Talk:Wigger/Archive 1

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Contents

Euphemism??

Lester Bangs has used "white nigger" as a EUPHEMISM for "punk rocker"? A euphemism is a more polite, more positive synonym, like "restroom" for "toilet" or "pass away" for "die." "White nigger" is the opposite! -unsigned


merge with chav?

Should we merge this article with the very-similar UK slang term chav? 69.219.146.25 17:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't think they should be merged, since the term Chav is only used in the UK (and by those outside of the UK who are familiar with British culture). The term Wigger is mostly used in North America, although it may have spread to other continents. Also, the meanings of the two terms aren't totally the same, and will probably continue to evolve along with social conditions and popular culture.Spylab 18:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

source

Can anyone prove that Jason Williams is considered a wigger?

NY Times magazine cover story on 'wiggers'

They didn't use the term wigger, but I know the NY Times Magazine did a cover story on the trend of white youths co-opting black culture. It was written a while back, I know the cover photo was a black and white two-shot of a black kid and his white friend who was dressed in hip hop style. Could be a good source. Don't know if anyone's interested in expanding this article, but thought I'd throw that out there.

hoax?

Not a hoax. Egad, I think Ricki Lake would run out of topics if she wasn't allowed to have occasional "wigger" shows... Of course, our current definition is unnecessarily coy about its etymology: white + nigger = wigger. -- Someone else 05:04, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I reverted this talk page as it was way back in October 2003. Between then and now it had been a redirect to Talk:Nigger, which I do not believe is correct (it may have been at one time, if the article title was also a redirect, but it isn't now). I'd have just deleted this page, but the above comments were not merged with Talk:Nigger and so I decided to keep them for completeness. :) - furrykef (Talk at me) 16:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Some may be insulted by the term coined to describe this phenomenon in white middle class suburbia, but it is a a phenomenon nonetheless. Therefore it deserves a wiki. To deny it would be censorship, and wiki could not survive with censorship. I deleted the previous post in this spot because it did not even pertain to the discussed topic. What does latino rap have to do with a variation of a derogative term originally coined to label blacks? 05:46, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I said that latinos had been a part of the hip hop culture from the start, because someone deleted the part in the article that said that latinos were also a part of "street culture".I was only justifiying myself for re-posting the latino part.Guanaco152003 22:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Latinos largely have their own culture, completely seperate from the African-American dominated hiphop culture (at least in the U.S.). --TheNationalist 17:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I know, I was just trying to say latinos have a part in the hip hop culture. :-) 22:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Have you read the book _New York Ricans in the Hip Hop Zone_ by Raquel Z. Rivera? It came out in 2003 and talks about the impact that New York Puerto Ricans had in the development of NY hip hop since the 1970s ... Finchogrincho 22:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
That we can point to something called "Latino Culture" doesn't demonstrate it is "completely seperate" (sic) from what is constructed as Black culture. Not only are many people both Black and latino, but the cultures have been cross-pollinating for decades (at least). I think it's worth doing some (a lot) research before making such a monolithic (and ignorant TBPF) statement.

Neutrality?

On what basis is the neutrality of this article disputed?

joeclark 19:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I think its because of the list of celebrities at the end.
I'm surprised Eminem wasn't listed there, by the way. Or was he, and someone took him out? MasterXiam 09:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
How is this neutral or objective? '"They also want to be tough, except their not, they are dumb suburban white kids who cry to their mommies."' I've got my own personal opinions on this topic but really, this should be deleted immedieatly as it clearly goes against the Wiki NPOV policy. (Not to mention the usage of "their" is incorrect, should be "they're")--Black Orpheus 04:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Weasel words...

==Criticism== "Some note that the word wigger is disproportionately often used by caucasians, and that use of the word is sometimes based in a racist belief that Afro culture is only suitable for blacks, depreciating the many cultural inventions and innovations that originated with African-American and Caribbean culture."

Can we do better? Who notes? Do they really "note" or do they "claim"? Removed for now.

