User talk:Wikiant

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[edit] Cyoob

  • Please do not remove Articles for deletion notices from articles or remove other people's comments in Articles for deletion pages. The notices and comments are needed to establish community consensus about the status of an article, and removing them is considered vandalism. If you oppose the deletion of an article, you may comment at the respective page instead. Thank you. Danny Lilithborne 22:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Please do not remove warnings from your talk page or replace them with offensive content. Removing or maliciously altering warnings from your talk page will not remove them from the page history. If you continue to remove or vandalize warnings from your talk page, you will lose your privilege of editing your talk page. Thanks. Danny Lilithborne 00:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Friendly 3RR notice

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing in Juris Doctor. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert a single page more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Peyna 20:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] J.D. Mediation

Please note that there is a Mediation conversation at Talk:J.D. in regards to WP:MedCab. --Jon Cates 01:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minimum Wage Graphs

Thanks for adding the graphs to the Minimum Wage article. Can you add a link that explains their significance or indicates how to read them? What type of graphs are they; what is the name of this type of graph? Jerimee 05:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Query on your minimum wage contributions and new Debatepedia debate on minimum wage

Noticed your good contributions on the "minimum wage article". A number of us have been working on a similar article on Debatepedia - Minimum Wage in the United States Debate. Just thought you might be interested. Loudsirens 21:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Teens.gif

Can you remove the trendline from Image:Teens.gif? The data obviously does not follow a linear regression. -Ravedave 02:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe what you mean to say is that there is no significant relationship between the two variables. This is incorrect. The slope of the regression line is statistically non-zero at the 1% level of significance. Wikiant 12:56, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Third party mediator sought

I tried, several months ago, to explain why I believe that these graphs are original research. When no agreement was reached I deliberately took time off from the dialogue to calm down and gain perspective. I then came back and proposed a compromise: that the tag "original research?" be applied to the graphs to raise awareness and encourage further dialogue. Wikiant undid that edit, and then I undid wikiant's. realizing that an edit war with perpetual disagreement could easily result, I am taking Wikiant's advice and seeking arbitration.
Burkander 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Duquesne University

Hello. Thanks for getting rid of that restored shooting section. However, the IP also deleted almost all of the intro section, and all the page references, in "re-adding" that section. ([1]) I wanted to inform you that I'm just going to revert to the last revision before the IP address, since so much work was lost. I thought you should know, since it will revert your reversion. Alekjds talk 20:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minimum wage edits

Hello. I added the Holly Sklar et al. book into the Minimum wage book because it seemed relevant.

Sklar, Holly; Mykyta, Laryssa; Wefald, Susan, "Raise The Floor: Wages and Policies That Work For All Of Us", 2002, South End Press. ISBN 0-89608-683-6

You took it out as "spam" ? Perhaps I should not have had an external link to the publisher's site which was merely informational. I do think the Sklar book, although not academicially rigorous, is relevant to that article. Best Wishes. -- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 18:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response and well-taken points. --- (Bob) Wikiklrsc (talk) 19:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have just put the following at Talk:Minimum wage:-

