Talk:White Hispanic and Latino Americans/Archive 1

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Contents 1 This article should be moved to "White Hispanics in the United States" 2 On second thought... 3 Add other White Hispanics 4 Representation 5 hair color 6 Images of White Hispanics 7 This article needs to expanded 8 I think a section should be added on what the misrepresentation of "the spanish speaking world" in US media has caused on the image of Spaniards and other white hispanics. 9 Mel Martinez 10 Fake 10.1 There is no reason to call Nadine Velazquez a white hispanic 11 White Hispanics...Mentality... 12 Whiteness is a social construct 13 Jennifer Lopez 14 Are you serious? 15 To the person who says Spaniards aren't white. You are a fool 16 Talk page is deteriorating

This article should be moved to "White Hispanics in the United States"

There are about 40 million of White Hispanics in Spain, and this article does not represent them. It has to be moved; it lies. The Hispanics from Spain are also white and they are also Hispanics since they live in Hispania. And this article is US-based stuff. Onofre Bouvila 19:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

On second thought...

I'm not sure that we need an article about each US Hispanic racial subgroup. If I had to do it over, I wouldn't have re-started this one after I renamed it to White Latin American (to match its contents, since it was actually about White Latin Americans). But it's up already, so I'll leave it to you, fellow Wikipedians, to decide. Obviously, keeping it means we'd have to create articles for the other Hispanic subgroups. Anyway, talk amongst yourselves. SamEV 03:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Add other White Hispanics

There are plenty of white hispanics out there like Daisy Fuentes, Andy Garcia and Benecio Del Toro. Remember that we shouldnt use the Anglo-American definition for "white" which simply only compromises those with Nordic features. Those with Mediterranean features count too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.142.24.192 (talk) 06:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

I'd say Benecio del Toro shows marginally mestizo features, maybe not in build or stature, but facially. The two examples given in the article currently look rather 'alpinid' to me, not nordic. 67.5.157.48 04:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Even if they show marginally mestizo features, that should'nt stop us from including him. We shoudln't be like the Anglo-Americans that incorporate the "one-drop rule" theory. Burt Reynolds, Chuck Norris and Wayne Newton are all seen as "good ol' boy" white dudes but they have admitted to recent and significant Native American blood, making them mestizo by category. Benecio Del Toro looks the same as Reynolds and Netwon in that he is just a 'dark' white man with possible native admixture.

The two examples given are rather alpine, I guess you could say, but most people wouldnt know the difference between the two. In the United States there is a twisted definition of white that is not only ignorant but overtly racist (if you can even call it that). The better term would be classist because, the Americans of Northern European decent consider themselves to be white while they classify Southern and most Eastern Europeans as non-white. And top of that the group designated as non-white has to pretty much rise to the top of the socio-economic ladder to be considered "Anglo" or "White". That explains how Italians (who are a Latin group) and Greeks suddenly became Anglo in the United States. That explains how Cubans in the 1950's were caucasians but suddenly when Castro took power and stranded all the Cubans in America, their "prestige" factor went down, as did their "white" status. The Mariel incident was the final nail in the coffin. I suggest we add a picture of Andy Garcia or Daisy Fuentes to counter that notion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.172.10 (talk) 17:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Most Mexicans are NOT AMERINDIAN While it is true most Mexicans are of Amerindian descent, only about twelve percent are actually primarily Indian. Most are Mestizo, a mix of European and Indian blood.

Representation

I am not generalizing, these are observations made in the news articles,

Yeah you are taking it completely out of context no where does it say Iberian. Iberian and Hispanic are two completely different things. Thats what they mean by Anglo in this case "Anglo" means English Speaker or Anglo Speaker. As for the Scandivanvian reference they mean why are all in Mexican soap Operas are there so many Blondes when Blondes are rare in a mestizo majority country. That is why it is incorrect. (DoubleNine 02:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

According to the map, people from Mediterranean region are on averate a shade darker than those from Northern Europe. Basically there is a relationship between skin pigmentation and latitude. but since these are average values it means there will be some overlap ie some in the south will be blonde and paler, and some in the North will have dark hair and be tanned. The argument in this case is to disproportionately portray people who originate in the Mediterranean regions as people who originate in the arctic regions. yes they will be blond blue eyed hispanics and there will be brunette, tanned scandanavians but only in proportions related to latitude.

Muntuwandi 04:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Please your map is just plan wrong. Look at the US most are Germans and English and Irish and they are darker then Iberians. That is a joke. I removed pictures on talk pages you never put pictures on talk pages . This map seems to do more with radiation from the sun on the earth then anything else. Anyways there are many many blondes in the Iberian pensuila. To suggest that "there will be" is stupid it is common knowelge my friend there are many blondes in Spain ok. You obviously misunderstood me and article no one is saying there arent more blondes in scandinvia then other parts of Europe because there are and it has nothing to do where they are on the earth look at eskimos they are very very dark skinned and are in the way north. My point was you were wrong to say what you put becuase you misunderstood the article period. Your articles say NOTHING about Iberian peoples they talk about HISPANICS, it is well known there are just as many blondes in the Iberian pen. then anywhere else in Europe (except obviously scandivia this goes for the rest of Europe} and that blondes arent limited to one place as you are sugguesting. Hello news alert most Europeans populations have blondes and pently of them! That is just silly.(DoubleNine 05:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

I know, but if I saw Diego Luna and Gael García Bernal on the street and I didn't know they were famous I wouldn't think they were not Mexican. In fact I know a few Bernals with green eyes. --66.161.66.20 15:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

hair color

I would suggest avoiding inflammatory words like "stupid". Also it is not good etiquette to remove someones good faith edits from talk pages, see WP:FAITH. See the articles on Human skin color and hair color According to the hair color map it shows occurrence of blonde hair in europe. All over Europe people with blonde hair can be found but it is distributed North-South. In southern Europe the occurrence of blonde hair is less than 20%, whereas in the North, scandinavia it is more than 80%. That is why the authors of the News articles say that when watching a Telenovela, if most of the actors are blonde it would be more characteristic of scandinavia, than of Latin America, or even spain where many white latin americans are originally from.Muntuwandi 13:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Your also not suppose to add pictures to the talk page. That is why. Please read that section also. In Addition, like I said most Spaniards are a Mediterranean and Nordic types. [1]. Again you fail to realize that of course Scandinavians have a much higher rate of blondes then anywhere in Europe but Spain is not different then other European countries say England, you could see and English man and Spaniard and you cant tell. Most Western Europeans are a mix of different tribes that is the reason. You seem to care more about maps and color etc. While I on the other hand, care about the history the countries. Again is your map totally wrong? No but there is no census on ""Hair color"" in ANY of these countries. This is all based on a POV. The reason Blondes are assoicated with white people is because nearly every European country has a large percentage of them especially in Western Europe. Also I think its funny how the ""skin map"" and ""hair color maps"" dont even match! I again was not the one who changed it rather inforcing it. So there must be a problem with what you said. My source says it and all you can come up with are maps that are completlely unathouratative and have a clear POV. I am trying to keep a clear NPOV of view. You constantly try to prove Scandinvia has more blonde we know that ok!, but Spain has a lot of them also as my athouratative source proves. I think its funny how you keep beating this and beating this to ground with these silly maps of yours. Your sources all they say is that there are so many blondes on that you would think it was in Scandinvia because 75 precent are blondes or so. Also Since most US Hispanics are from Mexico they are saying it is odd that there would be so many Blondes in Mexico since Blondes ARE rare in Mexico but not in Spain. That is all. If you have anything New that is worth it please contriube and I would be happy to hear from you, but if you are going to beat this to ground some more, dont bother.(DoubleNine 14:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

