Talk:White Emigre
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[edit] White Russian
That's the common usage in the English language, both in the US & England, where these Russian, often [[Monarchist]s, emigrated. Therefore, the Article should be MOVED!!!
- --Ludvikus 01:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Disagreed
I think that the term White Russian is only partially correct, because it does not signify necessarily emigration. A "White Russian" could have existed within Russia during the civil war. Historiography in the English language on the subject of White Emigres is not very widespread, so it is hard to argue for a true standard. White emigres refer to themselves as such, usually.
[edit] P.S.
In addition, wanted to mention that while all "White Russians" are members of the White movement yet not all emigrated, at the same time by far not all "White Emigres" were a part of the White movement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tgrain (talk • contribs) 16:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Sources or References
O.K., I understand you, but:
- 1. What are your sources for the term, as actually used historically, or in practice, or is it your own, Original research?
- 2. What about having a separate article on White Russian/ Do you object to this?
Yours truly,--Ludvikus 23:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] White movement
Clearly, the above is the most important meaning!!!
- Yours truly, --Ludvikus 23:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Let's think about it
Sorry for not signing my earlier postings, I only learned how to do that recently! :)
Well, let's get to the core of what White means. White is anti-communist, in the Russian understanding of the term. It can be monarchist or republican, although socialists tend historically to distance themselves from that term regardless of their involvement in the White movement - they sort of sit on the fence between Red and White.
In the Russian language, "White Emigre" is the proper term that is used, this is quite standard if you look at any Russian language publication. This, in my opinion, is also the most accurate term for the English language and it has been used - i.e. Michael Kellog's book, for instance. White Russian would imply sooner a participant of the White movement, and we run into the same problem again, not all White Russians ended up strictly speaking being emigres (General Mikhail Drozdovski is certainly a 'White Russian' but he died on Russian soil without emigrating), and many of those who call themselves White emigres today weren't even born in Russia.
Unfortunately there is not a very solid academic basis for the study of the White emigre community in the English language, we're talking a handful of authors so its hard to argue that there has been any sort of real 'standard useage'.
It's sort of like the term Rossiyane, there is no real English equivalent of it to date so it must be used as a Russian loanword if we are to understand what the term means. People in the English language mistakenly use "Russian" in place of "Rossiyane", a big mistake especially if you ask the non Russian Rossiyane people how they feel about that.
Tgrain 18:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Boris Brasol, White Russian, Monarchist
My interest is in those who, like Brasol, engaged in antisemitic activist by promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The scholars I have always come accross described these as White Russian. I have never come accross the term, White emigré. The most important scholar in this field of the "Protocols" is Norman Cohn Ludvikus 16:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Filip Petrovich Stepanov, & 'White' Russian refugee(s)
Norman Cohn, in his book, Warrant for Genocide, describes the above in dividual (not, by the way, as an antisemite) as:
formerly procurator of the ecclesiastical synod of Moscow, court chaimberlain,
and privy councillor, at Stary Futog, Yugoslavia.
This is on page 108 of Cohn's book. So, the "refugee" or "emigre" status is relevant, I think the "Russian" status is more so. Now maybe the concern is with the fact that "Russian," before the revolution, denoted more often, in such contexts, membership, citizenship (rather, subject), of the Russian Empire - and not necessarily Russian nationality or ethnicity!!!Ludvikus 16:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Count Arthur Cherep-Spiridovich, White Russian
Here's another antisemitic protagonist described by scholars as a "White Russian." The term as used in this context is more important than the alcoholic drink which also comes in the form - in New York City at least - as a "Black Russian." (Kalua, by the way, besides Vodka, is the essential defining ingrediant). So much for Eurasian culture and history for now here! Ludvikus 16:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Semantics point
We have to be very clear with our definitions here.
Clearly from the work of scholars that study Russian/Soviet history (without having to run for a million citations which I don't have time for), White Russian can be taken to mean an anti-communist Russian or occasionally used in a broader context, a pro united Russian state oriented Rossiyanin, opposed to the Bolshevik regime that established itself in November of 1917, who believed in opposing the Bolsheviks with the force of arms who was 1) in a de facto and/or de jure alliance with the armed forces of Generals Kornilov, Denikin, Wrangel, Kolchak, Yudenich, Miller, Krasnov, Filimonov, Diterikhs, Semyonov, Dutov, and their subordinate armed groups, and 2) supported the idea of the lawful constituent assembly, or in rare cases a restoration of the Monarchy (as with Diterikhs).
Those who were against the Bolshevik regime but proposed to preserve the system of Soviets are generally NOT included in this category, i.e. the participants of the Kronshtadt and Antonov rebellions (although the Antonov rebellion did turn "pro white" at its end, under the leadership of Takmakov). Also, after the defeat of Diterikhs army, the White movement as a military movement ceased to exist, all armed groups had ceased to function. Guerilla movements are generally not labelled as "white" by Russian or other historians, save for Soviet polticians who used that label very loosely prior to WWII to label any resistance movement that was anti-communist (frequently referring to them as belo-banditi, or "white bandits").
I think it is pointless to cite sources here because the way I see it, this is general encyclopedic knowledge in both Russian and English lexicons.
Emigre denotes someone who left a country. White Russians who left their country therefore are emigre's. White Russians who emigrated are White Russians, but if you called a descendant of a White Russian a White Russian they may be confused. They would most likely say they are Russians, the descendants of White emigres (White Russians who emigrated), citing that they never fought in any of the armies mentioned.
Furthermore, we have the problem of second emigres who do not technically belong to the category of "White Russian", but have become integrated into the White Russian emigration (since they were an estimated 20,000 people versus the considerably larger pool of White emigres) and have frequent intermarriages.
We also do have the problem, as you pointed out, of Rossiyane, people who are not ethnically Russian but align themselves with the ideas of the White movement, which was pan-Rossiyan in its nature. A Rossiyanin who is the descendant of a White Rossiyanin may object to being called a "White Russian", yet they attend the same functions, are educated in the same Sunday schools, go to the same youth camps, belong to the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (those that are of a traditional Orthodox Christian background), etc.
The "White Russian" term should technically belong to the White movement page, although since such broad useage has been applied to the term it could also be as a SECOND place category to White emigre, but not as the first category, that is semantically less correct IMHO.
Tgrain 18:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Plebiscite vs. Referendum
I guess this is a minor point but why not use the word "referendum" instead of "plebiscite" (2nd paragraph under "Ideological inclinations") especially if the link for plebiscite goes to the referendum article anyway? The purpose of these articles is to inform, the best way to inform is to keep things as simple as possible. I understand that sometimes words have very specific meanings and no other word will do, but if an obscure word is interchangeable with a more commonly known word, why not use the more common word, unless you're just showing off?
--spiderflux 07:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)spiderflux
