Talk:Whoniverse

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on October 25, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.


Contents

[edit] K9 Adventures

As a non-BBC production with no BBC-owned characters, I wouldn't be so quick to categorise it as "definitely the canon", at least not until it's actually been broadcast. Daibhid C 00:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, as such I've ammended the article for the time being. We can only wait for the series really, whe have no way to tell if it will fit canon at the moment. --GracieLizzie 13:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why oh why?

This is just a fan term right? So forgive me, why the frak is it being implemented accross several articles? MatthewFenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 23:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the use of Whoniverse in article titles or info boxes The Rift (Whoniverse) and such either, but I don't think it unreasonable for there to be a Whoniverse article. As there is a Buffyverse article and other similar articles on wikipedia too. --GracieLizzie 23:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The article is reasonable.. but the term suffixed to articles is imo so not. MatthewFenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 23:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I can see why it's being done, though; someone thought that neither Rift (Doctor Who) or Rift (Torchwood) was appropriate for something that plays a significant part in both series. The same principle is behind article titles like Vampire (Buffyverse). Daibhid C 17:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
And for John Sheppard (Stargate) despite him (almost) only appearing on Stargate Atlantis.--Codenamecuckoo 19:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
It strikes me that the most appropriate formal alternative would be "Doctor Who universe" (and "Stargate universe" in the cuckoo's example). Ultimately, "Whoniverse" doesn't bother me terribly, as long as it's used consistently; though i do feel that pang of weirdness due to it being an arguably casual term. —überRegenbogen 01:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Though the term came from fandom, it is being increasingly adopted by the mainstream press. Just how strong a hold it has will probably depend on how long the show is popular with mainstream audiences. But the fact that we can cite where the word has appeared in a headline and in a piece detailing the events of a charity otherwise totally unrelated to Doctor Who suggests that the term has a growing applicability. CzechOut 07:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute

I find the description of the Whoniverse page too simplistic and general- there seems a reluctance to expand any of the more interesting aspects which are fundamental themes of the television programmes which Doctor Who is built upon.

I could not disagree more. The notion of what is interesting is subjective, therefore the article should be broad as Whoniverse encompasses anything. Specific information belongs in specific articles, which are linked where appropriate - in context. Too much detail disrupts the flow from point to point, which as I left it was logically flowing from the concept of order (and touching upon the Black/White Guardians) to theology (Beast, ghosts, "nothing"), enclosing more on Earth and the uniqueness of Earth itself in the Whoniverse.~ZytheTalk to me! 00:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
There are a couple of things to consider here. Firstly, whether any expansions are original research, which we have to keep to an absolute minimum. Secondly, whether the information is actually of interest to non-fans, i.e. is it too fancrufty for an article of this nature. Actually, as it is, Whoniverse is not as good as it should be, but not because it doesn't include information like the Daleks being more advanced than the Time Lords, but because the real-world connections are sparse. If Whoniverse is to be a really good article, it needs more grounding in the real world, not trivia about whose technology is better. The criticism about "reluctance to expand any of the more interesting aspects" is not particularly constructive because there's no mention on what these "more interesting aspects which are the fundamental themes" are. In any case, all Wikipedia articles are works in progress.
The About Time books do a much better job of explaining the themes and cultural history behind the series precisely because Miles and Woods contextualise them properly. Rob77's edits don't really answer the question begged at the end of it: "So what?" and being so specific to Daleks and Time Lords it has no impact on the "Whoniverse" at large. It's just not particularly interesting in the context of the article. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 00:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research- come off it, anyone who writes this is going to be a fan who has watched it. How the hell can anyone write it otherwise? And regarding technology- you are writing about a show which has run for 43 years with its central tenet that the lead character is an alien capable of travelling in time and space and yet you claim that it isn't relevant to a description of the Universe. The technology portrayed in the show has always been integral to it and most of the shows from the beginning focus upon thje potentially destructive aspects of, and misuse stemming from, advanced technology. As for so what- they are the two most powerful races in the universe who fought a major war- yet you don't think their possession of such technology is relevant? As I said to Zythe, you can contextualize all you want, but such a ham-fisted approach to editing is at best pedantic and at worse showing a fundamental ignorance about the universe that you are supposedly trying to describe. Rob 12:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course you can write about Doctor Who in a real-world context. Go read History of Doctor Who, for example. You still don't seem to understand that this is a general article, and should be describing it in general terms, not chronicle every little event that takes place. You might be happier contributing to the TARDIS Index file, which doesn't have such constraints on notability, original research and other pedantic Wikipedia policies. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I've read that article- it describes the production of its history of the TV prog- and its relevance to an article describing a fictional universe is precisely zero. Your point is? It seems to have absolutely no connection to the debate in hand. Notability- you are suggesting that the Dalek possession of advanced technology in the context of Doctor Who is not notable? HAve you actually watched the last series? Perhaps the possession of that technology resulted in the events of the last two episodes? Which resulted in the potential collapse of two universes? And in what sense is the description of events as portrayed in a television series original research pray? Rob 13:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You keep talking about "fundamental themes". How is the acquisition of a piece of technology a "fundamental theme"? And yes, Dalek possession of advanced technology is not notable in relation to an article about the general features of a fictional universe. The impact has not changed any of the "fundamental themes" or features of the universe a whit. This is not an article about current events in the Doctor Who universe. This is an article about what the Doctor Who universe is. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