I originally wrote that but I can't remember the source for this criticism. I agree that it's pretty POVly formulated. Help with the paragraph is appreciated, because I do think this is a valid and important criticism of the term "wigger". I'll try to think up a better way to write it, too, keep it on the talk page for a while. I'll add this to my watchlist. Would "Some believe..." be better?
Would you call black piano players "blites" or "oreos"?

About the fox-news-like weasel words "Some say..." -- I see this all the time on wikipedia, and I never like it when I read it, but it's hard to avoid it when I write. Any generic tips for alternatives to this phrase? Sunnan 21:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd prefer if they were called Wegroes or Wafrican Americans

Not sure if it's just a co-incidence but I came up with this word at my school in Nottingham (England) back in 1992 (refering to some white kids who thought they were black). Although it's obviously quite likely that it was also made up by other people across the globe.

  • Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. Uncle G 22:41, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Um, I don't think that rule means anything here — should the definition be removed because it also happened to be made up in school one day? I'm pretty sure that writer was just making a simple "Oh, interesting" observation. — Lenoxus 04:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Integration

While wiggers often fail in integrating themselves into Black communities, there are those that succeed. It may be useful to note that Wiggers often beleive they are part of the Black communty, although this is far from the case. The only successful integrations that I have been are subtle and do not involve the superficial aspects of Black culture; It is the superficial elements and credibility that Wiggers are often concerned with. 782 Naumova 11:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Wangster"

I changed part of the first paragraph to remove the flippant tone. Old copy was: " Which sound like a penis ganster. All day long." New copy reads: "Another word for this is "Wangster," apparently a combination of "white" and "gangster," but which sounds somewhat like "wanker," which literally means "one who masturbates" and generally refers to an individual lacking in social skills."

Requesting protection

May I (or another admin) semi-protect this page for a bit? It's been getting nothing but vandalism recently. --King of All the Franks 05:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd personally rather give it a day or two, to see if these levels continue Robdurbar 09:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is about the English slang term. For the Turkic people, see Uyghur.

This article is about the English slang term. For the Turkic people, see Uyghur.

What is the relation about Uyghur. Is it about similarity of pronunciation?--Ugur Basak 21:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

negative term?

Hi I'm puzzled as to if this term "wigger" is supposed to be a negative term or not. I'm curious to know if a European person (myself included) has choosen to embrace the hip-hop culture, is that person supposed to be labeled with such a term? Austrian Guy06 01:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, it is a negative term, mostly. Simply liking or "embracing hip hop culture", doesnt really make one a wigger in my opinion. Personaly, I only use it for people who go way too far and make an ass out of themselves with it. Jack Cain 01:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, of course it is a pejorative term. That doesn't mean it's not the perfect word to describe white people emulating the sort of black people for whom calling each other niggaz and gangstas is part of their lifestyle. Also, I think the article should feature a pic of the Icy Hot Stuntaz, the epitome of wiggers. Kar98 04:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
  • If you where a lot of South Pole merchandise, you are a fucking "wigger".

NPOV Dispute

Im disputing this quote and accompanying text as POV.

whereas the contemporary wigger embodies it: 
  The wiggers are the central white culture; there is no white culture that they’re countering anymore. [1]

I find it to be incorrect, slightly offensive and clearly POV. Jack Cain 08:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed about the offensiveness, but it is attributed to someone as a quote, rahter than stating it as a fact; it is shown to be someone's opinion Robdurbar 08:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The quote is out of context, and very badly so. Here is the full paragraph.

Is there a difference between 90s wiggers and 50s white Negroes?

I think there is. The white Negro perception was always a sort of outlaw privileged outsider-minority kind of infatuation. Part of the attraction was that it would remain counter to the white culture, counter to the economic, cultural center of the white culture–in effect it was a rejection of it. The wiggers are the central white culture; there is no white culture that they’re countering anymore. It’s not so much a rejection of something that is there as a chasing after something that isn’t there, or that they don’t have unless they chase after it. The wigger is basically a mainstream figure now in its generation. The wigger is not ostracized, unless you take skinheads, who are rampant racists of their generation."

