Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Peer review/Dirty Dancing

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[edit] Dirty Dancing

Seeking to take the article about this 1987 film to Featured status. It's already been through one WikiProject Peer Review in June 2007, and is at Good Article status, but an FA nomination a month ago did not succeed. I've done some more cleanup since then, and am seeking another Peer Review before trying again for FA. Thanks, Elonka 12:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  • The story details the moment of time that a teenaged girl crosses over into womanhood both physically and emotionally - have a think about this bolded bit and see if it reads any less with it out. Can definitely lose the 'both', the adjectives don't really add much but make it more cumbersome to read.
    • Hmm, will think about it. It's sort of one of the key elements of the story, and as I recall some of the crew described it this way, but I'll think if there's a different way to word it. --Elonka 07:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • As she further befriends the staff, - I find this clunky but an alternatve is yet to spring to mind...
    • Reworked. --Elonka 07:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • pursues a clandestine affair anyway. - I haven't actually seen the film. If they are already in some form of relationship I'd use continues rather than pursues here.
    • Fixed. --Elonka 07:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Homework - make a stub for It's My Turn the movie as this links to the song.
    • The film was already listed in the song stub. I reworked the stub so that it's more clear that it covers both. --Elonka 07:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

OK - prosewise it isn't too bad. I picked up a few things an no doubt others will pick up more. WRT comprehensiveness, it looks pretty good, I wonder if there isn't some other scholarly critique which discusses its success and/or place in culture in a bit more detail. It would be fantastic to add something if there was something about. The last section Other versions' is a bit stubby, a few more words on each item may make it run a bit better. Anyway, not too far away. Must see this one day I guess....Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your time! In terms of a scholarly work, there's this, I'll see what I can work in:
Wiams, William (2004-11-20). Baby in the Underworld: Myth and Tragic Vision in Dirty Dancing (pdf). Retrieved on 2008-04-06.
--Elonka 07:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Brilliant find. Have a read and see what you can add. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs)
Alright, I've grokked it and have added a new section, Dirty Dancing#Plot analysis, let me know what you think? --Elonka 00:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Comments by Matthewedwards (talk · contribs)
  • "dirty dancing" links to mambo, a dab page. Better if it were linked to mambo (dance)
    • Good catch! Fixed. --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "dirty dancing" in Plot, then "Dirty Dancing" in Pre-production (the act, not the movie)
    • The second one is capitalized because it refers to the title of the competitions, but I agree it could go either way. --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "gave the film a major sendoff" huh?
    • The sources describe the Times review as a major one, a half-page article with a major headline, as opposed to a minor review. I believe that one of the sources (video documentary) also described it as "major sendoff" but I'd have to doublecheck. Could you elaborate on your concern? --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
      • The word "sendoff". A sendoff to me is kind of like a big ol' party before someone leaves for a new city/job/life. If it was a review, I'd "say review". -- ṃ•α•Ł•ṭ•ʰ•Ə•Щ• @ 19:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Alright, changed to "major review". --Elonka 00:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "with viewers rating the film highly as "would watch this again."" Should be referenced
    • It is, at the end of the next sentence. This came from the 20th anniversary DVD. --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • No mention of whether the movie actually was released to video after only a weekend of theatrical release, and if it was given a longer theatrical release, no explaination of why
    • The sources are not specific, but the implication is that it stayed in theaters. --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "also became a fan-favorite that is often listed in top 10 "most watched" lists." WP:OR
    • Reworked the sentence and added a source. --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
  • "Other tragedies followed." Vestron going bankrupt maybe unfortunate, but not a tragedy.
    • Changed to "Some of the cast and crew died in tragic ways within the next few years." --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

That's all from me. Any comments, questions, or if you need a re-review or follow-up, let me know. -- ṃ•α•Ł•ṭ•ʰ•Ə•Щ• @ 00:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the help!  :) --Elonka 07:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Review by User:Bzuk

