characters, at least. Also, since we are on the topic of short stories, The Torrents of Spring and First Love (novella) are of about the same length, but categorized differently — the former as a short story and the latter as a novel. So how do we categorize these? (just to give you an idea of their length, here's The Torrents of Spring) --AVIosad 07:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
See, an ongoing debate on this subject area at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/GeneralForum#Project_Scope_and_Short_Stories. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cat:Novels by publisher
Do we really want to go there??? Recently created by someone who (kindly, I hope) has been creating "requested" categories right and left. Pegship 12:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- No, I don't think we want to go there! The publisher is significant only for detailing the notable "first edition" but little else. The initial publisher's editor contributes to a greater or lesser extent to the resultant work, but lists of titles by publisher is only of any notability when the list itself becomes of renown. (e.g. Ace Books, Penguin Modern Classics) and even these are quite debateable. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 12:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Uncategorised novel stubs
There seem to be large numbers of novel stubs missing categories in general (other than the stub type), and genre and year-of-publication categories in particular. If there's anyone working on categorisation of novels, I might be able to assist by populating maintenance categories, such as Cat:Uncategorised novels (or Cat:Uncategorised novel stubs if you want to be more specific), Cat:Year of publication category needed, and the like. Comments? Alai 16:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- sounds an interesting idea. Can you give a few examples to illustrate what you might intent. How would this fix in with the Category:Uncategorised books. thanks :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 17:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
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- What sort of examples are you looking for? There's not much point in populating such a category by hand, the benefit is in doing it automatedly on a large scale. I'd have thought the relationship between a novel and a book would be fairly clear: if you'd prefer the two be merged, and the novel-stubs lacking (all permanent) categories placed in Cat:uncategorised books, that's equally easy from my point of view, whichever you'd prefer. (A new category might mitigate complaints about the old one being suddenly swamped, though equally, it might not immediately get much attention from the "regulars".) Likewise the year-of-pub-missing categories could be done for all books, or for novels specifically. Alai 17:35, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Ok, point taken - go back to the way you were originally thinking and maybe we could start with a straightforward Cat:Uncategorised novels and see how successful that is. Partly for editing clarity (more easily distinguished from true categories), would it be better to support the population of category but inserting a {{uncategorised-novel}} template in the style of {{uncategorised}}. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 08:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Books/works/etc. by author categories
Cross-posted to Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories) (this is where the November discussion was), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Books
I know this has been hashed over before. Each of the sub-cats of Cat:Works by artist has its own style, but they are relatively consistent within their sub-cats, and I for one would like to apply a consistent style for written works. I have done a count: of the 344 sub-cats of written works by author (books, short stories, novels, etc.), 162 sub-cats are named [X] by [Name] or [X] of [Name] and 182 are named [Name] [Xs]. If we can't agree on aesthetics, can we at least go with the numbers (i.e. [Name] [Xs])? Any thoughts? Her Pegship (tis herself) 21:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(categories)#The_Return_of_Works_by_Artist... should be the single place to debate this. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion about "series of" and "novels in series"
There's a bid to merge Cat:Series of fantasy books + Cat:Fantasy books by series, and likewise for fantasy novels, going on over at CfD Her Pegship (tis herself) 03:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] British novel? English novel? Neither?
This may have been discussed somewhere before, but after scanning dozens of long pages such as Wikipedia:Categorization, Wikipedia:Categorization and subcategories, this one here, and all their corresponding talk pages, and now being none the wiser, my rather simple question (not rhetorical) is this:
What is the point of having a Category:British novels and a Category:English novels if both are removed from an article on a British / English novel (A Heritage and Its History)?
For my previous confusion on this subject, see this discussion on my talk page and the arguments propounded at this deletion request, both of which I found only partly enlightening.
Unless I get an answer soon, I'm going to post a copy of the above at Wikipedia talk:Categorization. (Sounds like a threat, but I'm just reading another detective novel.) <KF> 14:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Epic Fantasy, etc.?
Should there be any (hence the etc.) subheadings of fantasy in this list, or should they all bbe grouped under Fantasy like they are now? the_ed17 16:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