By that rationale- all mention of races, such as humanity, should be removed from the article. Why is it acceptable for statements to remain in such as "humans by the 51st century have aquired time travel" but not to remark on the development of void ship technology. And you seem to be missing the point which has been made continually, namely that it is impossible to understand the nature of the universe which you are seeking to describe without comprehending the impact which the possession of advanced technology by certain species has upon that universe. I would have thought that the "fracturing of realities" as portrayed in the last series is an event of quite substantial importance in the history of the universe, as it has certainly never been shown previously in the television programme- and yet you dismiss any reference to it as "description of current events." DO you not think that an event of this magnitude is worthy of a mention, even in passing, rather than being dismissed out of hand as a "current event?"Rob 16:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And what would be the impact of Void Ship technology upon the universe? Absolutely nothing. Fracturing of realities? Lasted two episodes. Never shown previously in the television programme? So what?
The development of time travel by humans is in the context of talking about Earth's future as portrayed in the show, not as some key event. It could also stand to be contextualised further, or removed as well. This is not a history of the Doctor Who universe. This is an article about the general features of the universe. I can't make it any plainer. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 16:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

If this article is just about the universe then how can it possibly be acceptable to leave in a statement about something which supposedly happens in the future, which may or may not ever be portrayed on screen (or altered indeed) but not to leave in an event which has already happened? The Universe cannot be understood without a comprehension of what goes on inside it and what impinges upon it. You seem to think you have carte blanche to dictate what goes into any article relating to Doctor Who, and yet you have failed, once again, to answer a perfectly simple question, namely how can you understand the nature of the universe without appreciating the impact of the technology portrayed on it. FOr a supposed fan you are remarkably blinkered about this matter. I have a great deal of respect for Zythe, whose approach is far more conciliatory and is an excellent contributor, yet you seem to think that anyone elses opinion on Doctor Who is not worth having expressed. Rob 17:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me try once again to explain this: there is nothing to show that the Daleks obtaining Void Ship technology has any lasting impact on the universe. So to devote an entire paragraph to it seems out of place in a general article. In fact, very little technology, if at all, as portrayed in the Doctor Who universe has any impact on the universe at large, given the nature and scope of the fictional universe. You're trying to impart this particular event, the Void Ship, with a significance that is unwarranted in an article of this nature. I note you haven't answered any of my questions, either, the most important being: "So What?"
Your respect for me is not really of concern. What I'm concerned about is sticking to Wikipedia policies of no original research, proper citation and verifiability. You're free to ask for further opinions if you want. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 17:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The very fact that a species has the ability to develop a void ship and its impact or otherwise, is a fundamental aspect of the universe you are describing. You ask So What- because its science fiction- science as a result is quite important. What is the point of Doctor Who, you might as well ask. The fact that such an event is possible in the universe, is notable in itself- it is illustrative of the nature of a fictional setting, and the races that populate it. The specific reference to the void ship is because it is an example of the impact science can have in a fictional universe in which advanced science is prominent, as it is in most science fiction settings. As for respect- it has to be earnt. Although for someone who isn't bothered about it, you seem to be very keen to try and impress people, from the way you are keen to list your supposed achievments on your user page. Zythe, the principle contributor to this article, and I have discussed possible aspects for expansion already. You are, of course, welcome to read and contribute. Rob 17:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

