Talk:Wielbark culture

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Contents

[edit] old talk

Can someone provide a source for the alternate name "Willenberg Culture"? All I could turn up was Wikipedia mirrors. Rmhermen 22:07, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Try Googling "Willenberg Kultur". Space Cadet 01:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Rmherman, I am posting the additional information (removed) from Willenberg, Prussia Wielbark Culture here, because it is backed up by a German -language book, which you most-likely will not have access to in order to verify. Book is from 1991, Verlag Rautenberg by Karl Baumann Die Prussen, reference pages 74, 75 and map on page 81 posting the Prussians returning to their previous areas on both sides of the Vistula river by the year 600 AD and thereafter. The current Wikipedia depiction is fairly correct for 200 AD (Aesti in yellow). The Aesti and Prussians are by thousands of archaeological finds proven to be one and the same and have lived together with the Goths. There were no wars amongst them and the Aesti Prussians, who for more than a thousand years before the Goths came, used urn cremations, particularly face urns, started to use burials as well, most likely due to partial christianisations. Under Theoderic the Goth the Aesti-Prussi were part of the empire.

There are large amounts of finds (Funde), several thousand graves (Grab- Graeberfelder) from North-Eastern Germania (Freies Germanien) with coins from Roman times, trade with Greeks, Vikings, Arabs and later from Slavs and so on.

This text was removed from the Willenberg/ Wielbark Culture article:

The Aesti-Prussia, who had lived on both sides of the Vistula delta since at least 1000 BC were pushed more to the east, but returned to again live on both sides of the Vistula while many of the Goths gradually moved towards the Black Sea. In 997 AD Prussians were recordedly baptised in the vincinity of Oxhoeft/Gdingen (Okzywie-Gdynia) by Adalbert of Prague. MG 2/3/2006

[edit] Wielbark or Willenberg

Seeing that we have the usual dustup about the name of the article, let's do a quick check on Google Book Search.

  • "Wielbark culture" 17 books
  • "Willenberg culture" 1 book, which actually uses the expression Wielbark-Willenberg-culture

So, it seems that, looking at scholarly books provided by Google Book Search at least, the use of Wielbark culture is almost universal. The article must reflect that, as this is English Wikipedia.Balcer 03:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Please, stick to commonly accepted English language usage. There is a 17:1 ratio in favour of Wielbark Culture. Balcer 19:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Name of Wielbark Culture - Willenberg Kultur

Gräberfeld von Braunswalde Willenberg bei Marienburg At that location at Willenberg near Marienburg where more than 3000 graves found, one of many finds in Eastprussia, Germany, discoveries since 1880's. books from 1938 refer to Gotic Gepidic graves at Willenberg

transferring info here, because of removal by POV warriors Lysy and Space Cadet:

Before the Goths came to the area in the Vistula delta, the Prussians lived on both sides of the Vistula and when Goths moved south, Prussians took up on both sides of the Vistula again. When in 997 AD the recently established Polish dukedom sent their soldiers with Adalbert of Prague, the bishop baptised a number of Prussians in the settlement, which later became the city of Danzig, now Gdansk.

The Wielbark culture seems to have been a mixed society composed of both Goths and Gepids from Scandinavia as well as the previous inhabitants (mainly Vandals and Rugians). In the 3rd century, the Willenberg (Wielbark) community left their settlements and reached their new homeland, Oium, in Ukraine, where they would found a new empire.

It is also noteworthy, that the Aesti-Prussi did not use metal weapons, rather used clubs, because they were not permanently lethal and only when they began to be attacked by the newly created dukes of Poland or Masovia, did they start using metal weapons.

External links

[edit] Image of a stone in Sweden

A Scandinavian stela
A Scandinavian stela
Sö328, Tynäs
Sö328, Tynäs

I had removed the image shown here as a small thumb. User:Berig reintroduced it, with exactly the same non-informative caption, and a patronizing edit summary. Almost daily I am passing within sight of a very similar Scandinavian stone. The captian is ambiguous and does not tell the reader anything. First of all: where is this "bautasten"? The upload page on commons only says that it comes from Swedish wikipedia, so most probably, it is a Swedish stone. Then it has no bearing on Wielbark at all. /Pieter Kuiper 19:41, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