Read Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_comments on editing other peoples comments. It is not allowed. My point is this based on the maps, people in the south are slightly darker than people in the North on average. There are more blondes in the North than in the south of europe where spain is. It is would thus be wrong to portray spanish people or there descendents around the world as being predominantly blonde when according to these articles, maps, and common knowledge they are not. the maps are based on this study[2], you may disagree with the study but thats what they say.Muntuwandi 15:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You said it correctly, they are slightly darker. I never said they werent. However to say they are all dark or another is just plain wrong. That still means they still have lots of blondes. As my source proves. Like it or not. I mean look at France too. North of Italy has a ton of Blondes also. No one is saying Spain is majority Blonde and no one is sure saying any countries other then the Scandivian countries are majority blonde. I dont get why you keep putting this...(DoubleNine 15:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

If we agree, then the issue according to the article, Latin American media tends to portray hispanics as blonde and blue eyed, when in actual fact the majority of them are not.Muntuwandi 15:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but this is not because there Iberians because we agree there are many blondes in Spain. Most Hispanics however are non-white Mestizos (mixed between indian and white). That is why. Spain really has nothing to do with this. (DoubleNine 15:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

this is about whites not mestizos. My argument is that the media avoids whites with a mediterranean appearance in favor of those who look more Nordic by deliberately selecting blonde hispanics, who are a minority, over non-blonde white hispanics who are the majority.Muntuwandi 15:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are trying to prove that then thats not what your articles are saying. Hispanics and White Hispanics are two different things entirely your articles do not talk about white Hispanics they talk about Hispanics in general. That is were you are misunderstanding. There is no "Medditerean look" as we have already discussed. You will see all sorts of different looking people from the Medditerean as most Europeans are mixed as my source proves.(DoubleNine 15:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

Race is now considered a social construct with no biological meaning. however scientists in the 19th century and Early 20th century split Europe into 3 races, The Nordic race, Alpine race and Mediterranean race, largely based on a few physical traits. Scientists have since discarded these theories and they are considered racist. However there legacy silently still remains, because of the preference of Nordic type traits in the Media. Accordingly, there is a Mediterranean lookMuntuwandi 16:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

See you just totally contridicted your self. These "Mediterranean traits" scientist have disproven it since these traits are found everywhere in Europe. So there is no "Mediterranean look" in terms of actual biology. That is one major reason it is discredited because you find many ""Nordic looking"" people all threw out Europe and so on with ""Mediterranean looking"". It was all social not a based on anything other then that. Again your articles DO NOT state White Hispanics they say Hispanics in general this is true since most are in the US are Mestizos. (DoubleNine 16:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

you can have black people and white people, they have different appearances but the concept of race does not hold. even by appearance you can to some extent guess what european region someone comes from. Of course these differences are disappearing because of migrations and intermarriage. but traditionally, you can still recognize the typical scandanavian, dutchman, spaniard, italian, and some eastern Europeans. Someone like Antonio Banderas I could recognize as typically mediterranean.

I love how you try to beat this to ground. wow, This is hillarious. That is all social stuff stop contridicting your self. Those races do no exist. Period you said enough about it. You can show me all the pictures you want but it has been disproven and you still keep beating it to ground. EVEN WHEN YOUR ARTICLES TALK ABOUT HISPANICS AND NOT WHITE HISPANICS! geez you need to learn listen to other people. That is why you are wrong and already two other users changed it. Face it ok. Or do not bother contriubing here again.(DoubleNine 16:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

Everywhere you go in the world people have different appearances, even within countries. People who live near each other tend to look more similar to each other than those who live further away. So people from the mediterranean will look more similar to each other than say people from east asia, or people from scandinavia. that doesn't mean that they are different races no. It is just based on geographic distribution of genes. I stand by the argument many mediterranean peoples look similar.Muntuwandi 16:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats great, but thats your POV and without sources and especially since the whole sub race theory has been disproven, we cannot add it. We do not allow Original Research or your obersvations on wikipedia. Especially since you are going off subject completely and still fail to see that NONE of your articles state White Hispanic they just say Hispanic which means two completely different things.(DoubleNine 17:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC))

Where did all of this bickering come from? Gosh, I hate what the ignorant US Media has done to race relations! HISPANIC is A CAUCASIAN SUB GROUP from Europe just like ANGLO and NORDIC is too. When did Hispanic all of a sudden become a non-white label? And then on top of that other non-white groups like Middle Easterners want to claim Southern Europeans as either non-white or "Mediterranean". Southern Europeans look Mediterranean because of the climate and geographical location. They are like any other European.

No spaniards are considered caucasoid, not hispanics because hispanic is not a race. Even Middle easterners are caucasian. Even people from India are also considered caucasoid. . Back to the issue of media stereotypes.

"These shows stereotype the hell out of people," said Juan A. Figueroa, president and general counsel of the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund. "If you looked at the soap operas without knowing better, you would think they came from Scandinavia or somewhere like that with all the blond, blue-eyed people you see. Meanwhile, the few people of color are relegated to the subclasses."[3]

"The megastars of Latin America who are about to “cross over,” heartthrobs such as Diego Luna and Gael Garcia Bernal of “Y Tu Mama Tambien” and Eduardo Verastegui of “Chasing Papi,” look like Anglo actors that Aaron Spelling dug up for his next teen show, “90201: The Next Generation.” " [4] Muntuwandi 02:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! To user above! Its users like Muntuwandi who sterotype other people and do this( incorrectly I might add). He fails to listen to other people. That is what I am trying to show him, but he is being stubborn about it. As for what you said they still dont say White Hispanics they say Hispanics. (DoubleNine 02:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC))

you and I both agree

• that there people who are blonde in spain
• we also agree that there are a lot more blonde people in Scandinavia than are in spain.
• We agree that more people in spain have dark hair and brown eyes than in scandinavia
• We also agree that generally people from spain are slightly darker than people from scandinavia.
• We also agree that both scandinavians and spanish people are both considered white.
• In Europe there is considerable mixing so there are some Nordic people also found in spain.

What we disagree is that you seem to believe that there is nothing wrong with the Media portrayal of hispanics on Latin American Tv. you believe that if they portray a lot of blonde blue eyed characters, there is nothing odd. whereas I believe that the Media is deliberately selecting people who are stereotypically Nordic looking, because at the moment, that is what culture believes is the standard of beauty. I believe that most people, rightly or wrongly, do not associate Nordic looking people as being from spain or the mediterranean, yet some obviously are since they have been selected for the media. To complicate matters, many who identify themselves as white in Latin America actually have some Native American or African Ancestry, so portraying Nordic looking people is not an accurate representation of white latin american hispanics.Muntuwandi 02:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with everything you said except this, "most people, rightly or wrongly, do not associate Nordic looking people as being from spain or the mediterranean" that is just plain wrong. Most people associate Blondes with white people in general since almost all white populations have a large blonde population, Spain is no different. ""considerable"" mixing does not state enough the mixing as most Spaniards are a mix of Mediterranean and Nordic stocks.[5](DoubleNine 03:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC))

Guys you are both right. But you see the reason why all of this is happening is because people especially in the United States are deranged about race. They believe that white only equals Nordic. They cannot fathom that olive skin and dark hair is also white or caucasian. They even have no idea that Caucasians actually originated in Eastern Europe and the Middle East. So whenever they see a hispanic person from Latin America, regardless that he is dark (but not mestizo) they automatically assume that he is non-white. It's strange. Anglo-Americans seem to think of it a privelage to be white so they try to eliminate as many people as they can into the group. The first to go are people of olive skin from Southern Europe and Latin America. In Latin America, white creole leftovers from Spain rule the media and the government. To the mestizo majority they are white, but to the average joe blow Anglo-American they are not. Get my point?

