Category talk:WikiProject Messianic Judaism
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Either Christian and Judaism categories go here, or they both don't. Not one or the other. Messianics do not ascribe to Chrisitanity, and Judaism is an unrelated category. I didn't put either category in, so I request both be removed, but if one is to be listed, then I request both Christianity and Judaism be listed. "We" Messianics have the right to inform the readers who "we" are affiliated with. inigmatus 04:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Inigmatus: Sorry to disappoint you, but only the Messianics thinks like that, the rest of the world, both Christians and Jews of all mainstream denominations maintain that no-one can be belong to "both" Christianity and Judaism at the same time because they are different religions with serious differences. But the Messianics seem to think they have a right to defy both logic and facts. Wikipedia does not support this kind of neologism, see Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms. You know, in basic common English usage it's clear that the terms "Messianic Judaism" or "Jewish Christians" or "Hebrew Christians" are just oxymorons, yet that does not seem to stop some people who are just out to missionize and convert Jews to Christianity using any form of deception and defiance of simple logic. Let us see what some other editors who have experinece with this subject have to say. IZAK 14:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I don't entirely agree with IZAK here, but I have to say: most Messianic Jewish congregations I've ever known had at least a loose affiliation with the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel, which is pretty darn Christian. I'd suggest, though, that this WikiProject is not the place that this is going to get sorted out, because I can't imagine anyone being actively involved here who doesn't already have a strong opinion and, in particular, there is bound to be a strong bias toward adherents who, contrary to Inigmatus above, may be entitled to control their own doctrines, but not to monopolize how their religion will be handled in an encyclopedia. At the very least, this should be brought to Wikipedia talk:Categorization; there may be an even broader venue where it should be discussed. - Jmabel | Talk 16:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I was making the point that a person should have the right to say who they are affiliated with. There is a huge bias that somehow Judaism and Christianity is incompatible. Maybe the modern versions of those religions are, but no one disputes that Christianity was (and still is considered by the Artscroll Siddur, note comment in the Amidah on the prayer against the heretics) a sect of Judaism. Messianic Judaism is this "sect." Now if that's illogical, then it's only illogical based on someone's bias today and clear ignorance of the facts. But this talk page is not here to dispute such. I was simply stating that as a Messianic, I believe that this category page should not affliated with EITHER Judaism or Christian categories. But since someone put this in a "Christian" category, I figured I'd be fair and also include it in a "Judaism" category - both are Categories that I disagree are even related to the Wikiproject to begin with! If no one objects, I will remove both categories in 24 hours, as I disagree with both. inigmatus 19:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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- What you're forgetting MPerel, unfortunately, is the Messianic Judaism considers itself a movement within Judaism. I have honestly NEVER heard a Messianic Jew (certainly not one within the Rabbinate) claim that it is an attempt to combine Judaism and Christianity; it's not. The Pharasaic authority considered the Messianic Jews ("Nazarenes") a legitimate Jewish sect until the 132 CE Bar Kokhba revolt, where they agreed to join Kokhba in arms but did not believe he was Messiah, and thus were evicted. Christianity (may its name be blotted out) is founded as an anti-semetic and supersessionist interpretation of intinsically Jewish scriptures and ideas and the very concept of the Messiah when these things began to reach the gentile world. Of equal deception is the idea that Messianic Judaism exists to missionize; that's Jews for Jesus, an evangelical baptist group, and neither is affiliated with the other. The major websites (see the link list on the MJ page) makes apparent the considerable differences between Messianic Judaism and Christianity, showing that the former and latter are in fact seperate and conflicting, and that the former is normally theologically closer to mainline Judaism save for the fact that most members of mainline Judaism don't want to admit that Messianic Judaism exists. So to make it short, yes, either delete both, or keep both. 12.65.114.243 01:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
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I am in agreement that the best solution for now is for this Wikiproject to stand alone, and that it be a sub-category of Category:WikiProject Religion only, and not of either Wikiproject:Christianity nor Wikiproject:Judaism (for it is neither fish nor fowl.) IZAK 02:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad we can come to an agreement on this course of actions. Thanks for your contributions and patience, IZAK. inigmatus 02:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