Jack Cain 08:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

  • None of those are cogent NPOV objections. The same could be said of quotes by, say, Ann Coulter. Please read the Wikipedia:NPOV article. NPOV enjoins us to represent the opinions of notable commentators on a topic fairly, without censorship, however (allegedly) inflammatory those opinions may be. Also see: Wikipedia:Cite sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability.

    If the quote is out of context, then include the full quote.

    chocolateboy 08:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

    • I did, read up. Jack Cain 23:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Chocolateboy almost certainly meant in the article. Uncle G 00:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Ah, well, thats agreeable. Jack Cain 03:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

State of the Image:Wigger group.jpg

From its first revision:

"my friends and I, yes we are "wiggers" but this is not a degrading term for we choose to embrace the hip-hop culture."

I think this picture should stand, for now, as it was uploaded by a Wikipedian who considers himself and his friends, "wiggers". I agree that this is not an ideal image to illustrate Wigger. I think that the best illustration would be an actual illustrated caricature of Wigger, since Wigger is essentially a caricature to begin with (at least in the US). Okay, discuss: -Dwiki 02:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm unusure about this one. I base my removal on an edit summary I read somewhere - possibly on chav - that stated we shouldn't use images of real people for a stereotype. On a more general point, can we include this image without the expilicit permission of every person there? How do we know that these people are acutally the user who uploaded them, and his friends? I feel extrememly uncomfortable with this image being on the page. Robdurbar 10:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Rob. It raises POV issues as it stands unless we have empirical evidence that all of the people depicted in the photographs acquiesce to the "wigger" characterization. A photograph of a fictional character like Ali G would provide a more representative and less contentious illustration of the stereotype. And, yes, a caricature like that in the "chav" article would also be nice.
chocolateboy 19:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
All right, if you remove the pictures again, I'll support it, although if a replacement could be found before that happens, I'd be double-plus happy as I don't think it's critical. Personally, I want to see the cover from the NY Times magazine cover story on 'wiggers' mentioned at the top of this article if anybody has the resource to find it. --Dwiki 21:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes I am with my friends in the picture you administrators are questioning. I am confused as to this article being solely for the purpose of presenting "wigger" as just a stereotype as you administrators have implied. I would like to ask what is there to be said about those who are not of African descent who associate with the hip hop culture, I apologize for it seems that it is implied only those of African descent should be associated with hip-hop culture and I apologize again for in my opinion this assumption of hip-hop only available for people of African descent is a biased and prejudiced opinion. If this is indeed the intent of article, it is presenting only one side of the story as there are perhaps millions of people who have embraced and live the hip-hop culture who are European descent. Also to note from the article "Chicago rapper Marz, who is of Croatian descent, is a self proclaimed wigger". What is to be said of those of European descent who have embrace hip-hop and no have problems labeling themselves as such. Like Marz I have no problem to such if a person was to call me a "wigger" just because I choose the hip-hop lifestyle, so be it, I am not going to change myself in order to appease another person's opinion of myself.
If the ownership of the pictures are in question, I can tell you administrators that I am the owner of the photographs, I am wearing the blue jersey in the photograph with my friends and the second photograph is one of myself, the photography was done in 2004. If the real issue here is cultural differences I apologize for I was unaware that in America that race and music is such an issue for I have not encountered such obstacles in expressing my love for hip-hop living here in America so far. Please respond back, cheers. Austrian Guy06 23:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I'm afraid that none of us discussing this are 'administrators' - just people who are concerned that Wikipedia acts properly. Unfortunately, the wikiepdia No Original Research policy covers facts/opinions that are based on real life experience (don't worry, it took me a while to get my head around this one too). Baisically, it means that we shouldnt include things in the article on the basis of 'this is how it is for me' - what we need are previously published opinions/facts.
If you feel that there are artists (such as Marz) or celebrities who have 'celebrated' being a wigger then add them to the page, perhaps with quotes/referenced opinons. Indeed, if we were to find enough people showing this view, it could be expanded to a new section of the article that talks about white people embracing hip-hop culture, and even the term wigger.
As for the picture; again, it is simply a problem of describing a stereotype with a real life photo; even if the people in it are happy to be labeled 'wiggers', its still not very appropriate. Robdurbar 23:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