______

DoubleNine has allowed his/her emotion to cloud their judgement. The sources provided by Muntuwandi clearly guage hair color variation using legitimate scientific methods of observation. Unless a more convincing scholarly source is presented, it is safe to say that populations present on the Iberian Peninsula and throughout the Mediterranean region have on average darker hair color than those in northern Europe.

The reason for this, whether it be phenotypical differences amongst "Caucasiod" subgroups (e.g. Nordics, Alpines, Mediterranean) or centuries of admixture with Arab/Berber Moors (surprised no one has mentioned the contributions of the Moors to the culture AND genetic makeup of the Iberian Penninsula), is irrelevent...

The point Muntuwandi is making is that the overwhelmingly blonde actors/actresses featured on Latin American television programming DO NOT accurately represent the populations of either Latin America OR of Mediterranean Hispanics. They would be more representative of Northern European or Scandinavian populations... And in fact, many of them-- like Ludwika Paleta (who is from Poland)-- actually come from non-Mediterranean, non-Hispanic European countries.

Muntuwandi is not saying that actual "racial" differences exist on a biological level between the populations of Spain and Scandinavia. "Race," as we all know by now, is nearly universally agreed to be a biologically inaccurate classification for humans. It is, however, STILL a social construct, and a component of that social construct is the persistence of stereotypes that describe Mediterraneans as "dark" and Scandinavians as "light."

Regardless of the reason, these stereotypes continue to exist AND scientific observation (such as the sources provided by Muntuwandi) tend to support the popular belief that populations along the Mediterranean have (on average) darker hair and skin.

This all boils down to the final point-- "Hispanic" culture, as it is portrayed on Latin American television, maintains blonde-haired, blue-eyed Scandinavian-styled "whiteness" as the ideal of beauty. Not only do they reject the predominant African and Indian mestizo/mulato heritage of Latin America, but they ALSO reject the perceived "darkness" stereotypically associated with Mediterranean populations as well.

Chuquibambino 02:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

well, I am from this small corner on the NW of Iberia, which a lighter colour hair distribution according to the map. And yes, there are differences even inside our country. But the whole map seems ridiculous. I think that,for example, we are darker than people from SW of Britain, though in the map we are under the same colour. Of course, if you pick individual by individual, you cannot be sure, but it is easy to tell a large group apart from the other. But this is not the point. In my opinion, you are mixing white Hispanics with Spaniards, and it is absolutely not the same. It is very difficult to track pure Spanish blood in the Latinos you have in the US. The large majority have a degree of Indian blood,even if they do not know. And Bernicio del Toro a pure white?. Don´t make me laugh!--Xareu bs 08:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

we are all going to have different personal experiences. but i dont think the studies cited here are based on personal experience. it seems, from the sources provided, that these studies of hair color are based on objective methods of scientific observation. scientists observed and analyzed the hair color of given population samples and comprised a chart representing the mean/average hair color distribution throughout the world.

are there Spaniards with blonde hair? plenty! are there Swedes with brown hair? of course. but scientific observation has shown us that on average, that a greater percentage of the Spanish population (and the mediterranean region in general) has dark hair as compared to the population of Sweden/Northern Europe, the majority of which has lighter hair.

as far as the mixture of ancestry of most Latin-Americans-- you're absolutely right; it would be difficult to seperate the generations of mixture of Spanish, Indigenous and African blood of most "mestizo" Latinos. but it is NOT necessarily that difficult to distinguish "pure-blooded" Spanish families. although they may be few in numbers, there are Spanish Cubans whose families immigrated to Cuba from Spain as late as the 1890's (remember, Cuba was a prized Spanish posession). there are also "Hispano" or Spanish-American families in New Mexico that can trace back their direct ancestry from Spain to Mexico.

in regards to Benicio del Toro, i don't personally think he looks "white." at the very least he is distinguishable from Anglo and Germanic Americans. but is that necessarily a result of any Indian or African ancestry in his Puerto Rican heritage? i don't know. it could well be that he is "pure" Spanish, but that the "purity" of his Spanish blood is itself questionable. centuries of cohabitation with Moors and Sephards could have easily introduced some "dark" genes into his bloodline. Chuquibambino 16:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Images of White Hispanics

I think Rita Hayworth and Rachel Welch who are half "white" and half Hispanic ought to be replaced by White Hispanics with both Hispanic parents. The current may mislead people into thinking White Hispanics (Hispanics of White "race) are White-Hispanics (half "white", half Hispanic. --FateClub 03:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The point is that White and Hispanic are the same thing unless you are talking about Non-Hispanic whites so, theres not much reason to get rid of them. (DoubleNine 17:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

What exactly are you talking about, DoubleNine? You are applying different standards to different arguments. One minute "White and Hispanic are the same thing," yet in the above debate on Hair Color u stated the folowing: "Hispanics and White Hispanics are two different things entirely..." Which one is it?? BE CONSISTENT! Chuquibambino 02:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The reason would be that a White Hispanic can be a full-blooded Hispanic, without the

need to have "white" ancestry. --FateClub 19:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Use full blooded Hispanics to define the article or many people will willingly disregard Welch and Hayworth out of ignorance. Many will think it is because of the Irish or the other that they're white and not because of the Hispanic. Use people like Carlos Ponce, Luis Miguel, Alexis Bledel, Gabriel Batistuta, Michelle Vieth, Diego Luna. There are plenty of full blooded white Hispanics out there from the hispanic entertainment world.

I understand what people are saying...but the term Hispanic, doesn't refer to someone of being full-blooded Hispanic.....Since they could be somone of completly German,Irish or any Non-Iberian ancestry born & raised in Latin-America....but still can refer to themselves as culturally Hispanic...... in the US most are american raised citezens......

The term in the US, means someone of any racial background, of any country and of any religion who has at least one ancestor from the people of Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America, whether or not the person has Spanish ancestry.see (Hispanics in the United States)

And i beleive most people wont get confused(after reading this!), and know that a 'Hispanic' is a person whose identifies themselves as one....

Thats the best explanation i can find.

Obviously there were people who were told not to use this term, who were in the public eye..such as Rita Hayworth-Raquel Welch...some examples may trace their ancestors on one side.......but nevertheless still have continued to practice and view their culture and identity as somewhat dominant in their lives.

Spain21 21 May 2007 (UTC))

There is no such thing as ""Full-blooded Hispanic"". Thats what we are trying to tell you. Hispanic is a cultural thing and by no means racial. Its just a term thought up by the US in order to clasify people coming in from Latin America. There for those people are just as Hispanic as anyone else that is.(DoubleNine 18:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

I am aware of that. That is why I used double quotes all over the place, and that is why I mentioned that we need pictures of notable people of both Hispanic parents. Not one Hispanic parent and a non-Hispanic parent, so we do not mislead the readers into thinking that "White Hispanic" (white of Hispanic origin) is synonymous with "half white-half Hispanic. Both Hayworth and Welch have a parent of non-Hispanic origin. --FateClub 20:07, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I see, but I do not think we will be misleading anyone. (DoubleNine 21:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Care to elaborate? --FateClub 21:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure, basically white is white. Hispanic is just a terrible label that the US puts on people from Latin America as if they were all the same culture group to being with. We all know Latin America is actually very diverse and there is not one single culture. I see where you are going I actually completely agree with you. We should add to article that this does not mean "half white" and "Half Hispanic". (DoubleNine 03:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

Im not sure whether we need to explain that in the article.....however, i think it just needs to have more photos like it has of other people like Andy garcia...(since i think 'Welch and Hayworth shouldn't be excluded either)......its just finding good 'free to use' pics...it isnt easy

anybody know of great pics around the web ..that have no copyright issues...its difficult i find....spain21 22 May 2007 (UTC))

That sounds like a good idea. We should show the diversity of White Hipanics so I think we should keep those two. Like you said White Hispanics can be Irish etc. (DoubleNine 17:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

I just think that the erroneous impression Americans have of Hispanics will undermine the efforts of representing white hispanics. Most Americans will simply assume that the only reason the actors represented are white is because of the other in their heritage, such as Irish, etc. silly racist stuff - deleted

there was never anything racist posted on here. I think that people feel uncomfortable when discussing white hispanics and how the representation of WHs is very small in the US. So whenever anyone brings this up its somehow racist, when in fact it shows major diversity in the Hispanic community. Again, to let everyone know there was never anything racists on this page. The only thing racist was the elimination of a good discussion because people are close minded and will not admit that Hispanics and Latinos in America are more diverse than credited for.