  • Given the iconic nature of the film, textual sources should be available and included as a bibliography
    • I have provided the ones that I know about. --Elonka 15:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • All reference citations should have the following format: Author (last, first name), Title, Place of Publishing (if required): Publisher, date (retrieval date). An example is:
    Judith Newmark. "How a Disney made-for-TV movie suddenly became ... A 'high school' craze", 'St. Louis Post Dispatch', 2007-01-21. should appear as: *:Newmark, Judith. "How a Disney made-for-TV movie suddenly became... A 'high school' craze." St. Louis Post Dispatch, January 21, 2007. Retrieved: April 13, 2008.
    • Fixed. --Elonka 15:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Why is there an ISO dating in the references?
    • I'm not understanding this one, please be more specific? --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • There is no consistency in retrieval dates used for citations, some have them, some don't
    • The ones that are online have retrieval dates. --Elonka 15:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Dirty Dancing: Live in Concert" should be in italics as a title of a work
    • Fixed. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • There is no cast list or cast section
    • This is one of those things I've been getting conflicting advice about. Some people like cast lists, others don't. I opted to remove it entirely --Elonka 15:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "seventeen-year-old" is normally written out as "17-year old"
    • Fixed. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "wrapped up" is normally "wrapped" in film lingo
    • Fixed. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Many filmgoers, after seeing the film once, went right back into the theater to watch it a second time." is inconsistent, did you mean they immediately went back to catch the next showing? probably not. Suggestion: "Many filmgoers, after seeing the film once, went back to watch it a second time." (based on the premise that you didn't literally mean that they watched the film twice in succession)
    • The first meaning is correct. They left the theater, turned around, bought another ticket and went right back in. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "So Vestron promoted the film themselves, and it premiered on August 16, 1987." could be more effectively written as "Consequently Vestron promoted the film themselves; premiering Dirty Dancing on August 16, 1987." These two thoughts/main ideas could also be two separate sentences as the promotion is not necessarily tied to its premiere.
    • Tweaked. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "off the script." usually written "off script"
    • Fixed. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Other casting choices were Broadway actor Jerry Orbach as Dr. Jake Houseman, Baby's father; and Jane Brucker as Lisa Houseman, Baby's older sister." could be written as "Other casting choices were Broadway actor Jerry Orbach as Dr. Jake Houseman, Baby's father and Jane Brucker as Lisa Houseman, Baby's older sister." (no need for a semi-colon)
    • Hmm, the "Baby's father and Jane Brucker" sounds odd to me without punctuation to separate the thoughts. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Baby then proceeds through tests and trials (dancing lessons, Penny's abortion, the performance at the Sheldrake) to achieve personal growth, "knowledge acquired through personal experience", for which she is rewarded, by sexual union with Johnny." (sentence too long, consider two sentences)
    • Adjusted. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

After saying all that, the article is a comprehensive, well-written and eminently interesting article. FWiW, all my comments hinge on minor aspects of the writing and referencing. 15:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much! With all the comments here, the article is much stronger as a result. I look forward to submitting it for FA again soon, please let me know if you have any other suggestions. --Elonka 13:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The prose is much better than in the last FAC. This shows especially in the plot section. I don't see any major obstacles for a successful future FAC, but I can still suggest a few minor tweaks. Ignore them where you think they are bad, in which case you don't have to explain yourself. I like working in batches, so the following isn't everything; if this peer review closes earlier than I can complete my review, I'll give you my notes in other ways. This review includes everything up until (including) the "Pre-production" section

  • "Baby brings her father, who is a doctor," - it is mentioned earlier that her father is "the personal physician of the resort owner Max Kellerman". Maybe move his job description there, e.g. "Baby's father, Dr. Jake Houseman (Jerry Orbach), is the personal physician of the resort owner Max Kellerman (Jack Weston)."
  • The "Plot analysis" section should say who made this analysis. If available, a second analysis source wouldn't hurt.
  • "The hero, Baby, is an innocent who receives" - an innocent what?
  • direct quotes like "knowledge acquired through personal experience" need a reference right behind the quotation marks, even though this duplicates unnecessary refs
  • "Dirty Dancing is in large part based on..." -> "A large part of Dirty Dancing is based on..."
  • "For a location for the film, they did not find anything suitable in the Catskills, so they decided..." -> "As the producers did not find a suitable filming location in the Catskills, they decided..."
  • "However, the two of them met, worked things out, ..." -> "However, the two of them worked things out in a meeting, ..."
  • "Bergstein initially wanted him to play the part of the social director, but then later asked him to play the part of the magician." - contains the phrase "to play the part of" twice
  • "The part of Baby's mother was originally given to..." - this is a run-on sentence. Consider splitting after "Bishop" and combine the resulting second sentence with the following sentence

– sgeureka t•c 13:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

(continued) As was suggested, I made some quick improvement attemps myself, which should be doublechecked for grammar (just in case). I also have some more notes (below) where I rather not touch the article myself at the moment.