Hi euro-hop. I understand what you're saying here but you misunderstand the meaning of wigger here in the states. It actually does not refer to someone who embraces the hip-hop lifestyle. It specifically refers to people who try to be black and it is used negatively. Note that not all black people like hip-hop. There are many types of emulators who are labeled as such. Some may simply wear large sports jerseys in a style associated with black people. I'm now 22, but when I was in middle school people called a couple kids wiggers simply because they were friends with black people. So you see, this term is not a label for those who embrace the hip-hop culture. Black culture in the states and hip-hop culture are far from one in the same.68.185.171.159 12:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

What is it that you are talking about "trying to be Black"? Your skin color is something you are born with, how can you be a different skin color? Yes not all people of African ancestry like hip-hop. I know that of course. What is the arguement you are trying to make? From what you have written up, your view is extremely racist, and is that of that non African-Americans should not associate with African-Americans. You say of your experience in middle school where there was apparent racism, I do not understand why you bring this into your arguement, it makes no sense except to illustrate your point that you agreed with the racism perhaps? Austrian Guy06 21:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
This futher illustrates the lack of understanding here. What I'm pointing out is that in the states, this is a racist term. So to have an article explaining that it refers to someone who embraces hip-hop culture doesn't seem right to me. That is not the meaning that this term has in the country in which the term originated and has been used for decades. It is not racist to point out that it is a racist term. Nor would it be racist to point out that nigger is a racist term, which it is.
To further illustrate this, take a look at the first external source listed in the article: http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051127/COLUMNISTS08/511270359
It is about a young boy who gets called a wigger and bullied. It is not about a kid who went to school and said "hey guys, I'm a wigger." That's not how it works here.
You are quite amusing, now you bring up an article that is clearly that is a boy who is being bullied. Also, just now you vandalized my userpage, if you're going to leave comments then you should leave them on my discussion page, not my userpage. By the way, why are you hiding behind an IP address? If you have a Wikipedia account, then use it instead of hiding behind your IP address. Look I don't know you personally but everytime you write something you imply your hatred of "wiggers", please don't use Wikipedia as your little soapbox for your anti-wigger campaign, by all means please seek therapy. Cheers, Austrian Guy06 03:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, if we align it to 'n*****', which is much more widely used as both a racist and identifying term, that shows that its possible for the term to be both - yes it is racist, but yes some use it as an identifier. Ditto 'queer'. Robdurbar 09:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the guy (or girl I don't know) was trying to be racist. By saying "trying to be black" he meant white people speaking in Ebonics, dressing in hip hop apparel and wearing big jewelry (not that all African Americans are like this, but most). Guanaco152003 02:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Austrian Guy, it is a widely accepted perception, in America, by whites and Blacks, that there is something called "Black Culture" that extends far beyond the 'skin color you're born with'. The boundaries between white culture, Black culture, and mainstream culture are highly disputed; that doesn't mean that these categories don't exist, if only as inter-subjective perceptions and social constructs. Racism is part of our society, and the concept of "trying to be Black" and the term "wigger" are real phenomena, ones fraught with assumptions and expectations built into a society that demarcates race. Encyclopedias are not dedicated to describing 'what should be' but rather 'what is'. The discussion here is aimed at an article that accurately, fairly, and completely deals with this term and concept, with respect to race and racism. One thing that is clear is that it is, as Rob notes, used both as a racial epithet and as a less-insulting (but perhaps no less loaded) identifier. bntrpy 21:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Eminem Lyric

Comment from anon moved from main page: '<comment/suggestion: I say this comment should be striken from the database as by "cocky caucasians" he mainly focussing on the caucasians in power trying to give him trouble by suing him by any means necessary>'

Thoughts? Robdurbar 08:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


Irish people?