You could begin with informing yourself about the presence of Scandinavian burial traditions in the Wielbark culture. It would spare the rest of us a lot of time.--Berig 16:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I conclude that User:Berig is equally clueless to the coordinates of this stone as I am. /Pieter Kuiper 16:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Wrong conclusion, Pieter Kuiper.--Berig 17:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Is this User:Berig's private phallic symbol that he is not at liberty to discuss, or what? Pieter Kuiper 17:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I am at full liberty to inform you of its location if you want to see the "phallic symbol" it, or even touch it, but I won't do that until you have shown that you have some basic knowledge of this culture and its burial traditions. It is unacceptable that you delete pictures of monuments from burial traditions that you have no prior knowledge of.--Berig 17:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Found it :) /Pieter Kuiper 19:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I can't parse the following:

  • "The report of the original excavation was rediscovered in 2004." (Mis-shelved at the library?)
  • "...variations of cobble cladding." (What is being clad? What kind of variation?)
  • "names given by Pliny and Tacitus appear to be identical to *Gutaniz" (Isn't the reconstruction based in part on Latin Gutones? Circular.)
  • "the three ships of Goths arriving at the Vistula" (Refering to a deleted quote? No three ships have been mentioned at this point.)
  • "The latest tendency is to doubt... and it has been established that... it appears... this theory...etc. (These locutions always need <ref></ref> citations so the reader knows who's "doubting" and who's "establishing")
  • "recorded by Jordanes as well as H. Schedel, see link" (The link is gone.)

This degraded text bears the scars of contention. I can't fix it. --Wetman 01:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

According to Jordanes I think we need a references for this bloke, a date beside his name and pages woulg also be good. I cant help ypu with the upper sections. Enlil Ninlil 05:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Jordanes was 6th century, I can put in a link to the relevant section. But this is a terrible article. It is crowded with unsourced maps. It is recounting a lot of "history", but it is not very informative of the archeology. It would be interesting to know when this "original excavation" took place - period 1939-1945? /Pieter Kuiper 06:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Answer to Original name of Braunswalde Willenberg culture finds

In answer to above question about original Willenberg culture excavation rediscovered in 2004:

(Space Cadet keeps removing info and links [1],[2], [3], [4], thus I post it here for your information)

Wielbark culture also known as Willenberg culture (German: Wielbark/Willenberg-Kultur, Polish: Kultura wielbarska, Ukrainian: Вельбарська культура (Vel’bars’ka kul’tura)) was a pre-literate culture that archaeologists have identified with the Goths; it appeared during the first half of the 1st century AD. It replaced the Oksywie culture, in the area of modern-day Eastern Pomerania around the lower Vistula river, which was related to the Przeworsk culture.


Discovery

A cemetery of over 3000 tombs was discovered in 1873 and documented in the 1874 Correspondenz-Blatt der deutschen Gesellschaft für Anthropologie, Ethnologie und Urgeschichte [1] as "Gotisch-Gepidisches Gräberfeld Braunswalde-Willenberg bei Marienburg". It was named after two villages in the Province of Prussia about 4 km south of Malbork (Marienburg) on the road towards Sztum (Stuhm), and attributed to the Goths and Gepids.

In 1945, Willenberg became Wielbark in Pomerania, Poland. Polish scientists did not continue to use the decades-old German name for the culture, and applied the new town name also for the culture, as done before for the culture found near Oxhöft. It was pointed out in 2004 [2] that while naming convention in archeology is based on names at the time of discovery, Poles use different naming for sites in former Prussian areas, and do no use naming conventions like East Germanic tribes.

Due to the Communist Polish take-over of eastern Germany after World War II towns, people and museums were destroyed or dispersed. The report of the Braunswalde- Willenberg original excavation in Imperial Germany, which was believed to have been lost, was rediscovered in 2004 and is about to be analysed in an international cooperation.[3]

^ Correspondenz-Blatt der deutschen Gesellschaft für Anthropologie, Ethnologie und Urgeschichte, 1874,[1] ^ Heinrich Beck, Zur Geschichte der Gleichung "germanisch-deutsch": Sprache und Namen [2] ^ Das kaiserzeitliche Gräberfeld von Malbork-Wielbark - Seit der Entdeckung der verschollen geglaubten Grabungsberichte des für die kaiserzeitliche Kultur Nordpolens namengebenden Gräberfeldes im Jahr 2004 wird in Kooperation mit Partnern in Gdańsk, Warszawa, Kraków und Lublin dessen kritische Dokumentation und Analyse vorbereitet. Sie erfolgt auf der Basis des inzwischen komplett vorliegenden, von der Fa. Aba GbR technisch aufbereiteten Grabungsplanes und wird gefördert aus Mitteln des Dronning Margrethe og Prins Henriks Fond. [3][4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.64.78 (talk) 07:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)