Template talk:Wi

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Articles for deletion
This page was previously nominated for deletion. Please see prior discussion(s) before considering re-nomination:

See also: Wikipedia talk:Soft redirect, where this template is also discussed.

Contents

[edit] Reason for recreation

I saw that this was deleted in July 2004 by User:Timwi because "I've added this to MediaWiki:Noarticletext". Clearly that solution is sub-optimal, because the noarticletext says "perhaps" there is an article at Wiktionary. This template is to be used when there is *definitely* an article at Wiktionary. I hope this explains my reasons for undeletion and restoration of the places that used it. Pcb21| Pete 18:44, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming

This is the first I've ever heard of this template, and I really like it (see my comments on Wikipedia talk:Soft redirect). If the deletion policy is updated to use this template instead of nuking dicdefs:{{wiktionary}} should be moved to {{dicdef}};{{wi}} should be moved to {{wiktionary}} • Benc • 10:37, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Sounds good to me. Pcb21| Pete 11:12, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • For convenience, please keep template names as short as possible.--Patrick 01:00, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)
      • You're right. Suggestion to rename withdrawn. • Benc • 03:06, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
        • I think "wi" may be a little *too* short... hard to guess what it means... "wikt" maybe? Pcb21| Pete 03:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
          • OK. Note however that one rarely has to guess what a template name means, one can see how the template is rendered.--Patrick 09:23, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
        • I vote to make it "wiktionary" (replacing the present redirect). This template is the most appropriate one to use that name. -- Netoholic @ 21:31, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I think it should be something like "wikt" or "wiktionary2". "Wi" is just too ubiquitous, to me. Though I suppose it wouldn't have a need to direct to any other project than Wiktionary, I suppose. Phoenix-forgotten 01:55, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

[edit] Special:Shortpages

This template makes Special:Shortpages less useful since all articles using this template show up on that list. Angela. 01:31, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

  • What is the threshold (Kb)? -- Netoholic @ 21:31, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • There is no threshold. Special:Shortpages is simply the list of the 1000 smallest pages in the main namespace. • Benc • 22:07, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • Gotcha. Looks like we just have to get the message up above about 100 bytes/characters. -- Netoholic @ 22:33, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Does the count include the text of the template, or only the four characters needed to put the template into the article? RickK 22:34, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)
    • Just checked, and it looks like it only counts the characters used to insert the template. I really hope we don't have to use "subst".-- Netoholic @ 22:56, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • I just thought of a hack to work around the problem: add a space-filling comment directed towards editors on every soft redirect page. Example at Red-handed. Of course, this is a minor waste of space, and it's a silly workaround at heart, so I'm a little ambivalent about recommending it as a solution. • Benc • 23:09, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • I doubt that would work long term. Is there an way to modify how Special:Shortpages is generated, to eliminate any pages with only template content (anything wrapped in "{{ }}")? -- Netoholic @ 23:38, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Apparently, this fix never went through. People are still adding long hidden comments to pages using the {{wi}} template. In order to standardize the approach, you can now substitute in {{longcomment}} to the page. That will add just enough characters that it passes the threshold and keep these pages from showing up as a false-positive. Rossami (talk) 18:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
  • yes please. --evrik (talk) 19:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This is horrible

We shouldn't just have this notice on pages. Since when do we decide that there should never be an article with a certain name??? Because that's what that notice basically does. I don't like dicdefs on wikipedia at all, but this is going to the extreme. Dori | Talk 20:10, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