49% of hispanics are white european

This article needs to expanded

in fact all latin american ethnicities like castizos mestizos mulattoes indians etc need to expanded. people like to paint a giant brush and say its all the same hispanic/latino, but it isnt so. Manic Hispanic 17:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I think a section should be added on what the misrepresentation of "the spanish speaking world" in US media has caused on the image of Spaniards and other white hispanics.

Everyone is talking about how Latin-American media is portraying Latin-Americans as all blonde. That is a lie. Diego luna and Geal Bernal isn't even blonde. They look like Southern Spaniards.

American media, however. Has tried to "de-white" and "de-europeanize" the image of Spaniards. It is a fact that a blonde spaniard stands little chance of having a successfull career in the US. Take for example Antonio Banderas. He is the darkest form of what a spaniard can be and still if you look at his spanish langauge movies from when he was young, he had very pale skin. Fake tanners and roles as mexicans have made him successful in the US. I was watching e entertainment and they had a snip about penelope crus calling her a hot "Latina". She European and not latin American. They would never call an italian or french woman Latina. If you watch a movie from Spain or if you go to spain you will see that in fact a lot of people are blonde and a lot of actors but they don't get work in the US because they look too white. Only brunettes can cross-over because then the cleverly sculpted "non-white" image of the Spanish world can be preseved. Paz Vega played a mexican maid in Spanglish, a movie where it is clearly stated that she is not a white-mexican, when she is just as white as Julia Roberts or Sandra Bullock and yet again being a brunette they could again confuse people.

The fact is that Spaniard are generally "whiter" than italians and greeks and many french and yet they are called "latin" and "hispanic". It is rediculous and I wonder why this has happened.

Another think. i was watching a commercial about plascon paint. a man draws on a restaurants wall. The waiter wipes it off and the manager asks him if it was "messiour" Picasso, when it should have been "Senior" Picasso since picasso was a Spaniard and not frech. They are even taking Spanish cultural icons away from them.

The fact that there are people arguing here about the blondeness of Spain shows how confused people are. If you ask the average american if Penelope Cruz was white, they would say no, but ask then is Julia Roberts? and they'd say yes.

I think this weirdly crafted misconcertion must be added. I hope someone will.

I agree with the above poster. Although his or her English is a little bad, I do understand what he or she is saying. Actor, Jordi Molla, a recent Spanish import, has commented on Spanish TV that it took him a while to get work in Hollywood because he didnt have the "latin" look that Hollywood wanted. Even then he couldnt get work as a Spaniard, he commented on how Hollywood will not hire actual Mexican or Central American people to play Latino roles. He said they wanted Southern Europeans or atleast Crilolo actors to play Mexican roles.

I agree with some of what has been said...and dont know if this person has been to spain of is from spain..but i know that 8% of the spanish population has "natural" blonde hair.....not dyed...saw it on a spanish television program the other day Tve1 it was,....by a doctor.....and im not sure weather they are the whitest after the french..i doubt that..but anyhow ...what distiguishes people is the features of people more than anything else..regardless of skin tone..... The only reason why spanish people have been portrayed as latin, is because they are latin..and even though the portuguese, Italians and french are latin aslo..but dont get referred as so..is purly just because of the large spanish speaking population, but most people know italians etc are latins also....'latino' and 'latin' are used differently in america and europe....europeans i think know the difference alittle better......its similar as calling all people of european origin 'ango',even though they are not of english origin......its a' cultural'-link, thing only..

dont forget to sign your comments with ~~~~Muntuwandi 17:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Does that 8% only include light blonde hair, because in Latin America, even dark ash blonde or light brown hair is considered "rubio" or blonde. I have been to Spain and have seen a lot of what would be considered "rubios" in Latin America in Spain. It seemed to be more than just 8%. Just a thought. I know here in the USA, we dont consider people with light colored brown hair to be blonde and all.

I know what you mean and think that in europe we tend to think that rubio (blonde) is only applied to light hair, nearest colour to blonde as possible really...spain is the same...but ill go with the statistics..since thats what they said on the tv....and the people you saw that were blonde may just have dyed it possibly.... since i do know a few that have.. Another thing that annoys me is the wat latino has been used as an engish word....when i just mean "Latin".....which refers to anyone who speaks a romance language....dont know whay the USA has adopted the spanish version....when it means the same thing...and so now some people like to think that it only refers to latin americans.... spain21 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Exuse me but where did you get that Spaniards are more "whiter" than Greeks and Italians? Also no offense but the way I see it sometimes and I'm of greek descent , is that as far as white culture goes if the are some anglos who consider themselves superior to Southern Europeans I just think of them as barbarians, and I would ask them if thats the case , than take everything we've given to europe, our language, politics, arts, science, pretty much everything and see how Europes history would be pretty dull than, I know there Spaniards who have light features, I also know there are Greeks and Italians with light features and vice versa, I know a couple of Germans with dark features, listen if your a girl you go for a guy with dark features and if your a guy you go for a girl with light features, they did a experiement, The way I look at hispanics is either there mixed, white, black, or pure native american, but don't go and knock that spaniards are generally more whiter than greeks or italians. There are a lot of steroetypes out there on how someone should looked based on their ethinicity, I mean not every irish person has freckles and red hair, or every german looks like captain america, In this country people think that caucasions are a homogenous group which is not the case at all, so I always get sick and tired of hearing people say well whites are dull and boring , there generic, it's pretty lame

• There is no real measure of whiteness in Europe but it is true that of all the Mediteranian countries Spaniards and French are generally "fairer". Greeks and Southern Italians can in many cases be so dark that it is ludicris calling them that while the Spaniards who look like that are gypsies and even live in "gypsy quarters". In fact, in the early years of America, The british only considered themselves, the French and the Spanish as white because they share coasts and have traded and intermixed for centuries. In fact, DNA test have shown that the Celts are actually Spaniards that colonized the Isles. Dispite this, today, American media has grouped the Spanish as Latino. And used the tern "Latino" as a racial group. There is nothing wrong with non-white Latin Americans it is just that the great classic culture of Spain has been jeopardized and almost de-europeanized in the eyes of the world.

I dont think theyve de-europeansized..it ..look whos got the main Latin roles ..most are from Latin europeans...cant be all bad.....i just think they should have more movies set in Spain rather then mexico...now that would be something...

and over the 10,000 years the spanish populatrion has changed ..from greek to romans to many other pre historic ones.....and the northern ones like british are very different..we had a DNA progreme of this recently on tv..they are made from celts, only in ireland and scotland now..angles saxons majoity , Norweigen people in the far north...from northern france, Normans....so not much in common..

Hey Dgies you blocked me for some reason, I have not tried to edit the page only throw in my opinion so i think you're an idiot , Have you been to Greece or Southern Italy, cause I have and there is very little, very little of Greek and Southern Italians being "dark". I don't turn for instance turn brown when I tan but red like a lobster, I find it to be ludicrous that in order to prove your point of Spaniards being fairer you have to use Greeks and Southern Italians as scapegoats.