I was listening to the Elivis Costello song 'Oliver's Army' in which there's a line refering to Irish people as 'white niggers' and I came here to look it up but I got this page about 'Wiggers' could someone please create, or disambig this article so people can actually find what they are looking for? -- NatsukiGirl\talk 00:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Costello was referring to Irish in the U.K. (esp. Northern Ireland) being 2nd class-citizens and victims of discrimination. 63.152.13.173 06:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Celebrities and media characterization section

In that section, can anything related to reality television shows be permitted as I am considering printing this following section from the Big Brother (UK series 7) series as I have seen that bit.

Grace (Adams-Short) has since called her (Aisleyne Horgan-Wallace) a "ghetto hoe" and a "wigger", claiming that Aisleyne wants to be black.

Deleted lines

I deleted the following lines:

The most logical explanation for why many affluent Caucasian-Americans attempt to imitate the image and attitude of the “Gangsta-Rapper” is simply because this is an immensely popular form of music and by imitating the lifestyle projected by these artists, “wiggers” are hoping to be seen in a similar, favorable light. However, within the social circles of today’s youth, this usually has the reverse effect.


The phrase "the most logical explanation" in the above merely adds the pretence of authority to the author's assertion; and the assertion is not substantiated.

How can you disagree with that?

Paul Wall

He's a respected rapper and bringing up his race on the "wigger" article is sooo not appropriate. Bubba Sparxx too I guess. I can see the connection, but it does not seem very appropriate for wikipedia. It seems kind of cheeky. I'm deleting it. 70.160.101.148 04:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC) Jamil

Above post is me (forgot to sign in). JamRoc 04:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC) Jamil

Clean Up

This page was a mess. I completely deleted everything except for the factual definition of the term. The rest of the article was highly POV in that it treated what's nothing more than a slur as if it were a genuine anthropological phenomenon. I don't see a list of examples of "niggers" in pop-culture on the nigger page, why were there examples of wiggers here? Now there is a history of white Americans deriding whites who "act black" - that could be scholarly detailed in this article, but not from the POV that they deserve such derision. --128.164.229.179 20:29, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

and those links were nothing but ads for bad humor sites. --128.164.229.179 20:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Somebody reverted back to its jokey original status. This is an internet encyclopedia, not a humor page. There's no way that listing various white celebrities and characters and then stating that they can be best described as "wiggers" can be taken seriously. Nor can posting pictures of white kids dressed in oversized clothing. These people are not self-described "wiggers", so it's the author who is deciding that these white people are "acting black", which is definitely POV. You can note that people expect blacks and whites to act a certain type, and that breaking that type elicits ridicule and derision, but this article was written from the POV of that expectation.--128.164.229.179 13:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, someone's making a war out of this. For further reference to make my case, check the Uncle Tom and Oreo Cookie (slang) pages. Note that the authors never take it upon themselves to ascribe the perjorative terms to anyone.

  • I just did some more minor cleanup, fixing up formatting issues and tightening up the writing style.Spylab 17:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Merge request

I requested that this article be merged into list of ethnic slurs. For as long as this article has been up, it doesn't seem to have had anything encyclopedic on it besides the slur's definition. In fact, it was basically just a moderately-veiled neo-nazi soap box for ranting about "race-traitors", evidenced by the list of celebrities and fictional characters "outed" as being "wiggers". Also "wiggers" are not a subculture. The word refers to whites who are a part of a subculture that certain people believe that they shouldn't be because of their race. There's nothing to be said about "wiggers", besides providing the definition that doesn't take on the POV that whites are not supposed to act, dress, or talk a certain way.--Snackmagic 17:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

