Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Posada

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[edit] Battle of Posada

Even if it's a quite short article, I think it could meet the requirements in my opinion. However, suggestions and comments would be welcome. --Eurocopter (talk) 16:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks decent, with a few potential tweaks. If only for visual appeal, it should not be one block of text. I'd end the introduction with "For Wallachia, the victory meant the continual survival of the young state". Logically, then, the first point is the background of alliances, enmities, events, etc. before the battle. "In 1324, Wallachia was a vassal of Hungary, and Robert referred to Basarab as "our Transalpine Voivode."[3] That might start with "The war started with encouragement from the Voivode of Transylvania[5] and a certain Dionisie, who later bore the title Ban of Severin.[3] In 1330, Robert captured the Wallachian citadel of Severin and handled it to the Transylvanian Voivode."
The location needs to move down, perhaps to a heading Preliminaries and Battle.[5] Basarab sent envoys that asked for the hostilities to cease, and in return offered to pay 7,000 marks in silver, submit the fortress of Severin to Robert, and send his own son as hostage.[5] According to the Viennese Illuminated Chronicle, a contemporary account, Robert would have said about Basarab: He is the shepherd of my sheep, and I will take him out of his mountains, dragging him off his beard. Another account writes that Robert said that he will drag the Voivode from his cottage, as would any driver his oxen or shepherd his sheep.[5]
Even a brief Aftermath and significance section would help. You might restate the victory from the introduction. Add, minimally, the last sentence, and perhaps a bit more about the balance of regional power afterwards. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 17:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Length is not generally a problem, but as Howard points out, it should still really be divided into sections - he suggests "Background," "Battle" and "Aftermath," and that seems logical to me. The image that currently appears at the top left corner should probably be moved, as well. Carom (talk) 17:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Would it be possible to extend the lead somewhat? Carom (talk) 18:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I expanded it a bit and think it covers now all the sections. Would there be anything else? --Eurocopter (talk) 20:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: Remove the images of the commanders from the infobox. Wikify the use of bold text. Give the sources and dates of all images in their descriptions. Is this battle just such a short affair without any scholars researching the battle dispositions? And the numbers should be based on a historians work(with a reference!) since 30,000 Medieval soldiers being all killed by 10,000 shepherds without military training sounds like a fairytale. Wandalstouring (talk) 19:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you read carefully the article before commenting. Of those 10,000 wallachian warriors, about 70-80% were sheperds. Anyway, they succeded because they set up an ambush in which those "medieval soldiers" became an easy target, as the Wallachians were throwing with stones and trees from the top of the mountains over them. The strategy of this battle is very similar to the one used by Henry V in the Battle of Agincourt, where the English army numbering only 5,900 men came victorious over a 30,000 men French Army. While the French lost in combat about 10,000 men, English casualties numbered only 112. So I wouldn't call Battle of Posada a "fairy tale", since we have other famous similar battles, fought in almost exactly the same way. Regarding the other points, i'll try to fix them as soon as possible. --Eurocopter (talk) 19:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Agincourt was against trained soldiers(widely regarded as the elite of medieval archers, plus the infantry fought in a morast that hindered movement of the heavier armed French troops and thus allowed archers and billmen to kill them with swift attacks), not a levy of untrained shepherds and peasants (these were also unlikely to attack with swords, a weapon that does require a lot of training). Where is the source about how many were not professional soldiers and what were the arms of these professionals? I can read that it was an ambush, but still killing 30,000 with 10,000 is rather difficult. If there is a large contingent of archers(light infantry can be used with minimal training in formations as long as they have plenty of experience in aiming with their distance weapon) it could work(for example shepherds using the bow and shooting from above, that gives the arrow enough power to penetrate a gambeson), but that is the only weapon in medieval warfare that could do this. So all in all, it would be desireable if you found more sources on how exactly the troops were composed. Wandalstouring (talk) 16:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, read the article carefully before making such comments. Basarab's army was not formed of a "levy of untrained shepherds". As stated in the article, Basarab's army numbered less than 10,000 men and comprised of cavalry, pedestrian archers and some locally recruited peasants and shepherds. And, the source is mentioned. --Eurocopter (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I can READ. You just mentioned that 70-80%("about 70-80% were sheperds") of his force were the levy. Where is THAT sourced? Wandalstouring (talk) 18:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
And to make this article finally achieve A class you should try to find out how the Hungarian army was composed. I know that they were composed of lots of crossbow archers and heavy cavalry when facing the Mongols, but I don't know how it was at Posada. Furthermore the levy requires some more information whether in Wallachia the peasants and shepherds were allowed to hunt and use weapons(in many medieval European states these were restricted). Another point is the amarment of the Wallachian archers. On the contemporary images it looks like they wield recurve bows. Is that correct? A big question is how the entrapping was achieved. I think that small contingents of heavily armed warriors were needed to trap the Hungarians in the pass, but that's only guesswork. Wandalstouring (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I was wrong when I stated that the Wallachian army was composed of 70% shepherds. Djuvara says the Hungarian army is actually the main Hungarian army, excepting a contingent which was sent in Poland. I don't know if this should be mentioned in the article or not. The shepherds were recruited by Basarab on his way to the location of the battle, so were automatically allowed to carry weapons. However, in the XIV century Wallachia was a poor organized young state, so of course anyone was allowed to hunt and use weapons. Regarding the other details, i'll have a look over the sources, but I doubt such fine details are available. --Eurocopter (talk) 18:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Sounds fine.
