Talk:Why did the chicken cross the road?

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    I have completely re-written the article. It makes several talk sections obsolete. Vote to archive. --Otheus 15:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

    Contents

    [edit] Origins

    [edit] Shiprock Story Doubtful

    I'm sorry, but the explanation provided in the article seems like a bit of bull, and far less likely than the common explanation that it's simply anti-humor.

    This is the only reference I know of and what it said has been written in the article. If you have any reasons to contest the reference, please provide your reference. If there are any alternate origins according to you, they can be added, provided they are backed by verifiable sources. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
    (Note that I'm not the user who commented above.) Ever hear the expression "don't believe everything you read"? That story has all the earmarks of a fanciful explanation invented after the fact for what is really a very obvious and easy-to-understand joke with no need of a complicated origin story. If we're going to keep it around because there's a printed source (which I disagree with, look at snopes.com and see how many urban legends have shown up in newspapers as true stories) then we should at least preface it with strong disclaimers. DopefishJustin 09:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
    Even I don't believe everything I read, and snopes is a favorite destination of mine to debunk many of the hoax e-mail claims that turn up ever so often. Even if its not snopes, I use google to good effect to trace the hoaxness of any story. It is alright to say that the joke doesn't need any origin, but that doesn't mean that we ignore the reported origins. I believed Reader's Digest to be an above average source and hence included the reference. Though the reference is from a local-language edition, AFAIK, it must have been forked from the English edition, something that been a best-selling general magazine in the United States. I think you are opposing to the source because it doesn't fit your perception. Unless there is a strong reason to doubt the source mentioned, I am against placing a warning/disclaimer. If you want the readers to be aware of the source without going to the references, you may add "According to Reader's Digest" in the text, which will let the readers assess the reputation of the source. And please don't mind the copyedit, and feel free to correct the sentences, if you find any. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 11:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
    Concerning Reader's Digest being "an above average source", I'd say this is fanciful. It publishes mainly freelance articles; editing is hardly journalistic. Not that it isn't sourcable here, but this origin is not likely for a variety of reasons, discussed below. --Otheus 15:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

    The article currently states:

    One such story relates to the meaning of the word chicken as a cowardly person. As the story goes, the town of Shiprock, New Mexico had problems relating to poverty. Some of the poor children would get drunk and cross the road in order to show their bravery. Many times, this resulted in serious injury because of oncoming traffic, and sometimes even death. Knowing that the injured/dead person was a coward (chicken), people asked each other "Why did the chicken cross the road?" The original answer to this question was then "Because he was drunk." [1]

    This makes no sense for the following reasons:

    1. If people crossed the road while drunk "to show their bravery", then someone who unsuccessfully crossed the road while drunk would not normally be considered a coward (chicken). By that standard, the people who would be considered cowards would be those who refused to attempt crossing the road, not those who tried to do so but failed.
    2. Shiprock, New Mexico currently has a population less than 9,000 people. The joke as we know it today was already known, and probably old, by 1915 (as indicated by the Writing for Vaudeville text cited in the article). According to the U.S. Census, the population of Shiprock in 1910 was only 179. U.S. Census (see p. 9) How much motor vehicle traffic could there have been in Shiprock, New Mexico, in 1915? My guess would be "not much". There were only about 2.5 million registered motor vehicles in the United States in 1915 [1] for a population of about 100 million [2], so if this rural town on an Indian reservation kept up with the national car ownership rate (unlikely in itself), it would have had about 5 motor vehicles in 1915. In other words, crossing the road in Shiprock in 1915 was probably very unlike trying to walk across the Autobahn or the Santa Monica Freeway today.
    3. The source given is a Hindi-language edition of Reader's Digest; surely there would be a source more local to Shiprock if the story were authentic.