No it doesn't at all and I don't understand why you think it does. If for whatever reason (changing policy on Wikipedia, external factors changing) that an article is more appropriate than a redirect to Wiktionary, simply overwrite the template with the article. Pcb21| Pete 20:28, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
First because it doesn't appear as a red link, second, because newcomers may not know that they can just get rid of this message and write something there. Dori | Talk 20:32, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
Eh, a blue link means that an article on that subject is not allowed? We expect newcomers to learn a million and one things, this one is no different, and in practice this template is only used in borderline cases, so the number of overwritings is likely to be small. Pcb21| Pete 20:40, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A blue link means that an article exists, anyone following the link will instead just see a page directing them only to the wiktionary, thus discouraging the creating of an article there. We all know that red links stimulate the creation of articles, and that dic defs are the easiest for newcomers to create, and that this notice will discourage them. It will also discourage the creation of valid articles under these names. And we should make it easier for newcomers to get started not harder. If it's hard now, it doesn't mean that it's OK to make it harder for them. We should make the whole process easier. Just now I was wondering how to go about listing a cat for deletion. I've been on Wikipedia since 2003, and I didn't feel like hunting around for some procedure. Dori | Talk 21:09, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
I think I need to some evidence of the harmful effect that you predict because at the moment I just don't see it happening. The articles that have had this template put upon them have generally gone through VfD and had a strong "move to wiktionary" vote. I think the value of the cross-wiki fertilization far outweighs the possible downside you have identified.
P.s. Wikipedia:Categories for deletion. Pcb21| Pete 21:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't think we ought to be encouraging newbies to create duplicates of dicdefs which already exist. If the community has decided that "foo" is not something we want to have an article on, we ought to record that community consensus in some way - and, moreover, one person doesn't get to overturn that community consensus by being bold. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Does the current revision make everybody happy? —siroχo 23:21, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

Not really, not an article not a redirect, yet in the main namespace. Dori | Talk 02:24, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
I like it, in the spirit of compromise. Dori, what is the problem with having a new page type - a soft redirect if you will? Pcb21| Pete 06:45, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I still feel the same way about this, but when I am the only one crying about something I usually drop the matter. Dori | Talk 12:58, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think this template is very useful and should be encouraged. RickK 05:32, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

This is terrible - it makes it very difficult to edit these pages - I fell foul of this once already. Mark Richards 19:41, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

How? Pcb21| Pete 21:23, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A plain cross-project redirect to the Wiktionary is what's impossible to edit (without hand-crafting the appropriate URL). This template makes it far easier to do so. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I find this a sneaky way to get around the rule the Wikipedia is not a dictionary (without claiming that was its intent). But if you don't like that rule, try to change it, and propose merging Wiktionary with Wikipedia, rather than working around it like this and then claiming the result is a compromise. It's a clear breaking of the rule. Pages consisting of nothing but weblinks are also supposedly discouraged here. And I don't see why Wikipedia should particularly link to Wiktionary or vice verse. This smells of preferring something because it is in-house rather than because it is best. You would also put links to other dictionaries on the page if you really wanted to give most value. We often give external links from articles to pages that have better and fuller discussions on the topic than Wikipedia does, and quite rightly. So do Encarta and Britannica. Are other external links to other dictionaries forbidden on these pages? Why? Who has decreed this and by what authority? Also articles are not supposed to consist of "Mere collections of external links" or "Mere collections of internal links". Is a collection of one not a collection? This appears to me to effectively break the policy of Wikipedia not being a dictionary and break the policy of Wikipedia and Wiktionary being separate and break the policy of articles not being mere web links. And by what rule are people prevented from now creating thousands of such pages is this is allowed? Jallan 01:48, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Considering what the text currently is for a nonexistant page (click that to see, it links to wiktionary), I don't think this is much different, it simply confirms that indeed there is a definition of the term at wiktionary. This template is basically different boiler plate text for a currently empty entry. —siroχo 04:31, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
I don't look at these pages as primarily information (i.e. the Wikitionary link). If that's all they were, Jallan's points would be well taken. Rather, a main motivation for this template is to prevent the creation of (potentially duplicate) dicdef's. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not so horrible, but not great either

There needs to be a way to exclude pages with this template on it from appearing on Special:Shortpages and from being counted as articles (all that is needed is a single internal link to be counted as an article; for example Flagrante delicto is counted as an article, which is absurd). These pages also need to be excluded from special:random page, otherwise that function will become useless when/if each Wiktionary entry has a corresponding page with the WI template on it here. At the same time these pages should show up in standard searches. --mav 20:43, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Revert

I reverted back to the version with self references, as it better models a page like this —siroχo 00:47, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Reverted back. See wikipedia:avoid self references. The example you note is in part of the message system of the software and thus is changed automatically based on the site name. This template is placed on article pages. Use of Wikipedia makes the resulting article pages less useful to downstream users (who would want to remove such self-references). --mav 17:01, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Agree with mav. -- Netoholic @ 17:26, 2004 Oct 29 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion.