1.It would greatly benefit the article if you found out how many professional soldiers Basarab I had. I'm sure there are some estimates since we do know how much money he was willing to offer. A short note that Wallachian peasants were allowed to carry arms and that the country wasn't very organized would help to give the reader a better picture of the situation.
2. How did this defeat affect Hungary. Did the army composition or total number of troops change afterwards(and what was it during the battle)? Did they become more peaceful towards their neighbours? Did the king rule without much opposition because many nobles were dead? Was the king the only one to make good his escape?
3. What kind of weapons did the Wallachians wield(bows, polearms, long knifes, some swords)? They are depicted with recurve bows. Were these small or large recurve bows(could the same bows be used on horseback or not?Wandalstouring (talk) 09:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
1.The only information we have is already mentioned in the article, "Basarab's army was formed of pedestrian archers, cavalry and some locally recruited peasants and shepherds". Sincerelly, a note that Wallachian peasants were allowed to carry weapons would be absurd in our case and not at all appropiate. We already mentioned in the article that Wallachia was a young country, and however, details about XIV century Wallachia can be found in the Wallachia main article.
2.Of course this battle didn't represent such a big disaster for Hungary, which was one of the most powerfull kingdoms in Europe at that time. Of course the Romanian source which I cited (Djuvara) doesn't give many details regarding the aftermath of the Hungarian side. Also I see no connection of King's rule after the battle with this article, as eventual internal problems resulting from this battle would have nothing to do with this article (as it would not necessary represent the aftermath).
3.Information available states that Wallachian pedestrian used bows. Actually, there was some controversies that the Wallachian warriors would have used lances, but this was later denied by Djuvara stating that this was imposible because the lance can be used only once, in close combat. --Eurocopter (talk) 16:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
3. That a lance can only be used once in close combat is new to me. It depends on where the enemy is hit(ribcage is the area were lances and other pointy weapons are sometimes trapped).
1,2&3. OK, your source dosn't mention all that. So try to get more sources, what you present is rather meagre regarding research.Wandalstouring (talk) 15:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
You misunderstood me. We don't have that information because it doesn't exist! Djuvara's work gathers all possible available sources. We don't even know the location of the battle, how the heck can we know such fine details as if the bows were recurve small or large? However, seems that you don't want this article to be promoted, as you keep asking silly questions. I will stop wasting my time, so just tell me, which WP:FACR it doesn't meet?--Eurocopter (talk) 16:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Stop bickering. If this article was good someone would already have given support for its promotion. The issue with the bows is just minor, but good research could provide the answer. I don't think it is fit for A-class, but I try to help you. However, if researching the issue is too difficult, I can try that too, but this will take me some time because I have to finish other wikiwork. Wandalstouring (talk) 16:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Some more sources:
Dr. Constantin Rezachevici, Lupta lui Basarab I cu Carol Robert în Banatul de Severin..., în „Magazin istoric”, nr. 4 (289) din aprilie 1991, pp. 51 - 54.
Florin-Nicu Smărăndescu, ... sau pe Valea Prahovei?, în „Magazin istoric”, nr. 4 (289) din aprilie 1991, pp. 55 - 56.
I think they probably discuss the location, but could contain useful info.
Bertényi Iván: Magyarország az Anjouk korában, Gondolat – 1987, ISBN 9633817761
Képes Krónika (Hasonmás kiadás), Helikon – 1987
I'm sure there are more recent Hungarian works.
The cronica lui Johann de Thurocz does also contain a section on the battle. Wandalstouring (talk) 16:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
In 1324 there was an encounter between Basarab and Charles in which the Wallachian forces were defeated. That should be part of the background because it was also a dispute centered around Severin.
In 1337 Charles was in alliance with Poland against the Holy Roman Empire and Habsburg. After such a crushing defeat it is worth mentioning.Wandalstouring (talk) 16:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Under the Hungarian successor the struggle continued, plus Wallachia was still officially under the Hungarian suzeranity. Wandalstouring (talk) 09:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Rezachevici is cited 9 times in Djuvara's book, and Johann de Thurocz also. Unfortunately, i'm unable to speak hungarian. However, Djuvara also gathered the most important Hungarian sources and chronicals. --Eurocopter (talk) 16:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Try for example to quote directly what the primary sources say (look at Jean d'Arc for example). The Romanian wiki is full of quotes, perhaps there is something that can be used. Also the battles before and after this event should be mentioned as suggested and the legal status against the de facto status of Wallachia. I found a source on the arms in Eastern Europe during this time, however, it is not available in a library on the continent, so it will take some time to add info. Wandalstouring (talk) 12:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Objection and a to do list:
  • Background: Mention Wallachian defeat in 1324 and the resulting suzeranity of Hungaria. Plus that this conflict was already about Severin.
  • Battle: The narrative of the battle doesn't make sense. How can Wallachian warriors attack with swords when they are above the Hungarians, shooting arrows and throwing stones? Please check your sources whether there is any mention of one or two small contingents blocking the escape routes. Theory of the attack with lances should be briefly discussed(how did it originate and why is it dismissed).

