Category talk:WikiProject The Beatles

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		This Beatles-related category is within the scope of The Beatles WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve and expand Wikipedia coverage of The Beatles, Apple Records, George Martin, Brian Epstein/NEMS, and related topics. You are more than welcome to join the project and/or contribute to discussion.
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The Beatles To-do: You can HELP!: Open tasks for WikiProject The Beatles. Edit or discuss these tasks. To Expand: Apple Records See also: Adopt an article To Clean up: Apple Records discography (wikify). The Beatles' 1965 USA Tour. Italian Cover Versions of Beatles' songs To Merge: To Create: Phil McDonald (engineer). Lennon/McCartney songs: I'll Keep You Satisfied (produced by George Martin), From A Window. George Martin produced Billy J. Kramer song: Magic Carpet (song). Bag o'Nails, where Paul met Linda. Articles on each Beatle tour (Category:The Beatles tours). The Lost Lennon Tapes, notable radio series which has spawned many bootlegs. Full list & instructions. Lists to complete: Wanted Pics/Graphics: Jimmy Nicol, Alistair Taylor, Ivan Vaughan, Tittenhurst Park, Tony Barrow. Project Discussions: The Beatles history, Individual songs vs longer album articles, Beatle wives, Merge/split proposals Project: Add {{WPBeatles}} to the talk pages of all Beatles-related articles. Send a newsletter to members, canvas for new members, and coordinate tasks. Enter articles classed as stubs into this list (under To Expand) and also list articles needing cleaning and other work here. If you complete one of these tasks, please remove it from the list and add your achievement to the project log.

Not to be like, claiming to be "bigger than Jesus" or anything, but The Beatles are a bit more than just "musicians" and I support staying at the top level, as we were. Good revert, Steve. ++Lar: t/c 20:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The top level, Category:WikiProjects, has stuff like "history", "geography", "culture", etc... then The Beatles. Not even Category:WikiProject Jesus gets listed there! :P I think it's just good sense to list it under Category:Music WikiProjects (not under Category:WikiProject Musicians, as it had been before Steve's revert). Flowerparty☀ 00:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I see what you're driving at now, I suppose. The Beatles are more than just music though. I could see Culture perhaps? I'd support Music before Musicians at any rate. There aren't any other individual band projects yet I don't think, so what is done here may set precedent. Thanks for clarifying. ++Lar: t/c 02:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Music is fine. We don't want to be reignite the bigger than Jesus thing now do we?! :) I'd have no great problem with us being in a category of "Musician WikiProjects" too*; what I'm not happy with - and fortunately it seems that the 2 other Project members who have spoken up agree with me, because I did think I might be waking up to a flamefest :) - is being subordinate to another WikiProject, which their category name and Project page currently implies. The reasons for this I've already outlined on Project talk and it's nothing to do with personal ownership, ego or anything like that. --kingboyk 04:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) *Although as Lar points out, we're probably a bit too wide for that, as our articles cover a much wider remit than musicians and their recordings: cultural terms and phenomena, corporations, studio staff, management, books, places... it's pretty damn wide!

Oh sorry for the hasty double post - WikiProject Queen has just started so we're no longer alone :). I'll go over and alert them to our Project and offer our help. --kingboyk 04:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Right, then, shall we go to Music as our parent instead of root? Musicians I just don't see. ++Lar: t/c 13:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Musicians is your parent WikiProject because the Beatles are Musicians. WikiProject categorization relies on Wikipedia-page categorization for the sake of consistency and accuracy, and the The Beatles page itself categorizes the Beatles as a "Music group" (in a large number of ways), and musical groups, obviously, are groups of musicians. The fact that the Beatles have had an influence on a large number of things outside of music is phenomenally irrelevant, because the same thing could be said about every WikiProject subject in every field of knowledge: categorization is based on what they are primarily known and relevant for, not based on every single iota of topicality. So, until The Beatles is itself categorized under Category:Culture or Category:Music rather than being categorized as what it actually is (a music group), this sort of ego-swollen miscategorization isn't necessary. The Beatles are my favorite band, but even I can tell that they don't belong under "Culture" or "Music" in general; they're a group of musicians. Wikipedia:WikiProject Queen is categorized in the same way, and for the exact same reasons. -Silence 15:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