If the article is merged into a list, the article disappears, and instead we have a reference to the word as an ethnic slur. I doubt that it is exactly an ethnic slur. I think it is better classified as African American slang for a cultural phenomenon that deserves encyclopedic treatment. I don't think the negative connotation really suggests that white people shouldn't be a part of black culture; the negative connotation is from the superficiality of the "wigger's" identification with it. I don't think it is at all connected to neo-nazi culture. But, I am not an expert. Rlitwin 17:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
It's certainly not African American slang. It's mostly used by non-blacks in a racist "race-traitor" sense, and is thus as much a slur as Oreo is, which is also on that list.--Snackmagic 18:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
If that's the case I'm inclined to agree with you, but I wish I were more knowledgeable about it myself, and therefore I've got open ears for the moment. Rlitwin 19:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
But here's a question: would you advocate the same merge for every item in the Ethnic slurs category or the Pejorative terms for people category? It seems to me there is a pretty substantial precedent for having wikipedia articles on offensive words such as this. Maybe the right thing to do is to add content to the page about the nature of this word's use. Rlitwin 19:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
No, not if there's actually something NPOV to say about the slur, such as a history or controversies or significance in modern culture, or anything else encyclopedic. Nigger, Redneck, and Oreo all deserve their articles. But for the three years this article has been up, nobody has seemed to figure out how to discuss it in an NPOV way besides just providing the definition. For example, in the second most recent incarnation before I reduced the article, the "Interpretation of the Stereotype" starts off with: "Many whites resent the 'wiggers' for rejecting their own ethnicity’s heritage and many blacks reject their attempts to become cool by attempting to adopt theirs." That's either original research or party line, or both. If a white person favors hip-hop clothing and slang in lieu of, say, cargo shorts and ironic tees, he's merely choosing one transient entertainment-pop-culture subculture over another. That's a far stretch from rejecting one's heritage. Besides that, I wonder where the author got this information. I personally doubt both claims. The point seems to be only to prove that everyone can agree on hating wiggers. The next sentence, "More often than not, 'wigger' is a word used by both blacks and whites in conversation without offense being taken on either side", I know to just be a plain lie. The term, which is just "white nigger" shortened, is obviously offensive to blacks, if only for being derived from the most offensive, anti-black slur. The rest of that paragraph is just an incoherent jumble irrelevant quotes and speculations; especially the Senator Byrd part about his "white nigger" comment. His usage of "white nigger" has nothing to do with what "wigger" means. Anyway, my point is that it doesn't seem like anyone can do anything to make this a worthwhile standalone article, so might as well just tuck the definition away on the ethnic slurs page and leave it.--Snackmagic 20:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
At this point I support the recent cleanup by 128.164.229.179. Maybe over time some very up-to-date sociologist will be able to provide enlightening additions. The word "nigga" is now so accepted among younger African Americans that I find the notion that the term "wigger" is often if not usually inoffensive actually to be somewhat credible, but I really don't know. Rlitwin 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I support a clean up, but there should be some factual content beyond the definition of "white nigger", as Wikipedia function as a primer and can be used to educate people who don't have access to, knowledge of, nor understanding of hip-hop subculture. It can save some people from acting in a uncool manner, and save them from embarrassment at the very least, and could save their lives at the most (eg from gang violence). Please refrain from vandalizing the article by chopping it. 86.137.196.11 23:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
If priming about the hip hop subculture is needed then that's what the hip hop article is for. There was nothing in this artice that had anything to do with saving people's lives (how ridiculous). And cleaning up the junk isn't vandalism. Bring on the factual content - what I cut wasn't it.--Snackmagic 02:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is total racism. hip-hop culture is an integral part of everyday life for lotsa young americans. It is your own POV of not liking it. This ain't no junk.--Bonafide.hustla 02:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you insane? Nothing I've said indicates that I have a problem with hip-hop culture. This article has nothing to do with that, except that it denigrates whites who are involved in hip-hop culture. For example Kevin Federline under the "See Also" section. Why? Who has decided that he's a "wigger"?--Snackmagic 10:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It's just an example of POV pushing and people who are unaffected by hip hop culture fail to understand the meaning of the term. Wigger is not derogatory. It can be a compliment. Some rappers are self-proclaimed wiggers. Merging this article to a List of ethnic slur is very offensive to the people who use the term in good faith and distort a lot info. for people who are really wanting to know the meaning of the term. It needs to be cleanup not merge.--Bonafide.hustla 20:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't merge. It warrants its own article and besides, "wigger" is hard to be classified as an ethnic slur because it's one (or more) race(s) imitating another. Gold Stur 21:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I concur. DO NOT MERGE.--Bonafide.hustla 21:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this article should be MERGE into list of ethnic slurs. This article doesn't seem to have had anything encyclopedic. RevolverOcelotX
I am really confused here. I've just checked into the backgrounds of some of the people expressing strong opinions on this article, and I am only more confused. I am interested in hearing more from Bonafide.hustla about how this word is used. Is it in fact used in the Hip Hop community non-disparagingly or is Snackmagic correct that it is mainly used by whites in a racist way (pejorative meaning "race traitor")? This is a definite and important disagreement as to the facts. Because there is a disagreement about the facts I think we are in need of some references. Bonafide.hustla says the article needs to be cleaned up. I think that if he is arguing in good faith, and I have no reason to assume that he is not, the he deserves the chance to attempt a cleanup of the article so that it meets encyclopedic standards. Snackmagic asserts that this word is used in a certain way. If his assertion is correct (and if it is the whole story) then I sympathize with his desire to merge the article. However, if the word is used by the hip hop community in a non-derogatory way - and especially if it is also used insultingly by racist whites - then we have a case of something that there is a real need for a good wikipedia article about. I am sorry to keep switching sides on this debate but I am really confused, and I think the discussion should be better and more complete before we do the merge. Snackmagic seems to think that there is a kind of racist malice behind the articles that is motivating those who want to keep it. While this is a possibility I prefer to take Bonafide.hustla and others in good faith, at least until a full and reasonable discussion reveals otherwise. I don't think we have had a full and reasonable discussion where each side's reasons are fully explored. I think one thing that would be helpful would be written evidence that the word is used in one way or another. Articles about the word wigger may not exist yet to use as references; however, if the word is used non-disparagingly in hip hop magazines for example, it would be very helpful to cite those. Likewise if Snackmagic is right then the word probably appears somewhere in writing used in a way that supports your argument. I need more information. I am really in the dark. I have never heard of this word anywhere but here. I don't think we have reached a concensus as to merge and I think there's no reason to think, at least as far as I can tell, that anyone is arguing in anything but good faith. And.... if we don't get a good discussion in place of an edit war, I think i am going to request comment. Rlitwin 22:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Wigger is very common in the hip-hop community and in no way racism. Some caucasian rappers, most notably Marz, has explicitly their status as wiggas, the merge delete a lot of info. about this popular slang term.--Bonafide.hustla 06:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