The cronica lui Johann de Thurocz depicts a cavalry battle. Please check this source whether there is a description of cavalry encounters(entrace and exit?).

  • Aftermath: Mention that Hungaria is in 1337 again at war, this time with the Holy Roman Empire, thus has rebuilt its army(short note about the immense financial power possible). Mention the de facto independence and the de jure suzeranity of the Hungarian king until the diplomatic dispute is solved (1340?).

Mention that under Charles's (died 1342) successor the military conflict with the Hungarian king would continue.

  • Location of the battle: Create new section after the aftermath and mention the four theories where the battle possibly took place.

Check these sources for information and check the literature your sources used:

  1. Dr. Constantin Rezachevici, Lupta lui Basarab I cu Carol Robert în Banatul de Severin..., în „Magazin istoric”, nr. 4 (289) din aprilie 1991, pp. 51 - 54.
  2. Florin-Nicu Smărăndescu, ... sau pe Valea Prahovei?, în „Magazin istoric”, nr. 4 (289) din aprilie 1991, pp. 55 - 56.
  • Armament: I found a source on the topic and thus possibly a section can be provided, however, a minor issue.
  • Legal status of the peasants and shepherds: Whether or not they were allowed to carry arms has nothing to do how young a nation is. If they were allowed to have arms in contrast to other European subjects, than provide this with a source.
    • Unfortunately no such source exist. Since they were fighting, of course they could carry arms. Just tell me a XIV century state, in which the use of arms was prohibited (sourced).
  • Citations: provide some appropriate citations from the primary sources (example: Jean d'Arc).

If you have done all demanded in this to do list (except the armament) then I have no more objections against promoting it to A class.Wandalstouring (talk) 09:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Sincerelly, we shouldn't mention those four theories regarding the location of the battle because at least two of them are completely wrong (Djuvara concluded that the locations of Prahova and Argeş should be excluded).--Eurocopter (talk) 16:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. As long as these theories exists we have to mention them, especially since other historians made them. If your source proves it wrong, we have to show how this sources proves the mistake. Wandalstouring (talk) 16:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't agree with this, introducing false information in the article may disinform. So, i'd rather let this article fail this review rather than continue with this false. Just think, why would an army coming from Visegrád (going to Curtea de Argeş) choose a 600km-longer route through Valea Prahovei? Let's be serious.. --Eurocopter (talk) 16:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Did a historian create this theory? Yes or no? Wandalstouring (talk) 17:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I suggest we include in this article all possible errors and misinformations made by historians through the time. --Eurocopter (talk) 17:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I assume that the source for Djuvara, Neagu. is actually Thocomerius - Negru Voda. Un voivod de origine cumana la inceputurile Tarii Romanesti (Bucharest: Humanitas. ISBN 978-973-50-1731-6) as this doesn't appear to be available in English. As this article is heavily reliant on this source, can you please make sure it complies with WP:RSUE? --ROGER DAVIES talk 20:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure it complies with WP:RSUE, as Djuvara is widely regarded as one of the best Romanian contemporany historians. --Eurocopter (talk) 21:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. That's not the point as you'd see if you read the link :) It's about providing original text and translations for key material. This is easy enough to do using a second set of footnotes. This isn't a whim on my part by the way, it's policy. --ROGER DAVIES talk 21:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Y Done, have a look. --Eurocopter (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The policy is impossible to obey because there are no English sources available. I think it is OK. Wandalstouring (talk) 09:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
How is it impossible to obey? WP:RSUE says to use English-language sources, if available, in preference to foreign language ones and, if using foreign language sources, to cite the original foreign language text for bits likely to be challenged. That seems very doable to me, and I see Eurocopter tigre has in fact done it. --ROGER DAVIES talk 10:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
He is quoting 24 pages and only a fraction of the text is given here. Wandalstouring (talk) 11:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I see what you mean ... that's always the case with cites though, trying to provide pointers for controversial stuff. It's a very hit and miss business, no matter what language :) --ROGER DAVIES talk 11:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. On the infobox title it says Slaughter of Posada when the article's name is Battle of Posada, it would be good if you changed it. Also in the lead it says Carol Robert. Does this refer to Charles Robert and if so it would be good if you could change it to keep consistancy. Kyriakos (talk) 04:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.