Wikipedia:WikiProject Greece/Peer review/Eleftherios Venizelos

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[edit] Eleftherios Venizelos

Since February I have been editing this article, and for some reason I am almost the only one. I am relative new here in WP and I would like to request from other people to check the progress done so far. Any kind of comments are welcomed.A.Cython (talk) 00:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yannismarou

And you have done a great job! Further suggestions:

  • "was one of the greatest statesmen of modern Greece", "Venizelos defined an entire era in Greek history, and is still a point of reference in Greek politics today." I would not say that this is POV, but in my biographies I avoid such strong assessments, relying on facts and concrete historical assessments by prominent scholars (see for instance the Pericles' lead). But this may just be a personal preference!
  • The lead may need some expansion per WP:LEAD; it should be a comprehensive summary of the whole article.
  • Try to have at least one citation in each paragraph.
  • "In 1935, after a failed coup attempt, he left from Chania once again into self-imposed exile in Paris. A year later, in 1936, on 18 March, the "light of the Great man went out"." Try not to be repetitive. This is also mentioned at the end of the article. And I am not sure if the "Personal life" section is well-placed. You analyze his political life, and in the middle of it you speak about his personal life from 1891 to 1935, and then you continue with the political life. And 1920 etc. has nothing to do with his "early life" as the section's heading is. Maybe a solution is to place the "personal life" as a separate section at the end of the biography, checking that you avoid repetitions. And maybe you should mention that Sophoklis also followed a political career (you don't even wikilink him!).
  • I unlinked "Enosis" - the article is about Cyprus - maybe you should think about creating a stub about Crete.
  • "he Ottoman Empire, in reaction to the rebellion of Crete and the assistance sent by Greece, relocated a significant part of its army in the Balkans to the north of Thessaly, close to the borders with Greece.[citation needed]" There is a request for citation here.
  • Throughout the article the wikilinking could be improved. Interesting links missing.
  • His "Political Career in Crete" is overanalyzed compared to the following sections. I see you try to make in the following sections a use of [{WP:SS]], but this should also be the case in the above section as well. In any case, there should be a balanced analysis in terms of length throughout the article.
  • "In August 1909 the Military League". What is that? Explain for the ignorant reader with very few words. The linking to the main article is not enough.
  • Prose problems exist throughout the article. This is an example:"In August 1909 the Military League, displeased with the social and military status quo, carried out action against the government, followed through into a type of lockout in the Athenian suburb of Goudi. Even thought it did not overturn the government with a coup d'etat, it forced the Dimitrios Rallis' government to resign and a new one was formed with Kiriakoulis Mavromichalis. ". It is not just the repetitions; the reader throughout the article gets the impression that the prose is not of a native English speaker. Some copy-editing will be needed.
  • "Venizelos ordered, long before the liberation of the city, the transport of the Cretan Gendarmerie to Thessaloniki.[citation needed] " Again a request for citation.
  • Link full dates date-month-year throughout the article. You are not consistent.
  • Some main articles links of you are not IMO in accord with WP:SS. Your World War I section is not a summary of the WP article [{World War I]], but an analysis of what Venizelos did during this war! I think more of these main articles links of you should be reconsidered. Read carefully WP:SS!
  • There is no analysis of Venizelos' conduct after his return on 1917. For instance, Karolidis accuses him of dictatorial attitude. And I also see nothing about the Dragoumis execution. The criticism against Veizelos and his environment for this period should not be omitted.
  • The 1928-1932 period definitely needs more analysis in terms of both internal and external policies, as well as the reasons for his defeat in 1932.
  • "The pro-royalist tendencies of the government led to an attempted military coup in March 1935, under the leadership of Venizelos and General Nikolaos Plastiras." I think that some further analysis of this controversial decision of Venizelos (maybe the most controversial of his political career) and some historical assessments is needed.
  • In the "See also" list what Greek military junta of 1967-1974 or metapolitefsi have to do with Venizelos?

More work is needed but the article is on the right track.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Some more suggestions:
  • I think a "legacy" section at the end of the article would be very useful. What is the heritage of Venizelos and what is velizelism exactly? Is Venizelos' legacy present in modern Greek politics? Are modern Greek parties evoking him? And how do we assess as a whole his decisions?
  • Some more issues: Does he bear any responsibility for the defeat in Minor Asia? What the historians say about his decision to go to elections in 1920? You should possibly also mention the fact that he lost the elections, although he had the popular vote.
  • "Venizelos assumed the leadership of the Greek delegation that negotiated peace terms with the Turks." I think that we need more about his role in Lausanne, the importance of his presence, his strategy, and his negotiations with Inonou.
  • Make sure that you include in your references the full data of your inline sources as well (the templates Template:cite web and Template:cite news would be helpful maybe).--Yannismarou (talk) 10:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
A.Cython

Yannismarou, your comments will keep me busy for the next two months :) , however, I want to add some comments and questions.

  • I am relative new to wikipedia, and I am not sure about certain things. e.g. you mention dates, should I wikilink all dates, i.e. even dates that have only years and not day & month?
  • It is true that the last parts of his life are not well developed, but that is because of not finding enough sources to write about it. All primary sources (suc as biographies) stop on 1921-3, that's it. I am sure there are enough sources, but it will take some time.
  • You mentioned interesting wikilinks are missing. I am not perfect so if anyone wants to add them, please do.
  • I will slowly make the corrections based on your comments, probably it will take a couple of months, but after this is done, will the article be close to upgrade to a good-article? I am just asking to understand a little better how quality scale works.
  • Again, thanks for the comments, they will help me. A.Cython (talk) 09:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
You remind me myself, when I was a newby in wikipedia, I wanted to make Pericles FA and I had the same questions with you! I also envy you a bit, because, although friends of mine were telling me all the time "do something with Venizelos! Make a better article for him! He deserves it! Don't care about other articles", I was answering to them sarcastically that "I am not the right person for the job, because I am anti-Venizelist"! But I am happy that at last somebody worked seriously on the article. The answers to your questions:
  • Read WP:MoS. You wikilink only full dates: date-month-year. I'll go through the article to fix the links I'll find.
  • You can always search Google Book. I have also some pro-Venizelist sources, including our prime minister's book, and I'll have a look.
  • I'll do some wikilinking.
  • You can always have a look at the quality scale of the WO:GREECE. You can go first for a GA review (check WP:GAC) and then for a FA candidacy or skip GAC, and, when you think you are ready, go straight for FAC!--Yannismarou (talk) 10:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Hahaha, when i started to edit this article I didn't know almost anything about Venizelos! After almost a decade from high school and then you realize you do not remember anything. All I knew was that he was important for some reasons... so I thought it needed an expansion (look at the history before early Feb) and add some references.
I do search at Google Books, but sometimes the chapters you want are not available!
And don't get me wrong I am not Venizelist or non-Venizelist, if sometimes it looks POV it is because it is copied from POV source :( i will do what I can to keep it at minimum. lol A.Cython (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)