Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Finland

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep See rationale and suggestions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seppo Taalasmaa. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Elina Taalasmaa

Elina Taalasmaa (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a fictional character of a soap opera. It has no real world information. It fails guidelines for WP:SOAPS Magioladitis (talk) 16:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Magioladitis (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• NOTE - The nom is attempting to delete every character article of the popular Finnish TV show Salatut elämät.-Oakshade (talk) 03:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Merge a summary onto List of actors on Salatut elämät.—RJH (talk) 01:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - Consensus has long since decided fictional character articles, including in soap operas, can be included. Major character in long running national soap opera. WikiProject Soap Operas (WP:SOAPS) is not a notability guideline, but a project improvement page and in no manner mandates article deletions. If you feel the article should be improved, a wiki-improvement tag is more appropriate, not article deletion. There's too much subject specific information here to merge.--Oakshade (talk) 03:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I disagree Oakshade. Those aspects of WP:FICT which expand upon WP:NOT#PLOT are essentially an extension of consensus policy. There is general agreement that purely {{in-universe}} content is inappropriate for Wikipedia. Eusebeus (talk) 13:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.
• Comment The list of characters can be converted to something like the List of Family Affairs characters. Separate articles cannot be supported without any real world information. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:PLOT (too little real-world context) and WP:N and WP:V (multiple independent secondary sources giving significant coverage are needed to demonstrate notability and to allow the reader to verify the content). Jakew (talk) 19:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• keep or Merge or redirect, depending on the importance of the character, but since a character might be a search term, the one thing that should not be done is delete. Spin out for major characters is still acceptable-- WP:SOAPS is only a project. I would like to see evidence first that someone with access to Finnish language sources has at least looked for them. DGG (talk) 00:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, the character appeared on the show for 9 years. I'm not sure exactly what part of WP:SOAPS this article fails. Even if this article did fail parts of WP:SOAPS, it's a guideline for a WikiProject, not Wikipedia as a whole. What real world information do you want the article to have? --Pixelface (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per Jakew. His rationale is virtually the same as mine. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 04:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep per Pixelface. ,,n (talk) 15:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fabrictramp (talk) 23:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. See rationale and suggestions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seppo Taalasmaa. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ulla Taalasmaa

Ulla Taalasmaa (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a fictional character of a soap opera. It has no real world information. It fails guidelines for WP:SOAPS. My prod was reverted as " minor edit" without any explanation. Magioladitis (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Magioladitis (talk) 21:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• NOTE - The nom is attempting to delete every character article of the popular Finnish TV show Salatut elämät.--Oakshade (talk) 03:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)--Oakshade (talk) 03:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - Consensus has long since decided fictional character articles, including in soap operas, can be included. Major character in long running national soap opera. WikiProject Soap Operas (WP:SOAPS) is not a notability guideline, but a project improvement page and in no manner mandates article deletions. If you feel the article should be improved, a wiki-improvement tag is more appropriate, not article deletion.--Oakshade (talk) 03:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.
• Comment The list of characters can be converted to something like the List of Family Affairs characters. Separate articles cannot be supported without any real world information. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete unless multiple reliable secondary sources can be found to demonstrate notability and to make the article verifiable. Article also lacks out-of-universe information needed to satisfy WP:PLOT. Jakew (talk) 19:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• keep or Merge or redirect, depending on the importance of the character, but since a character might be a search term, the one thing that should not be done is delete. Spin out for major characters is still acceptable-- WP:SOAPS is only a project. I would like to see evidence first that soeone with access to Finnish language sources has at least looked for them. DGG (talk) 00:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per my previous comment. Eusebeus (talk) 13:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

actually, each afd debate here stands on its own. DGG (talk) 16:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• Keep, the nominator does not give a valid reason for deletion. The sentence "She was played by Maija-Liisa Peuhu and appeared as a regular character in the series from 1999–2007." actually is real world information. I don't see how this article "fails" SOAPS. And I have to question why the nominator decided to put prod tags on every character article related to Salatut elämät saying "Fails notability per WP:FICTION" when WP:FICTION is simply a proposal. --Pixelface (talk) 15:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment It is like opposing an episode article to be merged because it states that this is the fifth episode of the series, so it contains real world information. I think I should write contains no real world information but trivial which it is already found in the list of characters article. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Finnish TV show so sources exist mostly in foreign language, like this The TV series is popular so Wikipedia needs to cover the characters also. Merge to a list of characters may be considered later, but that requires a keep anyway. --PeaceNT (talk) 15:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fabrictramp (talk) 23:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I agree with that: The soap is notable. I didn't Afd the soap! That the soap is notable doesn't imply that each individual character is notable! It's exactly like episodes and TV series. A soap it's much more that its characters. This is another reason I didn't make a group Afd.-- Magioladitis (talk) 00:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Wizardman 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jenni Vainio