Mel Martinez

What is the basis of calling him a white Hispanic? He doesnt look white and he has never made it clear if his ancestors are European. I think he should be replaced by someone like Christina Aguilera or Cameron Diaz (although her american mother has some native blood). But I think you cant just call some1 white because they are a politicion.

Oh my god..Are you serious....Ofcourse he does....27 June 2007 (UTC)

Mel Martinez looks very white. What are you jabbering on about? I am sorry he doesn't look WASPY or pasty pale like the Anglo population. Sheez. Why does white only mean Anglo looking to you people?

• listen I am not ignorant but I do know that some Europeans are darker complected but I am talking about Mel's features. Sorry but not even Southern Spaniards or Italians have such features. He looks like he has African ancestors.

Im sorry but f he did..they are VERY distant to him....and i know that you think its his nose but it always like that sometimes when people smile....and Javier Bardem for example if pure spanish...and has a slightly wider nose...

Javier Bardem is from the Canary Islands. Even if they speak spanish, they are a mixture of Spanish and the native inhabitants. Even though they probably were white too lookinh at paintings. Mel Martinez is a bad example. He will only confuse people. We don't know his background. Not even his bio mentions his ancestors. Look at this person saying that "white hispanic" is an oxymoron. It's better to use clear examples with proof of their background.

I understand what you are saying..but if this isnt a clear expample of a white person of hispanic background is...then what are people supposed to think...that all white hispanics look the same!...no. they dont...caracteristics vary slightly...put it this way...a european person would define him as one.

I think it would be the opposite and would confuse people into thinking white hispanos were only people that were sterotypical caucasion if you like....people should know that

His mother (Javier) is from seviila and i think is fathers side is from madrid......and the canary islanders are not 50% native..thats silly..it was collonised by the castillians...by the thousand...ive met many canarians whilst being in the south of spain.. Many people dont think Eva Mendes is White, but she is of clearly spanish or Portuguese ancestry. 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• You people are not representing real white hispanics. The fact is that it is very unlikely that Eva Mendez is really a white hispanic. I go to Spain and Portugal regularly, north and south and there are no people that look like her or Mel Martinez. They are obviously mixed race although Eva does have very caucasian features. Her skin tone is much too dark. Even in the most southern parts of spain people are no darker than a typical french person. If they are then they are in the gypsy quaters. I think that you are confusing people because you are calling non-white hispanics white when they are not. What next? Are you gonna call Jenifer Lopez white next? don't be rediculous. Stick to real white hispanics that have at least in their bios their ancestry. I know Shakira is not an American but in the "hite Latin American" article she and giselle are perfect examples because their ancestry is known and is stated in their bios. This is an encyclopedia. You can't call every1 who's recent ancestors moved from Cuba white because there are black cubans. Stick to those that have their ancestry stated at some source clearly.

Javier is a rare case. And I wouldnt be surprised if he hadnt broken his nose at some point. And he is another example of the way only Brunette Spaniards can get work in the US.

True the brunettes do get most of the work in the U.S,,but i do beleive that Eva and others always have tanned skin either fake or by the sun......she is much lighter in other films.....as for mel martinez ..i cant understand how you think he isnt white since you go to spain regularly....mmm

• Mel Martinez does NOT look like a Spaniard at all.

Fake

"White Hispanic" is an oxymoron. 68.110.8.21 15:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to call Nadine Velazquez a white hispanic

This is rediculous. Why did you use her? this is why people come here saying its an oxymoron. She's from Puerto Rico which is a very multicultural country and her bio does not state that her ancestors are from Europe and you can say what you want but she does not look like a spaniard. Thats crazy! You people are going too far!

Features actually distinguish a nationality more than anything else....ive met americans who had trouble identifying swedish people from spanish ,eg:face,height,clothes etc....when living in spain myself...and me being spanish-european can idenitfy nationality on average very well........ i think that because the US is soo mixed euro-nationaltiy wise..they cant always identiy nationality distinctly..

Here is an example of a spanish presenter..not everybody looks like her..but never the less there are alot of girls like her......

• Sonia ferrer Spanish presenter from barcelona
  
• sonia cap
• sonia caps
• sania caps

• Ines Sastre,spanish Castillian model

• There are not many Spaniards who look like this Sonia and she's probably heavily fake tanned on that pic and in fact, you can't say weather she is gypsy or not. This is an encyclopedia and it is against the principle of this site to use unsources facts. You cannot say Nadine is white when you have no proof and she certainly does not look like a Spaniard at all. She looks like a metziza. She is without a doubt not 100% white. She must be removed. You seem to not realise that Spaniards are just as white as any other Europeans. The few dark ones are rare and in many cases gypsies so dont be confused.

Some real Spanish women:

• [6]
• [7]
• [8]
• [9]

These are just a few of the Spanish "celebs" so why are there no white hispanics who look like these people on your list? Please you are basically calling all hispanics white when that is not true. Only ones who are white should be called white. Only those of European extraction.

It was just a coincidence that the examples I used were mostly blondes but your beauty queen links all link to obviously white women except miss Valencia and the fact is that this is 2007 and many Latin Americans and Africans and even arabs have moved to spain in the last 50 years so modern examples can be inacurate. I'm not saying that miss Valencia isnt 100% spanish though. Shes just very tanned. The thing is that Nadine does not look like these women. She has slanted eyes and clearly has non-caucasian elements within her. And about gypsies. They are a different ethnic group because they are decended from Indians and soe believe Egyptians mixed with the European populations. They are found all over Europe. Sonia is a very starnge looking person. Not even in the most southern Spanish towns have I ever seen some1 who looks like her. weird. And how do you know she isn't a gypsy or part gypsy?

All I am trying to do it have this article have some credibility. You cannot call any metziza hispanic white based on nothing.

well she is not considered anything else in spain,I only read her biography on the web and have seen her in interviews and she doesnt say anything about her being a Gitana....if she was in spain they'd mention it...they always do as for havig proof of peoples background then yeah im all for that..

but in spain there has only been lots of immigration only during the last 6-7 years ..from latin america, africa etc....like 4-5 times the amount they had 7 years before...and not many people born to immigrants are represented on spanish tv...certanly not the main presenters.....not like england where its immigrants are represented on tv.. but i surrender now..haha.

by the way look at the lopez sisters. her sister is definatly european..not similar though are they.. lynda lopez

see Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe Muntuwandi 12:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Jenifer Lopez and her sister are multi racial. It does not matter if her sister looks white.

This is to educate Americans only..not europeans!!..lets face it..

White Hispanics...Mentality...

People in this talk page are getting absolutely ridiculous. People have to understand that Hispanics are just as White as any other White group...Since when does a dark tan or brunette hair exclude a person from being White. This mentality is very White American (And Ironically, technically many White Americans are Middle Eastern, Latino, etc). Another thing...having Indian ancestry (Mestizo, Castizo, etc) doesn't exclude a person from being White. Even in ridiculous "White American" mentality, people with part Indian blood are White! Yet they exclude Hispanics that may be whiter than them from the White Category! And people with a problem...If it makes you mad that Mestizo's can be a part of "Whitedom"...think of your Spanish or other European Ancestors...Weren't they excited to come to the Americas and make it their home, and get rich quick, if you will? Take Everything that comes with it! Cali567 15:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Indians and their descendents are not racially European/Arab/North African, okay? They may be of light complexion, but colour isn't the single defining element of race. Come and delete my statement again, dictator. 68.110.8.21 18:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• This is an encyclopedia article and only people who's racial background is known to be 100% white should be used as examples of white hispanics.