This template might provide a link to a wiktionary article that is certain to exist. But we should keep in mind that putting it on the page makes the link to the article blue, when there's in fact no article to read which hurts wikipedia. Also, empty pages provide a link to look up the term in Wiktionary, even if it's not certain the term is there. Wouldn't the right course of action be to simply create the entry at wiktionary, instead of using this template?

Since Wikipedia's goal is to make an encyclopedia, I don't see how this template would help. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 12:06, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

This template exists to facilitate border encyclopedia/dictionary cases. Please give me a shout if you would like it explained in detail/again/slowly. Pcb21| Pete 00:40, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A main motivation for this template is explicitly to prevent the creation of duplicate dicdef's; we don't want someone to create those articles. Noel (talk) 22:51, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please, explain in detail, cause I think that if "There is no encyclopedia article for "Wi"." as the template states the article should be left as a red link which doesn't happen when the template is added to it. Maybe it needs a little rewording? [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 09:50, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
On sober reflection my previous seems a bit odd. Apologies.
The intent of the template is that it should be used when a title is border line encyclopedia/dictionary, and when the community consensus (cough) has determined that the title belongs on the dictionary side of the border. However people will go on creating links to this borderline article. If we don't have a template, someone will fill that red link with another dicdef, and the cycle begins again. Having a blue link, which as you suggest implicitly suggests we have an encyclopedia article (when in fact we have a pointer to a dictionary entry) is to my mind really no great loss at all compared to the gain of wasted effort battling over wikipedia/wiktionary. Pcb21| Pete 16:08, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Parameter version of template?

Hello. I still consider myself to be a Wikipedia newbie, and I've only used this template once to create a soft redirect but like the current version. Has anyone considered creating a version of this template that accepts a parameter--so something like {{wipar|parameter}}? This would function much like the {{Wiktionarypar}} template. The purpose of such a template would be to allow the editor to link to Wiktionary under something other than PAGENAME. Thanks. Lbbzman 19:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Can you give an example of where that would be useful? This template is usedused on page titles that would otherwise be no more than dicdefs. -- Netoholic @ 23:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Sure. I recently placed the tag on Purlins. The correct Wiktionary article is "purlin" (singular). I suppose I could have created a redirect on Wikipedia from Purlins to Purlin, and then placed the {{wi}} tag on the new page, but creating a redirect to a soft redirect didn't seem like the right answer. As it stands now, a user clicking on the link in the template will be taken to a search page for the plural form, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Just wondering if wipar makes sense or not. Lbbzman 01:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the best solution is to just add redirects on Wikipedia from plural to singular, as I've done. I then added the Wikitionary template to that singular page. -- Netoholic @ 05:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This template already takes an optional parameter; {{wi|purlin}} would have done what you wanted. —Cryptic (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Good to know. Thanks, Cryptic. As I mentioned, I still don't have the hang of deciphering templates, so if there isn't clear documentation on the discussion page, it's difficult for me to tell. Thanks again! Lbbzman 22:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that this template took an optional parameter (I didn't even know optional parameters were possible!) - so I've created a separate one that does {{Widirect}}. Feel free to TfD it if you think neccessary, but if you do update the WP:SISTER page to let people know about the parameter! Thryduulf 14:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Version Wording

The language of this template was changed in the last couple of months. Does anyone else prefer the older version? I don't think the template should state that an encyclopedia article is not possible (even if it's toned down to some as with Croquant's edit). The previous version seemed sufficient to discourage repeated definition creation. -- JLaTondre 21:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the "because some Wikipedia editors believe such an entry would merely be a dictionary definition" part. There are too many cases where it's possible for an encyclopedia article to be generated, but the current article is merely a dictdef. Having that phrase makes the template unusable in those places. We shouldn't be saying an encyclopedia article is impossible in all cases. -- JLaTondre 01:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad for Wikibooks and wikisource etc.