At this point I think you need a source for that. There is a disagreement here about what you are stating as a fact, and you have not provided a source. A source for that information is going to be crucial if you want the article to survive as you like it. Give us a source to show that wigger is a common term within the hiphop community. Others say it is not. Rlitwin 12:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The move was racism and POV. I want to counter you to give us a source that SHOWS wigger is an racist slur. It's not. [[2]] shows its a universl slang term common in the North American society especially among young people. Even if it's an ethnic slur, you shouldn't delete the main article even just because you don't like it. (nigga is an racial slur, it got it's main article though). A lot of useful info. that people can refer to are deleted.--Bonafide.hustla 01:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the Hip Hoptionary, a dictionary of hip hop slang, defines "wigger" simply as a "white nigger." I reinstated the short version of the article, without all the offensive-jokey fun at the expense of "wiggers." Rlitwin 02:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Snackmagic's blanking edits

The version Snackmagic contests appears to have relevant reliable resources that document the cultural usages and journalistic obersvations. Why is it so objectionable? Snackmagic really needs to document his concerns clearly and concisely on the talk page. If he fails to make his objections clear, we will need to initiate mediation. The purpose of Wikipedia is to document facts already present, and the information that had been provided appeared to do just that. Snackmagic has deleted apparently appropriate references. - CobaltBlueTony 14:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