I do agree with having proof of peoples backfgound but do we really need it all the time..i dont know half of the ancestry of most americans..but i know Al pacino is of european origin..... Also I dont agree with the Mestizo's being classified as white either,....that is 50% 50% and hardly predoninatly european......even though im the one that put up the miss spain and sonia ferrer captions earlier,i have a good idea....not everybody in spain that has dark eyes hair is gypsy...

• Firstly, why do you feel you need to keep posting pics of the darkest possible Spaniards you can find. I have told you that in 2007 gitanos and gitanas have been accepted into the mainstream population and even if some of them arent gypsies, what are you trying to prove? Those women are totally faked out. anyone can see that Monica Cruz has a bad fake tan. When brunettes get fake tan's they look non-white. I don't understand why you keep posting these few women?

Look at polish-german actress and singer Natalia Avelon.

• [10]

Italian actress Monica Belucci:

• [11]

Greek actress Irene Papas

• [12]
• [13]

These types of women are found throughout europe. And Yes, if someone from say Puerto Rico looks like them, I will not accept that they are white unless proof is given. That is all. You do not need to proove that some Europeans look like people usually considered non-white. If some1 looks dark I will accept they are white if the neccesary proof is given. I am not arguing with you. I don't understand what you aretrying to proove. The fact is that you cannot call some1 who looks dark white unless you give the proof.

Okay true... I think European countries treat race much less formally, than the USA..since we are not decended from anyone very far ..and most americans are usually distant in their geneology ,so thats why they feel they need proof.....i just thought id be good to have women that were not represented in the women photos thats all....and you say 'these few women'?.....ill be honest and say they have make up and a tan..but never the less...they arent just a few..though..Spain21 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Let us not turn the discussion page into a newsstand for women's magazines, or a celebrity fansite.Muntuwandi 13:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Whiteness is a social construct

All these squabbles of whether so an so is white enough just illustrates that whiteness too is a social construct. Someone who is white in one country is not white enough in another. Muntuwandi 16:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

In "Hispanic Latin American" countries, Whiteness IS a social construct. I agree with you, because of that person's statement above you. That person erased my previous statement. In the European Union and USA, race is not just colour, but anthropological. We have no castizos or mestizos in the USA or EU. We don't think that way. So for us, race is not a social construct, based in advancement or oppression. I am "White" in complexion, but that matters less than the fact that I can only count Caucasian ancestors for certain. If I go back far enough to Egyptian times, maybe there are Negroes in my family tree. That's inconsequential to being "White". What is different, is the racial makeup of "Hispanic Latin America", where everybody but recent immigrants is verifiably whole or partly Indian. That excludes them from being "White", or Caucasian rather to the point. Just because one has some Caucasian ancestors, does not make them "White". Take Tiger Woods or Barack Obama, for instance. Don't try to be who you aren't. Just be happy mixed and leave it at that. 68.110.8.21 18:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with you to an extent. Firstly, all Europeans who are not Gypsies or have non-european recent ancestors are white no matter what they look like. I know many Germans who are very dark and dark people are found throughout europe. I think it is ok for someone who has some "other" blood but looks white to call themselves white because that is what they relate to but for the purposes of this article it is best to use examples that are 100% European. You cannot say some1 is white and then in their bio it does not mention anything about their ancestors and simply sayd "puerto rican". That is not enough. In the US race is a social construct. I don't know where you get your facts from but many "White" Americans have black and Ameridian blood. It is idiotic for an American to say that white latin americans are not white when they are in many cases actually "purer" that american whites. The fact is that in the US, Latin America, Australia and Africa whiteness is basically down to how you look and how your parents look. That is a fact. But for an article like this, only examples of people who's ancestors are known are to be used.

• • People with verifiably non-Caucasian ancestors can still acknowledge their Caucasian heritage--that's not in dispute at all, but they are not classified as racially Caucasian, just a mix of races. The same goes for their social construct, which is identical to their anthropological heritage in Europe and the USA. If they are racially mixed, then so is their culture and social status. Race in Europe and the USA is not about colour/complexion, but about genetic heritage. This is noticeably different in "Hispanic/Latin Americana", where race is determined solely by appearances and assumptions based on that. The lightest skinned people in that world are called White, as if it were the same as Caucasian. I and other Americans would never look at it that way. Just because some people of mixed race in America call themselves "White", doesn't mean this is a majority opinion. In fact, it is just a "cover-up" of their racial diversity to try and fit in. I'm sorry, but racially mixed people just aren't truly Caucasian or any other race. They are in their own category, the misfits of the world. 68.110.8.21 22:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Muntuwandi 22:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you trying to start a fight by insinuation? 68.110.8.21 23:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• I really think you should go read the "white American" article. The fact is that most so-called white Americans have black and/or Native American blood too. The North American and Latin American view of what is white is the same. In North American people who looked white but had some "other" ancestors "passed" as white. The same happened in Latin American and Australia. White Americans are no more "pure" than white Latin_Americans. If you think that then you are fooling yourself. A white hispanic is just as white as a white Anglo.

• you cannot group America nd Europe as 1. And in fact in Europe, those who look white are accepted as white even if they have non-white ancestors. Take Jade Goody, a girl who got into trouble for being racist on Big Brother UK toward an Indian girl. Jade Goddy's father is half black but everyone accepts her as white coz that's what she looks like. People are all people and at the end of the day race is down to physical appearance all around the world.

• • The White American article is edited by liberals who try to push their multicultural agenda. That is not "FACT", but exaggeration. But it is true that the amount of African blood is higher than Indian, when it comes to those who try to pass as White. When mixed-race people try to pass as White, we all know what they are doing. They can't hide it really well. An example would be Mariah Carey, who is of an immigrant family. Not everybody in America is a "White Anglo"--more and more fake Whites from "Hispanic/Latin" American countries are coming to lie and pretend they fit in the same as White "Anglos". White Germans and Italians in America are not "Anglo" either. America is not all about Anglo people--that would be Canada. You see? America is a lot different than the countries you keep comparing America to. 68.110.8.21 00:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please look at this link: [14]

1 third of white americans, not those like Mariah Carey with 1 black parent but those who think they are 100% white, have between 2 and 20% African admixture. That means 74million white americans have between 2 and 20% black in them. That is a huge amount. If you consider white Latin Americans "fake" whites, then white Americans must not be considered white at all. Face the facts. Stop believing the lie that white americans are pure coz its just not true!

I will research and find out about the percentage of Ameridian admixture in white Americans and let you know coz if so many white Americans have black blood then finding the amount of Ameridian blood will show you that almost no American white is 100% white, unless your family immigrated there recently.

• I have searched on the net but for some reason I can't find any study on the Ameridian admixture in so-called "white" Americans. I find this strange. If you find one then please post a link. I assume that more so-called "white" americans have ameridian admixture than is generally thought. It seems like American scientists keep doing these test on white Latin Americans but not on white Americans. This is very odd.

• • How come you can't even agree with yourself? You can't bring others down to your level, no matter how hard you try to imagine a brown world. Keep "La Raza Cósmica" to yourself. 68.110.8.21 02:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Haha, you think I am Latin American? I am from Sweden. I find it rediculous that you, who I presume is American, is so ignorant. Accept that we do live in a multicultural world and you my friend must accept that you probably are multiethnic. Accept it and love all people. Race is an illusion. All people came from Africa anyway. If you call yourself white then you cannot argue that white Latin Americans are white because they are more white than you.

• • Swedes are know-it-alls? I thought they were just naive. 68.110.8.21 04:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• What kind of human being are you. You are so hateful toward all people. I really think you have self-esteem problems that is why you try to insult all other people. Your words and your little links mean nothing to me or anyone else for that matter because you are inconsequencial. You post little links about a crazy preacher when everything you stand for is against christianity. You have a bitter haert and you need to study christianity properly if you are going to use it to promote your ideas. As a matter of fact, god does not hate Swedes and god does not hate homosexuals either. You use the inaccurate english translations of the bible to support these claims. Go study hebrew or Aramaic and you will see that homosexuals are never condemned in the bible. And in any case, you are a very sad person and I hope you really look at yourself because this hateful fake christianity that you are following will land you in the hell you fear so much!