Jenni Vainio (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a fictional character of a soap opera. It has no real world information. It fails guidelines for WP:SOAPS. I prodded the article and my prod was reverted as "minor edit" without any explanation. Magioladitis (talk) 16:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Magioladitis (talk) 21:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• NOTE - The nom is attempting to delete every character article of the popular Finnish TV show Salatut elämät. --Oakshade (talk) 03:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)--Oakshade (talk) 03:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - Consensus has long since decided fictional character articles, including in soap operas, can be included. Major character in long running national soap opera. WikiProject Soap Operas (WP:SOAPS) is not a notability guideline, but a project improvement page and in no manner mandates article deletions. If you feel the article should be improved, a wiki-improvement tag is more appropriate, not article deletion.--Oakshade (talk) 03:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.
• Comment The list of characters can be converted to something like the List of Family Affairs characters. Separate articles cannot be supported without any real world information. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete unless multiple reliable secondary sources can be found to demonstrate notability and to make the article verifiable. Jakew (talk) 19:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• keep or Merge or redirect, depending on the importance of the character, but since a character might be a search term, the one thing that should not be done is delete. Spin out for major characters is still acceptable-- WP:SOAPS is only a project. I would like to see evidence first that someone with access to Finnish language sources has at least looked for them. DGG (talk) 00:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per my previous comment. Eusebeus (talk) 13:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, there is no policy against articles about fictional characters from soap operas. I don't know why the nominator thinks mentioning that Anu Palevaara portrays this character is not real world information. WP:SOAPS is a guideline for one particular WikiProject, it doesn't dictate policy for the whole site. --Pixelface (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment You can't build a whole article about a fictional charactered standing only in one line which indicated the actor's name and the years of appearance (unreferenced). We certainly can make a better list of characters with short descriptions but do we really must have 6 different articles? Is each of these characters notable on its own? -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep per a general consensus not to outright delete. There is also a strong feeling that a "List of characters..." article, with the contents of the character articles merged to it (along with redirects of the character's names) may be more appropriate. That's for the talkpages, not AfD. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 20:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seppo Taalasmaa

Seppo Taalasmaa (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a fictional character of a soap opera. It has no real world information. It fails guidelines for WP:SOAPS Magioladitis (talk) 16:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Magioladitis (talk) 21:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• NOTE - The nom is attempting to delete every character article of the popular Finnish TV show Salatut elämät. --Oakshade (talk) 03:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - Consensus has long since decided fictional character articles, including in soap operas, can be included. Major character in long running national soap opera. WikiProject Soap Operas (WP:SOAPS) is not a notability guideline, but a project improvement page and in no manner mandates article deletions. If you feel the article should be improved, a wiki-improvement tag is more appropriate, not article deletion.--Oakshade (talk) 03:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.
• Comment The list of characters can be converted to something like the List of Family Affairs characters. Separate articles cannot be supported without any real world information. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete unless multiple reliable secondary sources can be found to demonstrate notability and to make the article verifiable. Some WP:PLOT concerns also. Jakew (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• keep or Merge or redirect, depending on the importance of the character, but since a character might be a search term, the one thing that should not be done is delete. Spin out for major characters is still acceptable- I would like to see evidence first that someone with access to Finnish language sources has at least looked for them. DGG (talk) 00:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per my previous comment. Eusebeus (talk) 13:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, the nominator would have done better to include all these Salatut elämät characters into one nomination. I can certainly see how this article could be merged into a List of Salatut elämät characters so deletion does not appear to be an option. The sentence " He is played by Jarmo Koski." actually is real world information. And non-Wikiproject Soap Opera members are under no obligation to follow whatever SOAPS says. --Pixelface (talk) 15:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment It is like opposing an episode article to be merged because it states that this is the fifth episode of the series, so it contains real world information. I think I should write contains no real world information but trivial which it is already found in the list of characters article. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. The character has appeared on one of the most popular TV series of Finland for nine years as one of it's main characters. Definitely notable. ,,n (talk) 04:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep Finnish TV show so sources exist mostly in foreign language, like this The TV series is popular so Wikipedia needs to cover the characters also. Merge to a list of characters may be considered later, but that requires a keep anyway. --PeaceNT (talk) 15:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fabrictramp (talk) 23:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I agree with that: The soap is notable. I didn't Afd the soap! That the soap is notable doesn't imply that each individual character is notable! It's exactly like episodes and TV series. A soap it's much more that its characters. This is another reason I didn't make a group Afd.-- Magioladitis (talk) 00:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