From User:Snackmagic's contributions, his edits seem to be nothing but POV pushing and racism.--Bonafide.hustla 01:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I have not noticed any point-of-view pushing or racism from User:Snackmagic, but I have seen you repeatedly revert this article to an inferior version, without even the slightest attempt at explaining why you've done so. This is considered vandalism, and must stop.Spylab 15:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Technically correct terms for racial groups

Caucasian is not an accurate term to describe all White people. If you click on the Caucasian link, you will see various definitions with precise meanings. Also, the term African American should not be used to describe all Black people, since they don't all live in the USA.Spylab 13:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Just want to say great clean-up. The article finally looks like it belongs in an encyclopedia.Snackmagic 16:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Dubious alternatives

The alternative terms such as "Wafrican-american" and "Wegro" are obviously cheeky neologisms. That someone thought it was worth a chuckle to extend the idea and etymology behind "wigger" and come up with those doesn't really need to be documented in this article. Those aren't genuine alternatives - they're exculsively employed with ironic intent. Unless someone has a cite proving otherwise, I'm getting rid of them.

"People that have been labelled as wiggers" section

If you want to list people as "wiggers", you need to find someone who says so, even if seems obvious. Read WP:V and WP:RS for details. I've removed unsourced "wiggers". Grace Note 00:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who started that section, mainly because there were too many links to people in the "see also" section so I had them separated to make it look a little more organized.. I've wrote "labelled" implying that though they may not conisder themselves to be wiggers, society and the media labelled them as such based on their dress styles and mannerisms. Anonymous

Entries in this section should be deleted unless each can be reasonably sourced (i.e., someone self-identifies, or is labeled as such by a writer or commentator). It's almost akin to adding "People who have been labeled as idiots" to the Idiot article (though I concede that not everyone thinks that Wigger is a pejorative term). OhNoitsJamie Talk 03:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted most of the entries as unsourced, with the exception of Westwood (citing the Guardian source) and Marz (I'm trusting that he is indeed a self-proclaimed Wigger). Regarding the other entries, this sort of thing should be sourced; the slippery slope toward arbitrary POV assignment is too easy. OhNoitsJamie Talk 05:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Eminem claimed he is labelled as a wigga in his song "The Way I Am", so he should not be deleted.--Bonafide.hustla 05:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Now the only people on the list are there because they have been documented as being labelled wiggers in the References in popular culture section.Spylab 16:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Travis Barker a Wigger?

Should Travis Barker be considered a "wigger", since many fans have accused him for trying to have a black rapper's image and by occasionally playing hip-hop music. What do you think?--Cory pratt 22:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


Problems with old version of intro

There were several problems with the old version of the intro, so I fixed them. Those problems should not be reverted, because that leads to a substandard article. First of all, the old version was USA-centric, even though the term has been used in countries other than the United States. Therefore, I changed the USA-centric content, such as the term African American, because black people in other countries are not African Americans. I deleted the bolded section in the following sentence, because it is grammatically incorrect and does not make any sense in the English language: "The word is considered offensive by some because of its similarity to nigger, it may also offend the person's social background and personal history (as it is believed that many "wiggers" grew up in a black environment), and because it reflects stereotypical notions about Urban Black Americans." There were also other problems with grammar and wording that I corrected.Spylab 10:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Wigger is a US-Centric term, and while wigger can be defined as white nigga or wannabe nigga, these people's role models obviously isn't black people in Africa or Europe, they are, in fact, aspiring "African American" who follows hip-hop culture. Hip-hop culture is obviously originated from the African American community.--Certified.Gangsta 10:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The term wigger is used in countries other than the United States, and not every black person associated with hip hop around the world is a carbon copy of American blacks. And even if I was wrong about that (which I'm not), you should only edit the part that you can prove is wrong; not revert everything. The version I replaced does not meet Wikipedia standards for grammar and language.Spylab 10:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Regardless of where it's used today, it originates from the United States and its real definition is copying a stereotypical urban African American. It would NOT apply to a white person born in jamaica who talks like a Jamaican for example, so no it does not relate to all black people. Bélancourt

Book is a possible candidate for an article

—Centrx→talk • 22:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

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