• • Take your enlightened despotism back to Europe. You presume to speak down to me and Americans in general, by professing to know our situation better than us. How arrogant. Stop interfering. 68.110.8.21 15:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• What situation are you refering to? It's sad how you create imaginary situations to make yourself feel usefull. How quaint!

• • Cut the melodramatic posturing. BTW, you have proven the stereotype of naive Swedes. 68.110.8.21 17:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Jennifer Lopez

Do you consider jennifer Lopez to be a White Hispanic?..Since the definition of the White American is: The U.S. Census currently defines "white people" as "people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. Cause i think they are.... The only things i can find about this on the net is:

Both parents came to the United States in their childhoods, and eventually met while living in New York City. While Jennifer is of Puerto Rican descent, her mother's parents were Europeans who settled in Puerto Rico and her paternal grandmother's parents were Europeans who settled on the island. Cant find a photo of her father..can anyone else find one of her dad?.......non of p didy like someone did....eer no her fathers White actually.....

• Her mom
• 3 Lopez Sisters

• Sorry but Jennifer Lopez is not white. Her mother's ancestors are definately not only Europeans. You can even see by Jennifer's large cheekbones that she has asian, Ameridian or African ancestors. And her mother does not look white at all. She's definately mixed race. Her father I think might be white tho, judging by a picture I saw of him once.

'71.235.92.55, your post are deleted because they are nothing more than racist and xenophobic white supremacist giberish! The Ogre 20:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Some can be, but this article clearly goes beyond the American definition (socially) of white. Your idea of white is: "I speak Spanish. Spaniards are from Spain (ignoring the Moorish blood), so I must be white." Historically Spain was never thought of as white and they never did things from a 'white' perspective. whiteness is a British/American/German thing. The only reason you are begging for whiteness is because you want an easier life. I don't see you begging to be black! If we were to take this revisionist history, then there were never slaves in Latin AMerica, no natives and 'pure' whites. If they (whites) thought of you as one of them, they would have made you good buddies like the Anglo nations (Canada, New Zealand, AUstralia, UK and even SOuth Africa), but they did not. Be happy with yourselves and you may be better off. I knew my info of not adding to your BS fantasies was the reason for my posts being deleted. Here is a test for you white hispanics. Go see if you can join the Skin heads of the KKK. If they let you in, you are white. If you are white, then there is no need to shout it out or shove it down peoples throats.

Are you serious?

You people are hoping, begging and wishing for previlages, respect a title that you did not earn, go by on your own and are not deserving of. You did not build the US, you had the Spanish Empire and it failed, not you come here by crossing the border and by boat. Stop fooling yourselves. BEFORE the first Spaniard came to the Americas, they already had black blood and Asian blood in them! This is why they are darker. This is why on the paintings from the Colombian period they had yellow hues, dark hair, curly hair and full lips. Yeah, Isabella was red, but Spaniards were never one type of European to begin with. On top of that, as the Moors got defeated (not actually kicked out of Spain altogether), more Europeans came into the mix and reintroduced whiteness. NOW, the mulattoized peoples still remained as it is today, especially in Portugal, France and Italy.

Once the Spaniards came over here, mixing was let loose, UNLIKE the rule in the USA! See, the US was operating on whiteness and a white 'purity' concept. You guys were operating on being greedy and grabbing land and not knowing what to do with it. You mixed with the natives and the Africans. It is more than clear. In fact, it is so clear that that is all you see. Only after the US established itself as THE word power (and broke down Spain's empire. How come they did not do it to France..?), THEN you people started trying to think of yourselves as white. That only increased as you immigrated to the US and it broke your hearts when you found out that you were not white and landed in the ghetto.

If you sad mixed people don't get it by now - America does not settle for mixes or those who cry about being white, you are or you are not. If you have noticed in US history and society in general, Spain and Portugal are hardly if ever mentioned in a context with Europe. You ask the average American where Portugal is they can't tell you. They may have heard of some people (usually black) calling themselves Portuguese, but have no idea where or what Portugal is. Spain less so, but white is not associated with Spain. Even Europe is hardly associated with Spain.

All of this BS about you guys being more pure than American whites is just that - BS. People know that you are hispanic. You don't - you can't fool anyone. Only very few of you look like a 'no questions asked' white person. I can understand your pain, since many Greeks and Italians are regarded (not exactly accepted) as white, even though clear non-European/African traits are visible. I guess you would ask "if they can be white, then why should I not be?" Good question, but you people are not doubt mixed and recently. Italians and Greeks may not have a direct black parent, but you can look at them and see that African beneath the surface. Some African is on the surface more than the white is!

Sadly (for those of you with white dreams that is), you are lumped together with the rest of your latino brothers. Just because things are not going well n ALL of those (so much land and resources) countries, you want to come to the US and get a free ride as whites? It does not work as easily for you as it may work for others. One, you ARE NOT coming from Europe, so there is no built-n perception of whiteness based on Europe alone. Two, you are mixed! You need to review the history of the US! Once you do (the 20th century alone will do), you will see that you need not apply as white. Only the absolute whitest (dying your hair blond or red does not fool anyone for your information) need apply. You just can't come to a country and get a free ride. You have ALL of Latin America, instead of making something out of that, you want to come here and try and be white. No, no.

I still cannot believe how many Puerto-Ricans, Dominicans, Chileans, Argentines and so on truly believe themselves to be white. I met a female who thinks she is white. I keep telling her it is only in her world because it is not in anyone else's. Spain IS in Europe, but despite popular thought, not all Europeans are white. You can do your best to lie about the Moors, lies about African slavery in Latin America and lie that there was even race-mixing going on, it does not change history and biology.

Also, I was already well aware of the hispanic trick of calling white people Anglos, meaning "your type of whites as opposed to my type" which whites don't care about. You are not seen as white, you are seen as hispanics. This is why you are (along with Italians and other black mixed Europeans)quick to (try) and be 'racist'(renegade mulatto is more like it) against blacks, thinking that it pleased whites and that it somehow makes you feel white in your mind. Being white does not mean being a racist. White is an American (USA) thing. Most Europeans never thought of themselves as being part of a white people. It is the US that put this forth. Even they are hypocrites for this. Being mixed can be rough, but be happy with who you are. It is what it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.92.55 (talk • contribs)

This guy is a Troll The Ogre 12:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Troll? BS. This whole artile is racist. This is a talk page, so there are no trolls. If anything we are all trolls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.92.55 (talk • contribs)

• Hellooooo! In the beginning of the US, the British only considered themselves, the French and the Spanish as white! Germans, Irish, Italian etc. were not considered white. There is no Moorish blood in the White Spanish population. Those with Moorish blood are called Gitano's or gypsies. Genetically the Spanish are no different from any other European nation. And you say that Potugal and Spain are hardly ever mentioned in a European context. I will inform you that the president of Europe (aka the EU) is Portuguese. You think meditaranians are mulatto? Haha you're funny. Why would they try to please Northern Europeans when the Romans made the British Isles civilized Haha And in Fact the Celts and Spanish are actually one ethnic group based on genetic racial background. If you call the Spanish non-white then no European group is white becuase they are actually the least mixed when you consider that Nordics have asian or mongeloid admixture and Germans have Jewish blood. Have you ever been to Spain before? Believe me no Spaniard would care if an American thought he was white or not because a Spaniard is 100 times more white than an American and actually is European in stead of wannabe pseudo European Americans. You obviously are confused by the darkened image US media portrays of Spaniards because only Spanish brunettes get work in Hollywood. Go watch an actual movie from Spain and see who they really are.