    It's possible that "... Because he was drunk" was created in later years as a sardonic version of the original non-joke, but it would then just be a non-notable variation of the original "... To get to the other side", not the origin of the original joke which is what we are looking for. --Metropolitan90 19:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    Although not a clear example of the joke, I think I have pushed the dating back another ten years in At the Sign of the Jack O' Lantern (1905) by Myrtle Reed [3] MeltBanana 22:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
    (I added RD origin). The story I read (and reported here) is a memoir of the (living) author. This means it can't possibly go back to 1905~15. If the joke is supposed to exist as back as that time, then I think that the reported origin is mistaken. Definitely we should rely on the earliest possible mention. So should we remove the said origin? — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 08:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
    While with the 1905 claim of origin, I am myself now unsure if RD reported it correctly and so wouldn't oppose if this said origin is removed. But per say, I don't see any logical inconsistancy with the RD claim. The children in question were considered chicken (coward) in real life by their friends. So it would be natural to ask why they crossed the road. Expanding the quote for your understanding, we have: "Why did the person (who is a chicken in real life) tried to cross the road?". The answer would be "Although the person is a coward, he tried to cross the road as he was drunk". (Note: The expanded quotes were not reported and I made them up for your understanding). Hope this resolved the inconsistancy. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 10:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
    Ambuj, thanks for responding. Your explanation does answer my first objection, but I still tend to think that at most the Shiprock story was a version of the existing classic riddle, rather than the originator of the joke, due to the fact that the joke can be dated to a time before there was any significant motor traffic in Shiprock. Do you have the Reader's Digest article available to you to confirm exactly what the article says? I placed a notice on the notice board for India-related topics to see if anyone else could confirm the content of the article but received no response. --Metropolitan90 18:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Prohibition?

    http://experts.about.com/q/Etymology-Meaning-Words-1474/Chicken.htm claims that it originated as one of a common class of jokes among US middle-schoolers during Prohibition. However it cites no references. -- Securiger 03:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Puns

    This is how I've understood the joke for some time now, and do correct me if I'm wrong... aside from the anti-humour, it could also be interpreted as a pun. 'The other side' could refer to the other side of the road or to the other side of the grave, which the chicken will probably reach if it encounters traffic.

    Interesting, because I always interpreted the joke as a pun on the word "cross," since to cross something also has the meaning to curse at something. If this is the more common understanding to someone, then the joke poses a tense question (something that seems to be the equivalent of "why did the chicken curse the road?") and then resolves it with the play on the word "cross."RSimione 21:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Real roads

    I am surprised at the explanations in the article and in the thread here-above. Anyone who has some experience with chickens running loose near a road will eventually notice that when a car approaches they tend to first sit and wait at the side of the road and then start running across at the worst possible moment. Loads of chickens get killed that way (I once flattened one on a motorbike in Thailand). So people all over the world will have wondered about this and asked the question. Some of those who didn't come up with the obvious answer (it's some sort of flight behaviour that doesn't work with the speed of cars) will have come up with this funny answer (to get to the other side). So the question is not really meant as a joke. The answer is, though. I don't have any sources for this, though. It just makes a lot of sense to me. DirkvdM 07:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

    While I went about searching the net for possible origins, I found an origin claim that was consistant with what you said above. Initially I added it to the article (see lawsuit origin), but later when I couldn't find any back up of the claim from reliable source, I removed those origin claims. If you find any reference for this story dated before 1905, please add it to the article. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 09:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Further Reading

    [edit] roumazeilles.net link

    I found this article dubious. His best effort reveals that he thinks the joke was a meme evolved from its parodies. But sure enough, there is very little on the Web or newsgroups about this. The earliest reference I found was in 1984, but at least that references the original joke. -- Otheus 15:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Google Books

    I found a documentable reference for this joke's humor being that it's not funny. It is (via Google-books) (--Otheus 12:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)):

    Developmental Psychology: A Topical Approach By David S. Moshman, John A. Glover, Roger H. Bruning, p 424; Published 1987

    Little, Brown; ISBN 0316585610

    "That's not funny at all. But its unfunniness is what is supposed to be funny..." Unfortunately, the rest of the book cannot be seen due to the nature of Google books.
    Psychology in the Making: histories of selected research problems; Leo Postman; 1962; Knopf

    This one cites the complete joke:

    Psyche: An Annual General and Linguistic Psychology; 1931; edited by Charles Kay Odgen; K. Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., Ltd.