  • "When it came time to select actual music for the film,..." sounds grammatically awkward to my non-native ears, but I may be wrong. Shouldn't it be "When it became time" or "When the time came to"?
  • "The film's huge success had the paradoxical effect of backfiring on some of the participants." - I don't really see what and how something "backfired", just a little bad luck that is not necessarily related to DD.
  • In the "Legacy" section, the facts about Swayze's future career appear disjointed, at least as far as it comes to their connection to the film. How was he parodied? Did he get the other roles because of the success of DD? (probably, but that needs to be pointed out). The prose in this section also seems not as fluent as elsewhere, IMO, and I can help out once the Swayze sentences are fixed.
  • "Johnny Castle's line "Nobody puts Baby in a corner" has been used in song lyrics," - source?
  • The last two sentences of the first paragraph in "Stage version" mix Simple Present and Simple Past in an awkward way.

– sgeureka t•c 20:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Just some quick thoughts. Much better than before.

(1) The coming of age aspect should reference Bildungsroman as a matter of simple professionalism, given this is the generally accepted academic term (descriptor), as monomyth is more of a Campbellism (i.e. analytic).

(2) Still marred by overly trivial descriptions especially in production and filming sections.

(3) prose: still weak & really needs some work for FA:

Ok, so instead of just shooting my mouth off, here's what I mean in this regard: Consider this paragraph (selected randomly):

Director Ardolino was adamant that they choose dancers who could also act, as he did not want to use the "stand-in" method that had been used with the 1983 Flashdance. For the female lead of Frances "Baby" Houseman, Bergstein chose the 26-year-old Jennifer Grey, daughter of the Oscar-winning actor and dancer Joel Grey of the 1972 film Cabaret. They then sought a male lead, initially considering 20-year-old Billy Zane, who had the visual look desired, but initial dancing tests when he was partnered with Grey did not meet expectations. The next choice was 34-year-old Patrick Swayze, who had been noticed for his roles in The Outsiders and Red Dawn, in which he had co-starred with Grey. Swayze was a seasoned dancer, with experience from the Joffrey Ballet. The producers liked him, but Swayze's agent was against the idea. However, Swayze read the script, liked the multi-leveled character of Johnny, and took the part anyway. Grey was not happy about the choice, as she and Swayze had had difficulty getting along on Red Dawn. However, the two of them met, worked things out, and when they did their dancing screen test, the chemistry between them was obvious. Bergstein described it as "breathtaking".[9]

I would rewrite this as:

Director Ardolino, after his experience using stand-ins with Flashdance in 1983, was adamant actors be chosen who could dance. This requirement disqualified 20-year old Billy Zane, who otherwise had the desired "look." Producers then considered 34-year old Patrick Swayze, a seasoned dancer after his lengthy experience with the Joffrey Ballet. Against the advice of his agent, Swayze liked the character and took the role. Although he and Jennifer Grey had previously clashed on the set of Red Dawn, they met and resolved their differences. By the time they took their screen test, the chemistry between them was "breathtaking" according to Bergstein.[9]

(I removed completely the sentence about Jennifer Grey, which is redundant wrt her starring in the film, says nothing about her dancing and is a pointless non-sequitur in terms of the minibio. If you have something about her ability to dance, place it here. Otherwise, kill it.)

Pretty much every paragraph needs to be tightened up like that; crisper prose, a more judicious eye for the relevant detail and less unnecessary guff that distracts from the main points.

(4) Finally, last time I objected to unsourced claims about the legacy, but I think that is one of the most interesting things about this (chick)flick ;). Is there no material that can be used to flesh out its legacy? After reining in the prose and trivia of the various production sections, there should be plenty of space. As it stands, we have a sort of laundry list of stuff; since this has been the subject of academic treatment, however, it suggests there may be something more substantive to say about it.

Ok, sorry if I am being too direct, but there's a strong potential here. Just needs some more work. Damn now I have time of my life stuck in my head. Damn you Dirty Dancing! Eusebeus (talk) 16:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)