"Ego swollen miscategorisation"??? Not likely to be helpful as a conversational style, I'm afraid. Queen being a new project isn't really a good example I don't think. ++Lar: t/c 15:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

lol at "Ego swollen miscategorisation". I've tweaked Category:WikiProject Musicians but the fact remains that it makes our Project a division of theirs. I don't find that acceptable. Category:Musician WikiProjects would be OK. --kingboyk 15:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC) P.S. The Beatles are not my favourite band, these days not even close. Sorry. :)

"WikiProject Musicians" is synonymous with "Musician WikiProjects" under the current organizational structure in use at Category:WikiProjects. The only entries that use the "X WikiProjects" rather than "WikiProject X" structure are ones that appear at the top level, and the only reason there are relics that break this structure is because Category:Music WikiProjects and Category:Religion WikiProjects and the like used to be top-level, before they were placed under Category:Culture WikiProjects by another user. If it makes you happy, I'll gladly fix that oversight so it's clearer (though it should already be perfectly clear for anyone who goes through the categorization system much; see Category:WikiProject Novels, for example) that something being categorized under the WikiProject doesn't make it a part of the WikiProject, it makes its topic something related to that WikiProject's topic. Remember that these categories exist for users: for people who don't necessarily know where everything is already. Such a user would expect the Beatles to be listed as a musician, not as a "cultural fixture" or anything as vague as that. -Silence 16:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. That goes some way towards placating me, dunno about the other members. --kingboyk 16:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

You're really meant to take unwanted categories to WP:CFD rather than just empty out, but never mind. --kingboyk 16:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've had another look at this. "The purpose of this project is to provide guidelines for wikipedia articles about individual musicians." What, then, is the argument for our Project being a descendent of that? By necessity we've done a lot of debating and guideline work - we're a new Project - but we're not a debating shop. Our goal is to write, improve and manage Beatles-related articles. Guidelines are a part of that but only a part. I don't believe with ~10 participants that the new Project is going to be managing articles in the way we are hoping to - it will be a debating shop. Anyway, I've signed up - better to be on the inside than the outside I reckon. --kingboyk 16:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Guess I better do too, then. (and no, The Beatles are not my fave band either. Just the most important band ever) ++Lar: t/c 16:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree. --kingboyk 16:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

To my thinking it's more important that the ARTICLE categorisation structure be right than that the WIKIPROJECT categorisation structure be right. Those wikiproject cats are not supposed to be visible to casual users, because the projects themselves are not visible. We're careful to keep signs of the projects off article pages, confining them to talk pages. So the "one perfect categorisation" argument carries a lot of weight with me w.r.t. articles, where we want to help casual readers find what they are looking for, and not so much with respect to projects. People interested in projects will find them via the talk page of articles in the project in my view. All I see project categorisation good for is... well... nothing. Except aggrandizement. Although I could be wrong. ++Lar: t/c 16:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, enough already. I've made a few changes here and there but beyond that "K Cera Cera". --kingboyk 16:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

• Wow, that's been a lot of strife generated (both here and on the WikiProject talk page) over such a trivial categorization issue. Bizarre. Alright, in the interest of settling this peacefully and finding a compromise, and in light of the information that Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians explicitly states that it deals with individual musicians, not groups, I've created a new category to place The Beatles, Queen, etc. under, which is more accurate and does not run the risk of the projects being "taken over" by WikiProject Musicians or anything like that: Category:WikiProject Music groups. Also, I apologize for some of my unfortunate comments above, -Silence 16:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)