"The specific reference to the void ship is because it is an example of the impact science can have in a fictional universe in which advanced science is prominent, as it is in most science fiction settings." There are many, many such examples in the Doctor Who universe of advanced science — this is not any more significant as any other to be singled out. That's what I mean by too specific for a general article. Why this example, out of countless others, is what is meant by "So what?". "The very fact that a species has the ability to develop a void ship and its impact or otherwise, is a fundamental aspect of the universe you are describing." That sentence doesn't even make sense; an ability that a species has is a fundamental aspect? What does that even mean?
You and Zythe go ahead and work it out. Expansions of articles are welcome as long as they stick to Wikipedia guidelines and policies. You're right in that respect has to be earned; I simply do not care whether I earn yours or not. You're not that important to me. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You have little chance of so doing, I can assure you of that, so it is good that you don't care. THe void ship is one example, and was selected, as I have already explained previously, to demonstrate that the Daleks have exceeded even the Timelords in technological achievment. The ability of species to develop technology is essential to the fictional setting of a series about science fiction.It wouldn't be much cop as a science fiction series if noone could make scientific advances, would it? Makes perfect sense, you just seem to have difficulty appreciating the point being made. Anyway, have fun with the composing. Rob 18:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

One might point out that there is no evidence that the Daleks developed the Void ship themselves. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 18:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair point, but on the available evidence, it appears a fair supposition to make. Without some such deduction, there is precious little point in writing an article of this nature.

I maintain that the reference to Void Ships is totally unnecessary, and may I add that the 51st century line is an adaption of a line someone else added - I am not fond of it. The article does lack information regarding the Daleks - although does not require very much at all, perhaps as they have been mentioned will be sufficient or maybe a paragraph on fame and notoriety might be needed, describing Whoniverse celebrities and historical events, such as the Face of Boe, Time War etc.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't have much to say about the specifics of the "Features" section, except to agree that it really should be kept to a minumum, with links to more details in the appropriate articles. The opening paragraph, "Overview" and "Inclusion" sections seem more encyclopedic to me - I would suggest these sections be expanded, and more secondary sources cited (per the guidelines on writing about fiction). --Brian Olsen 05:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temporal disposition of encyclopedic compilation.

[I can get away with that kind of language, given the subject of the article. ;)]

"These elements were codifed and consolidated once the original television series ended"

This is inaccurate. People were compiling such information long before production of the original series ceased. Suggest: "Over the years, These elements were codifed and consolidated..."

Also the specific mention of VHS in the same paragraph is superfluous—as well as incomplete, as many formats (including Betamax, U-Matic, various open-reel video formats, and even film) are involved. (This is really part of the subject of recovering lost episodes, anyway, rather than compilation of encyclopædia—the latter being based upon the entire body of the series, rather than just the recovered lost material.) —überRegenbogen 01:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Not entirely certain, but 84.64.167.23 (talk · contribs) possibly made those additions. Since I'm not familiar with the spin-off media, I left it.~ZytheTalk to me! 16:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Features" section

I keep rereading the "Features" section and keep coming away dissatisfied. It lacks focus, but I'm not sure how quite to fix it. It's almost like there needs to be a "before RTD" and "after RTD" section. Or, to keep things in the spirit of the fiction, a "before Time War" and "after Time War" section.

The section makes a big deal out of "humanoid and other bipedal aliens" in its first sentence, but I don't buy that for a second. One of the features of the Whoniverse, as apposed to the Star Trek universe, is the relatively higher proportion\ of non-humanoid species. Laying to one side the three non-humanoid species in "The Web Planet" alone, you really gotta work hard to call a Dalek either humanoid or bipedal.

I almost feel as though the second paragraph of the section, with modifications, should be the first.

The third paragraph, about Earth, is perhaps the strongest. However, it's criminal, somehow, that no mention is made of the critical importance of the date in the modern Whoniverse Earth; namely the criticality of Aliens of London in setting up for all three series that "contemporary Earth" means one year than the year of first-run broadcast in Britain. In other words, right now, it's 2008 across the Whoniverse. The effect of having Earthbound characters ancilliary to the companion is that we see each new episode happens at a later moment on Earth, and that there is a ripple effect which subsequently spreads to the spin-off shows.

Does anyone else think the section needs a major overhaul? CzechOut 08:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

By all means, improve it but I don't agree with the before and after subsections, we should treat the entire series as a whole with distinctions in production era given in references. So yeah, mention Daleks and Macra, find books that comment upon the Star Wars comparison. Definitely talk about the one year later setting, although that could be expanded into a whole paragraph if you can somehow integrate the UNIT dating stuff in there. :) ~ZytheTalk to me! 15:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)