but the first step is to figure out which is the important ones--I recognize your reasonable intentions, why don't you try suggesting a merge without loss of content. Myself, I don;t like the genre much, but to the extent they are interesting at all, it is primarily in terms of the recurring characters--opinions will vary here, so the solution is to treat all aspects well,poor more exactly to let others do so. DGG (talk) 02:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The creation of a good List of characters article containing all biographies of the 6 characters would be something useful. I agree with that. -- Magioladitis (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

If here were articles about clearly less notable Salkkarit characters with much shorter tenure, I could very well vote for deletion. But here in English Wikipedia are only eight articles about characters of this show and in my opinion all of those eight are among the most important characters of the series. Elina, Kari, Seppo, Ulla, Ismo, Jenni and Laura were part of the original group of characters and Aaro, although the character had shorter tenure, is notable as probably the most well-known villain character of the show. ,,n (talk) 21:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, default to keep. Wizardman 17:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aaro Vaalanne

Aaro Vaalanne (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a fictional character of a soap opera. It has no real world information. It fails guidelines for WP:SOAPS Magioladitis (talk) 16:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Magioladitis (talk) 21:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - Consensus has long since decided fictional character articles, including in soap operas, can be included. Major character in long running national soap opera. WikiProject Soap Operas (WP:SOAPS) is not a notability guideline, but a project improvement page and in no manner mandates article deletions. If you feel the article should be improved, a wiki-improvement tag is more appropriate, not article deletion.--Oakshade (talk) 03:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.
• Comment The list of characters can be converted to something like the List of Family Affairs characters. Separate articles cannot be supported without any real world information. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete unless multiple reliable secondary sources can be found to demonstrate notability and to make the article verifiable. Jakew (talk) 19:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per my previous comment. Eusebeus (talk) 13:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, having no real world information is not a reason to delete, but this article has real world information anyway: "He is played by Teemu Lehtilä. Aaro Vaalanne was in serie in the production periods 2004–2006. The character came back to the series in the spring–autumn 2007." I don't see what part of WP:SOAPS this article "fails." It may be preferable to have articles on individual characters of Salatut elämät rather than 1403 articles for each and every episode. --Pixelface (talk) 15:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment It is like opposing an episode article to be merged because it states that this is the fifth episode of the series, so it contains real world information. I think I should write contains no real world information but trivial which it is already found in the list of characters article. Better have a well-organised List of characters with short accurate character profiles than having 1403 character articles with variations of the episodes plots or plot summaries. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. ,,n (talk) 04:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was no consensus, but leaning towards keep, so defaults to keep. Wizardman 17:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Laura Kiviranta

Laura Kiviranta (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View AfD)

Article about a fictional character of a soap opera. It has no real world information. It fails guidelines for WP:SOAPS. Magioladitis (talk) 16:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

• Question - Why did you place this in the "Places and transportation" category?--Oakshade (talk) 23:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• I fixed it. Obviously a mistake. -- Magioladitis (talk) 01:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Magioladitis (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - Wikipedia generally has articles on fictional characters in major national TV shows. See Guiding Light (2000-present) list of cast/characters, for a soap opera example. There's no reason to single this one out. There's no "real world" information because it's a fictional character. --Oakshade (talk) 23:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment The list you shown me it's a perfect place for many nominations. Check the guidelines in WP:SOAPS:

Character articles should always be written from a "real world" perspective, and should definitely not consist simply of in-universe plot summary. As such, it should include:

• Real-world dates for when the character was created
• Which actors have played the character, and when
• Any awards which were won by the actor for playing that character -- Magioladitis (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• Response - That's an excellent case for article improvement, not deletion. That WikiProject Soap Operas (WP:SOAPS) project page (not by any means a notability guideline) you quoted was created for uniformity and improvement of soap opera character articles and doesn't mandate deletion. A wiki-improvement tag is more appropriate. I don't subscribe to the "We have to destroy this article in order to save it" mentality. --Oakshade (talk) 01:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Response They are hundreds of fictional character articles not having any notability. The important is to improve the soap opera's article and the list of characters article. Individual articles for characters which is impossible a real world information should be merge or delete. -- Magioladitis (talk) 02:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not at all impossible to improve this article, especially of that "real world information" that you feel the article must be deleted if it currently doesn't have (WP:SOAPS doesn't mandate deletion if an article is currently deficient of these things as you claimed). As it's major character in long running soap opera, all of the requested information can be found and likely known by millions of fans. Deleting is not the solution if an article needs work. --Oakshade (talk) 02:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

And another note, this article actually does show what dates the character was created (one of the the original characters) and which actor played the character and when (Piitu Uski for it's entire run). There were no awards for the actor playing the character so that last "requirement" doesn't apply. Under your own criteria, this article "passes" the style guidelines set up in WP:SOAPS. --Oakshade (talk) 03:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.
• Comment The list of characters can be converted to something like the List of Family Affairs characters. Separate articles cannot be supported without any real world information. Most of the character articles violate the WP:FICTION guidelines. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:PLOT (too little real-world context) and WP:N and WP:V (multiple independent secondary sources giving significant coverage are needed to demonstrate notability and to allow the reader to verify the content). Jakew (talk) 19:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• keep or Merge or redirect, depending on the importance of the character, but since a character might be a search term, the one thing that should not be done is delete. Spin out for major characters is still acceptable-- WP:PLOT is at this point totally disputed, and, in any case, only refers to articles which are only plot summary without other content. I would like to see evidence first that someone with access to Finnish language sources has at least looked for them. DGG (talk) 00:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

and,. fwiw, there is no really agreed wording of WP:PLOT. at present it only indicates that articles should not be entirely plot summary. DGG (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

...which this article is. It's only a plot but a line. -- Magioladitis (talk) 06:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete per my previous comment. Eusebeus (talk) 13:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

to facilitate discussion, I copy the relevant part from your comment there, although you didn't even bother to cut and paste: "Those aspects of WP:FICT which expand upon WP:NOT#PLOT are essentially an extension of consensus policy. There is general agreement that purely in-universe content is inappropriate for Wikipedia" Unfortunately, if anyone cares to go the the FICT page they will see right at the top: the following is a proposed Wikipedia policy, guideline, or process. the reason it's only proposed is because there's no consensus, as the extremely long talk pages the demonstrate. probably it's time to mark rejected if people persist in refusing to compromise.DGG (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Keep, the text "played by Piitu Uski. Laura has been in the series since the beginning.[1] She appeared in the series in years 1999–2008." is real-world information. Does the nominator speak Finnish? Somehow I doubt they've looked for any sources in ANY Finnish newspapers. And non-project members are under no obligation to follow SOAPS. --Pixelface (talk) 15:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

the degree of agreement and rationality at the SOAP guidelines might be a good example for some of the other discussions. According to them, all this needs is the addition of the real-world details about the character's part in the show. The people who do not want to follow reasonable compromise are not setting a good example here. DGG (talk) 19:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment to Pixelface It is like opposing an episode article to be merged because it states that this is the fifth episode of the series, so it contains real world information. I think I should write contains no real world information but trivial which it is already found in the list of characters article. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep. ,,n (talk) 04:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment I agree with that: The soap is notable. I didn't Afd the soap! That the soap is notable doesn't imply that each individual character is notable! It's exactly like episodes and TV series. A soap it's much more that its characters. This is another reason I didn't make a group Afd.-- Magioladitis (talk) 00:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
• Keep this organized, referenced, and well-presented article that even has an image. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 03:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.