You guys are crazy. If you are 'white,' then you should not have to annouce it or even demand it. You must not be too white if you have to beg and make a big dea over being accepted as white. In Iberia, you cannot deny the mixing that went on with the Moors. It was the Moors who made it possible for the two countries to actually sail away from Europe for once and build empires. Also, notice how the Portuguese and Spaniards sailed around the west coast of Africa to the east and avoided the Muslim controlled Med. Sea.

Again, if you are white in your country, then deal with it. It is more than clear that you want to be white in the US, which may or may not change in the future. It is clear that many of the whitest hispanics (the ones who do not appear mixed or 'ethnic') get regarded, but not totally accepted as white. I knew this day would come as hispanics keep increasing in population. The whites want to divide them by race(!) in order to decrease their numbers. The only thing is, MOST hispanics consider and believe themselves to be white. I hate when no good people who have failed in life and empire have to resort to begging and making up lies even about themselves just to be down with white power. Sad. Fact: The Moors (no, they are not just or so-called Gypsies) did invade, conquer and control Iberia. You ARE mixed with African and Asian blood. It shows in the people. Either you can spend the rest of your live hating yourselves, or you can respect the African and therfre respect yourselves. You are the LAST people on earth (after the arabs) who can deny African blood. You cannot no matter what lies you tell. Portugal imported African slaves and mixed with them. Portugese people do not even look European. Even the Portugese colonials in Asia look like a black/white mix. Alot of you guys propbaly have little to no European in you.

You are victims of history. You are also non-loyal, spineless cowards. When the Moors ruled you, you were happy to be Muslim and Moorish. You probably even hated Europe. Now that the white man went out and took over the world (his end is coming to an end), you now want to be white and wish that you could rip the blackness out of you. It is what it is. You had to deal with the Moors, so did Italy. France does not seem to mind (as much) it's blackness within them, so why are you special? You were ruled by blacks, now blacks were ruled by you. It will eventually change again. It looks like Asians and Muslims are ready. I think this time, they know what to expect from the white man. I bet you when whites lose power again, you cowards will claim to be Asian or rejoice in you past as Muslims. Lack of loyalty is (partly) why you have failed.

• Haha your ramblings get more and more rediculous. You seem to be denying history, fact and science. Firtsly, the Moors were not black. Secondly they only ruled a small area of Southern Spain and in that time lived very segregated. Spaniards that Mixed with them became part of the Islamic Moorish people but Moors never became part of the Spanish. All the Moors were evicted from Spain and with them also the Spanirds who became part of their Islamic culture. The few who hid from the queen joined the gypsies, who also have minimal Moorish blood. If their is a Spaniard who is not gypsie and not white then it is because of recent immigration. How do you reckon Spain failed as an empire? They were in fact so successful that their language is spoken mostly by non-white metzizo in the Americas. That is the reason why you mistake who they are. Spaniards are seen as white everywhere in the world even in the US census. They are not asking to be accepted as white, they just should not be labeled as something they are not, and in the US they are labeled as white. The only reason this artcle is on wikipedia is because US media has led people to believe that every1 who speaks spanish is one race when there are white people who speak spanish, black people who do, asians who do, native americans who do. In fact, this article does not really include Spanirds but rather white people from Latin America. The only reason we are arguing now is because you started with the false claims that white Spaniards have moorish blood. They don't! And the gypsies who do have moorish blood are not Mullatto because Moors were basically dark haired white people. But I am sure their were blondes too. It is in recent years that they started mixing with blacks from Sub-saharan africa.Those ancient morrocans were white. Look at paintings etc. But since white Spaniards are not related to them, it's of no consequence. White Spaniards are white, but this article does not deal with them, it deals with "white" populations in Latin America.

To the person who says Spaniards aren't white. You are a fool

Firstly, DNA tests have shown that as little as between 0% and 3% of White Spaniards have any north African ancestors. Those with non-white ancestors are called gypsies or Gitanos. Please study before making ignorant remarks. Secondly, Columbus discovered America. Do you know what the Natives called the Spanish conquistadors when they came to the Americas? the "WHITE FACE MEN". And sorry to burst you bubble but most Spaniards are actually just as pale as the British. People love to talk about the Moors mixing but that is foolish because in those days if a Muslim converted to Christianity they would be stoned to death. It was law. Fot that reason Spaniards could go into the Moorish community but Moors could never go into the Spanish. The queen eventually expelled all the Moors and those who stayed assimilated into the gypsie communities. Gypsies are found throughout Europe. Oh and btw North African Moors were white too. Spain is the center of all European culture. You obviously don't even know any real Spaniards. Ignorant!

I find it funny that you as a "SO-CALLED" "white" American even tried to say that a European country is non-white. And I say try because your attempts are so pathetic. When white Americans are soooo mixed race it is ludacris calling you white anyway. 33,3333% of you have black ancestors and not even to mention mixing with native americans. You cant fight science. You will never be even a tiny bit as white as a Spaniard or any other European. You try to live with labels that belong to Europeans and not fake made up so called "white" population in the US.

Hey, YOUR direct African past cannot be ignored by history. You mixed with Africans when they ruled your land and you mixed with them when you came to the Americas. There are some non-white European countries. Just because it is Europe does not mean that it is white. Most of you guys stand out like an African in Sweden when you come here. Stop looking for approval by us and be happy with yourselves. You need approval from SPain first. Jumping on and off bandwagons never got anyone anywhere for a sustained period. You people are clearly lost. Either you act as if ROme had something to do with you (they just ruled you and Iberia was about nothing until the Moors), or you get into a great white ancestor, which does not look like you. If that is the case, everyone on earth can look back thousands of years and pull someone out. Just look at you king and Queen. That should give you and idea just how 'pure' you think you are. You don't even know what white is let alone 'pure' white. People in Iberia, southern and eastern Europe cannot talk about pure anything. Blond hari does not make someone white. It only means that whiteness is in them, but when you see other things - you know so I won't go on.

• Firstly, I am not a spaniard. All your comments show your lack of education. Obviously you know nothing about islamic law and that it prevented moors from turning to christianity and thus also prevented them from assimilating into the Spanish population. Secondly, you obviously do not know about the discrimination gypsies in Spain and all around Europe still face today. You keep talking about the Moors but only the gypsies have Moorish blood. And even those gypsies do not have african (black) blood. North Africans were not black. They even Used sub-saharns (blacks) as slaves. As you know your claims of the white Spaniard having Moorish blood has been disproven by dna tests while the fact that white Americans have a huge amount of black blood is proven by dna testing. It is strange how it is always the mixed whites like white Americans who are so obsessed with such things while we in Europe all know that Spaniards are no different to the rest of us and believe me here in Sweden Saniards look just like us. Sorry to inform you of that. Have you ever even been to Spain that you claim to know what they look like? The only Spaniard you've probably ever seen is Enrique Iglesias and his mother is a Filipino so he is not some1 to measure Spaniards by. You want white Spaniards to lie and say they have Moorish blood when they don't when white Americans lie about having black blood. You are a joke!

• • What a genius. I guess that according to this nuclear physicist Meredith Vieira (100% Portuguese descent) isn't white. Neither is Teresa Heinz Kerry. Hate to rain on your nordicist parade, but both the Portuguese and the Spanish are white. if you don't believe your eyes, believe the genetic evidence. No more then 2-3% of the white population of Portugal and Spain have northern African/sub saharan African genes.

Talk page is deteriorating

The discussions on the talk page are deteriorating to the point where nobody is even making any suggestions for the article. Many edits are rants and ramblings. Something needs to be done because the article is static but it is not in good shape. Muntuwandi 12:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)