    There's a 1918 reference which quotes only the question but refers to the joke as old.

    The Greatest of These -- by Laurette Taylor, Published 1918, George H. Doran company, p. 17; Original from the University of Michigan

    Google hits this, but the scan does not show:

    At the Sign of the Jackle Lantern:Myrtle Reed; 1905; G. P. Putnam's sons; 353 pages; Original from the University of Michigan
    How much is three times humpty-steen?
    Elaine, Have you forgotten?
    Why does a chicken cross the road?
    Who carries home a toper's load?
    You are so very stupid, dear!
    Elaine, have you forgotten?
    From the digitized version of the 2005 publication

    The Stanford University Year Book of the Junior Class of 1894 quotes a variation of the joke and refers ttto it being Irish:

    Why Does the Chicken Cross the Road?
    That Chicken Didn't cross the road, ye spalpeen; it's the 17th of April.

    Potter's American Monthly (1882), p. 319, has the variation:

    Why should not a chicken cross the road? It would be a fowl proceeding.

    The question is, is this from 1882, or is an issue from a another year? The other question is: Maybe this is the original.

    We see a similar reference in 1876's The Harvard Lampoon:

    Osgar, For why does the chicken cross the road? .. Why must yon fowl deflect across the common way?

    Another book (The Canteburry Puzzles, by Henry Dudney [4] claims the original answer was "To worry the chauffeur". But this word did not exist until 1899 (See [5]).

    [edit] Usenet References

    On Jan 2000, "Joseph Nebus" writes, [6]

    By sheer coincidence I was reading the Sunday, July 27, 1919 edition of "Krazy Kat," by renowned cartoonist George Herriman ... "And so, you see now, fellas -- just why the chicken crossed the road" -- prompting the oysters, "these mild minded children of the sea, susceptible to humor, [to] give vent to unrestrained laughter, wide, and open" their mouths, letting the mice prop them open with twigs (so they can't flee to the sea to escape, lest they drown).
    So by 1919 the chicken-crossing-the-road joke was well known and apparently in its present form of a joke everyone would recognize as a joke, and one not so amusing as to intrude with the real storyline.

    Then there's this: --Otheus

    Loony Laws & Silly Statutes By Sheryl Lindsell-Roberts, Published 1994 Sterling Publishing Company, Inc; ISBN 0806904720
    In Quitman, Georgia, it is illegal for a chicken to cross the road

    And that reminds of the version "Why does the chicken cross the street?" "Because there are no policechickens in the neighbourhood, that could verbalise it for neglecting the red light." James Blond 21:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Claim of earlier comic

    Wikipedia and Yahoo Answers Not Sure: When Did the Chicken Cross the Road? http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/6/prweb533809.htm

    I took the liberty of removing the duplicated text of the XooxleAnswers press release, and will refrain from commenting on its claims, which do not relate to the article. The cite from Knickerbocker Magazine is most welcome. I also removed an anonymous, unsourced addition to the article that claimed an even earlier possible origin. If that editor has solid sourcing for the info, I hope s/he will add it. -- Rob C (Alarob) 16:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
    Removed the Harvard Lampoon reference, which seemed garbled and may have been missing context. Also deleted a trivial reference to the use of the joke in a movie. I hope it won't be necessary to fend off a host of incidental references to the chicken joke from every corner of pop culture. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 05:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Variations

    There are many variations in the form of "Why did the [insert target group here] cross the road", should the article title changed into something like Lightbulb joke? Bennylin (talk) 02:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)