Isn't it sufficient that the Kim Swales's page links to his work, with the faxfn site cited there referencing papers submitted to the EC? And how is it "ego-spam", when I went to some trouble not to cite my own work but rather his? This is not the first time I have tried to mention his work on this page, so I am afraid that unless I see a positive reason - not a "looks like" - I am going to have to counter with "repeated removals without a positive reason 'looks like' vandalism". If you want a citation, follow the link to his page and then to his sources and put in one that satisfies you - don't simply delete. To my mind, putting Kim Swales was a sufficient citation; if you want more, go and get it.
I see from the other comments here that you have a tendency to use the "ready, fire, aim" approach. May I suggest you check some of these things for yourself, before I start editing again? In a few days I'll put suggested wordings on Talk:Minimum wage so you can sniff the dog's behind before you jump in. P.M.Lawrence 203.221.28.105 (talk) 07:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The WP:Verifiability policy states, "All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable, published source." As you are the one adding the Swale's passage, the onus for providing the reference is on you, not me. Wikiant (talk) 14:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
But how isn't "Kim Swales" a sufficient reference? I will shortly put a suggested wording on Talk:Minimum wage, and invite comments. P.M.Lawrence 203.220.83.29 (talk) 11:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
"Kim Swales" isn't a reference -- it's the name of the author. A reference cites a reliable printed source. In this case, I'd expect a journal article (journal name, article title, date of publication, etc.) Wikiant (talk) 11:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Of course "Kim Swales" isn't a reference, but I didn't write that, I wrote "Kim Swales", giving a link. And why isn't that sufficient, when that's just precisely how many other things in wikipedia get links and references? Would you be happy if the new material linked directly to the same stuff that is linked on the Kim Swales page? If not, why not, and if so, doesn't that just increase the clutter and the difficulty of maintenance when that gets moved around, as everything is sooner or later? P.M.Lawrence 203.220.42.115 (talk) 05:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, what you provided isn't a reference. A reference (in this case) would like this: "Friedman, M., 1942. The inflationary gap. American Economic Review 32(2), 314-320." The reference lists the journal, article, volume, and page numbers for the research paper that contains the information you are citing in the wikipedia article. Wikiant (talk) 11:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I have repeatedly asked what is insufficient about what I put, and you have repeatedly failed and refused to answer that question, instead repeating your insistence on a citation in a particular form and describing the form you insist on. Yet the wikipedia guidelines themselves allow flexibility. Since Kim Swales did not put these things in a journal but in a report to the EC, this appears to be precisely the sort of case where the flexibility is appropriate - your sort of citation does not exist, even though the work is sound and can be consulted (via the link I provided). Since Kim Swales took the trouble to canvass these things while he was working on them, an internet archive exists and is available via his wikipedia page. So, again I ask not what you call a citation but what you find inadequate about what I provided. If you do not answer the question, I shall put a draft on Talk:Minimum wage, and after it evolves move it to Minimum wage. If you alter or delete either of those stages in the sort of unconstructive way you have done before, I shall submit it for arbitration as being tantamount to vandalism, drawing the arbitrator's particular attention to your track record and high handedness in the past in relation to other people's efforts. P.M.Lawrence 203.221.31.124 (talk) 03:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The WP:Verifiability policy says, "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses..." and, "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science." Kim Swales has authored a number of peer-reviewed articles, but the report to the EC is not one of them. If you want your edit to stick, find where in Swales' peer-reviewed articles his tax policy theory appears and quote that. (Also, please stop duplicating this discussion on my talk page. It is sufficient that the discussion appears on the minimum wage talk page.) Wikiant (talk) 12:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
It would normally be "sufficient that the discussion appears on the minimum wage talk page". However, that would make your behaviour appear to be an isolated incident. It is necessary to log this here as well so that it will appear alongside descriptions of your similar behaviour on other occasions. That is the only way future editors and arbitrators can see the pattern. I remind you that an EC report is a source. You are giving away the narrowness of your criteria, despite the greater flexibility the standard policy allows. P.M.Lawrence 203.194.51.184 (talk) 02:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
We appear to be talking past each other as I am hearing you repeat the same argument which I believe I have adequately addressed multiple times. So, let's try a different approach. Let's put aside for the moment the question of whether or not the EC report constitutes a "reliable resource." Give us a link to the specific report that you are citing as support for the Kim Swales work. Wikiant (talk) 12:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This is mainly to log matters here so other users can follow how disagreements with you progress. I shall be requesting arbitration over your deletion of the description of the Kim Swales work, unless we can sort something else out first, particularly since you have also removed my disagreement at Wikipedia:Third_opinion, which was different to yours. Suppose the main material went into Kim Swales; what would you feel an adequate entry would be under this subtopic? What I am after is enough coverage that people know about that part of his work just from going there. Something like "See also Kim Swales" wouldn't achieve that. Please, I am asking for assistance, not "don't do it". I also want finality, not a delay long enough to lead me to suppose it was OK, followed by yet another objection. P.M.Lawrence 203.220.53.20 (talk) 00:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Putting the material under Kim Swales is appropriate, and I would have no comment one way or the other on what the specific content was. My beef is with the material appearing under Minimum Wage as it appears to represent a minority opinion with respect to the topic of minimum wage. Again, the same material appearing under Kim Swales is fine because it does not represent a minority opinion with respect to Kim Swales. Wikiant (talk) 03:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