I still don't think this template is a good idea. Keeping the MediaWiki:Noarticletext means it also suggests you to look at other Wikimedia projects besides wiktionary. This template takes that away. -Mgm|(talk) 10:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Because we all know everyone spends a lot of time checking thoroughly and researching before creating articles, heh. I don't see how this template really hurts anything. --W.marsh 14:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Anyway the point is just to prevent people creating dicdefs again and again independent of eachother. I thought there was a similar template for Wikibooks and Wikisource, but I can't find them at a glance. If they really don't exist, creating them might be a good idea. --W.marsh 16:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What about when a dictdef has never been created there, and likely never will be? Use one's loaf and its redirect Use One's Loaf were newly created just with this template. There is nothing in their deletion logs and no articles link to them. Also, if it is to be properly useful, we should create redirects Use my loaf and Use your loaf (as well as, in the vein of its creation, their various capitalizations), which would be the actual common use of the term rather than the generic. —Centrx→talk • 04:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
There should be a statement limiting its use. —Centrx→talk • 11:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe a notice that it is appropriate to delete after a brief period of time for orphans and nearly orphaned pages? —Centrx→talk • 04:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "May like to search"?

I found this phrase clumsy, "you may like to search wiktionary instead", I replaced "like" with "want". I'm not in love with my current wording, feel free to replace this with something else reasonable if my current wording still isn't the best. --Xyzzyplugh 04:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted sentence

I deleted the following sentence: "If a page is not prone to chronic re-creation, delete the page with this template after a reasonable period of time". I don't see that we have any consensus that this template shouldn't stay permanently. --Xyzzyplugh 14:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, they show up on Random article. A reader should never be sent to a wiktionary redirect. If it is a link used in articles, those generic words should be unlinked (or linked to the proper target), and then the page deleted; new links should not be created thinking there is an article there. —Centrx→talk • 02:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New wording

Can I propose new wording as follows
Wikipedia does not currently have an encyclopedia article for Wi.

You may wish to refer to Wi on Wiktionary, our sister project for dictionary definitions.

Edit this page to begin an article here, but please remember that Wikipedia is not a dictionary.
Conrad.Irwin 17:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Looks good, though I think the last part should be stronger and more direct: Wikipedia is not a dictionary, do not create a mere dictionary definition here. —Centrx→talk • 06:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Text

After finding the template {{Wi}} I seem to have made some faulty assumptions see User_talk:Jeepday#Wiktionary_redirects I would like to suggest a rewording of the text for it.

[edit] Current Text

This template is only for dictionary definitions that currently exist on Wiktionary and which are likely to be re-created in unencyclopedic form.

Do not place it on every word!

[edit] Suggested Text

This template is only for dictionary definitions that currently exist on Wiktionary and which due to there repeated unencyclopedic creation and deletion are likely to be re-created in unencyclopedic form.

Do not place it on every word!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jeepday (talk • contribs) 13:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I made the change, slightly abbreviated. —Centrx→talk • 23:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Works for me thanks (remembered to sign this time} Jeepday 02:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed change

The wording "do not create a mere dictionary definition" (my emphasis) implies that a full dictionary article, with etymology and usage notes, is acceptable at Wikipedia. This contradicts WP:WINAD, which says that full dictionary articles go in Wiktionary not Wikipedia. Propose change to say "please note that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Information about specific words and names is usually suitable for Wiktionary." Or something like that. Pan Dan 15:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It is technically correct. I changed it a bit so it is more clear, [2]. —Centrx→talk • 16:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, both "mere(ly)" and "definition" are problematic. Per WP:WINAD, dictionary articles (i.e. articles appropriate for Wiktionary but not Wikipedia) are neither mere, nor merely definitions. How about "please do not create a dictionary article" (with a link to WP:WINAD to explain what a dictionary article is). Pan Dan 16:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is the purpose of this and soft redirects?

These are counted as articles in the main namespace, correct? Why shouldn't we just salt these pages instead? It's not that difficult to get to Wiktionary...--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 08:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

In many cases, an actual encyclopedic article could potentially be written. Salting would prevent that from happening. The template is to discourage the recreation of definitions; it is not to prevent valid article creation. -- JLaTondre 14:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soft redirect discussion

I have started a discussion on soft redirects, and their future on the project, here. Any input from people knowledable about redirects in general is welcome and encouraged. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by TexasAndroid (talk • contribs) 19:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)