That was where I was headed in the first place, before you deleted what I put under minimum wage the first time around; I just hadn't got around to putting any detail under Kim Swales yet, and you seemed to want everything under minimum wage (you were clear about "don't" but never clarified what you would accept). However, the point remains that this material is indeed an alternative to minimum wage - indeed, it comes much closer to a minimum wage than negative income tax or earned income tax credit do, since it actually aims to deliver a minimum wage - and so a coherent mention does belong under that subtopic and under the similar entries in the related articles. The third opinion is definitely wrong about whether it should be there at all, or else the entire subtopic should never have been there. So, what would you accept? Remember, an encyclopaedia has to help people find stuff, so even if a lot of detail ends up at Kim Swales there has to be some meat at minimum wage and the other places. As for whether it is a "minority opinion" - no, you have misunderstood. There is an opinion that there should be policy carrying out the technique. That is a minority opinion about policy. However, the material describes the technique. The technique is not opinion at all, it describes what the modelling shows what would happen under such and such a tax regime. I am not putting together an article edit saying "this should be done" - opinion - but material describing the research work in this area carried out by Kim Swales. It appears in a submission to to the EC, but that does not stop it being research work. P.M.Lawrence 203.221.30.175 (talk) 02:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Whether the technique is a viable alternative to minimum wage is irrelevant. Within the body of minimum wage research, the technique appears to represent a minority viewpoint because the technique is not described anywhere among the thousands of peer-reviewed research articles on the minimum wage. Thus, it is not appropriate for the technique to be referenced on minimum wage but it is appropriate for the technique to be referenced on Kim Swales. Wikiant (talk) 05:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Did you notice you were changing the subject? I answered your objection about whether it was an opinion or not, and you switched to objecting that its viability was irrelevant. So it is, although that is not what you objected to just before and I have never for one moment claimed that in support of it going in, let alone just there above (in other words, it is a straw man). What is relevant is that it is an alternative, and that is just precisely what that subtopic is for. Since it is not a minimum wage thing as such, naturally it won't appear among the articles you want it to be in. You might as well insist that an article on physics appear in a chemistry journal. I would certainly not have considered putting it in minimum wage if someone else hadn't already put in a subtopic about alternatives - and something has to go there, or people will never find their way to the material. Quite simply, it will be worse at the job of an encyclopaedia. You didn't address that side of things at all. Again, I ask you to suggest what sort of wording you would accept; I have in mind going back to something like the original, since the detail is now at Kim Swales. P.M.Lawrence 203.94.135.38 (talk) 06:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Brainwashing the poor into believing that they are wealthy is also an alternative. The question is: Has the proposed alternative appeared in a peer-reviewed journal. If not, then the alternative (IMO and the third-party negotiator's) represents a minority opinion and does not belong in the minimum wage article. Wikiant (talk) 12:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe we are again talking past each other again. Of course there is a minority opinion - but about the policy, not the technique. I have no intention of covering anything but the technique, and I am asking you for suggestions about how to do that, i.e. how to put in something that refers to the technique and lets people find the detail - the job of an encyclopaedia. From my reading of the third-party negotiator's comment, he or she was against it being in the article as it was an alternative and/or that using subsidies this way is not mainstream (but conceded being an amateur), and did not object that this material itself was a minority opinion, just that this use of subsidies in general was. But that objection falls, because there is a subtopic about alternatives and because Pigovian subsidies have actually been mainstream since the 1920s (they fell out of fashion with Ronald Coase's work but are now being revived by the likes of the Pigou Club). Furthermore, a peer-reviewed journal article is a sufficient but not a necessary condition for the technique not to be a minority opinion. We can see that it is a matter of fact and not of opinion from two things, that research has been done and - in something like ten years - nothing has come up to rebut let alone refute it. Please make suggestions about how to move forward. P.M.Lawrence 203.221.30.201 (talk) 02:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] JD edits

Your removing reference to 博士 in Chinese was a mistake, which you can verify with any dictionary. Zoticogrillo (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Please stop leaving article discussion comments on my talk page. Put the comments on the article's discussion page. Wikiant (talk) 21:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Missing image Image:Min wage college2.gif

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[edit] Tax incidence on Humanities Refdesk

Hi Wikiant. Just a little nitpick on your (otherwise excellent) response regarding the burden of tax. You said:

...when the government imposes a tax on luxury goods, producers prefer to pay the tax via reduced profits rather than to pass the tax on to consumers via higher prices.

I could be missing something but "prefer" implies they have a choice, doesn't it? I would argue that they don't have a choice because going out of business isn't really an option. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 00:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Going out of business is an extreme case, but you have the spirit of the argument right -- the choice isn't much of a choice. Wikiant (talk) 01:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)