Talk:White Dragon (England)

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References that maybe useful for this stub:

Archbishop of Canterbury talks about this here : [1]

Expanded on this reference. This original impression given to the reader was one of an old historic tradition. It is nothing of the sort. WhiteDragonSlayer 22:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I fail to see that if the Dragons are referred to by Nennius and Monmouth, Westminster and Huntingdon in Mediaeval times that this is a modern construct. It wasn't 'invented' by a jeweller. He took his evidence from Nennius and Monmouth! White43 22:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I wrote designed not invented. No, he took his evidence from Monmouth. WhiteDragonSlayer 22:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I shouldn't have to repeat myself: the initial impression given to the reader was one of an old historic tradition of the Church of England dating back centuries. This is the reason for the clarification. It is a modern addition.WhiteDragonSlayer 12:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


It is historically referenced here: [2]

It does NOT appear in the Bayeux Tapestry. A red dragon is shown there. Vague appearances of dragons, but other creatures do border the tapestry, but this does not make it correct.

Actually - yes it does. Closer inspection reveals 3 possible white dragons. I stand corrected. White43 11:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very similar in design to the Wessex Flag(Golden Wyvern on red) and Kent(White Horse on Red).

Correction - they may have used a White Horse, not necessarily on red - alike Wessex, used a Golden Wyvern, not necessarily on red! White43 11:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Historically, it's only ever referenced by the Welsh.

Correction. Golden Wyvern referenced by Henry of Huntingdon and Matthew of Westminster, both post-Saxon times. Although Henry probably was alive before the Norman occupation. However, they both reference the Golden Dragon at Burford, some 400 years earlier.White43 11:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The following comments are taken from here : [3]

Comment on White Dragon Emblem My job is the Secretary of the English Flag Society and as such I have more than a passing interest in the White Dragon Flag of the English. As an historian and vexillologist constantly examining our Early English history between the 3rd and 11th Centuries I came across numerous anecdotal, pictorial and written references to the creatures both real and mythical that featured as symbols in the lives of our early kin. These references - not in any particular order - include the Roman historian Tacitus, the epic Beowulf, Trajans Column, the English (Bayeaux) Tapestry a copy of which can be seen in Reading Museum, Nennius, legends of dragon prowed warships and so on. Remember, historical records have been written by someone and that someone has inevitably written with a slant or bias. It is unavoidable. Prejudice, even in a mild form will corrupt the narrative. It is a natural consequence and often perpetrated unknowingly. That is why, in this brief explanation of events I have avoided quoting Anglo/Normans such as William of Malmesbury and Geoffrey of Monmouth The creatures that featured in the daily lives of the Angles, Jutes and Saxons were naturally, horses, pigs wild fowl and the birds of the forests. Such was the familiarity and such was the respect accorded to some such as the boar, the horse and particularly the raven that they entered emblematic status. But one creature above all others in terms of its numerous references was the dragon which, though mythical had a very long historical pedigree having migrated from the tribes of the East to the armies of Rome through their contact with these tribes and then similarly to the North German tribes who were constantly at war with Rome and although often defeated, had never been conquered. It was then a matter of time before our German ancestors crossed the North Sea bringing not only their bloodline but also their culture. There are some who would argue that the White Dragon and the White Horse the emblem of Kent are one and the same. There are similarities. Given the exigencies of daily life 1500 years ago, I do not think that folk would have been to preoccupied with what they would see as unnecessary detail. The subject of the colours of the White Dragon Flag are uppermost in some minds. Remember, apart from human or animal urine there were no efficient bleaching agents. White would be more akin to beige, fawn or even gold. To give colour, vegetable or fruit dyes were in common use. A bright red would not have existed. Instead, red would be more the colour we know as maroon reflecting the blackberry or elderberry fruits used to dye cloth. The re-discovery of the White Dragon Flag of the English has, for the English Flag Society, been an exhausting, exciting and ultimately fruitful accomplishment. One aspect of this Flag not to be overlooked, is that it is non religious and carries no baggage such as to offend anyone in our polarised society. For the English as well as our guests, it is a Flag completely free of any taint. It can fly as a successor or as an accompaniment to the present Red Cross. John Green The English Flag Society

Comment on White Dragon Emblem posted 2006-11-24 by John Green from Hayling Island Hampshire, PO11 0PQ

It would be nice if this historian would cite his ACTUAL references, rather than referring to them. White43 13:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Lots of updates made - added more Bayeux references, Henry of Huntingdon and Matthew of Westminster. More references added.White43 11:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Evidence

"Almost bordering on mythical, the reference to the 'White Dragon', stems originally from Nennius's Historia Brittonum and later elaborated on in the 'Ancient Prophecies of Merlin' and Historia Regum Britanniae written by Geoffrey of Monmouth. "

I believe this is evidence. Written and historical. So there's no need to add a section stating there's no evidence. The source of the Welsh Red Dragon is from the same story. White43 08:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Re-added evidence section.

As a comment on your own website states and one which you acknowledge: Nennius refers to a White serpent (NOT DRAGON!). Geoffrey of Monmouth story about a story proves nothing. You'll have to do better than that for evidence. I could quite easily write a story about a pink elephant with yellow spots as an English emblem and it would be equally valid!!!

Plus there is a reference to the lack of published works and references. Therefore the evidence section must stay. WhiteDragonSlayer 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It already states in the article that Nennius and Monmouth are the only sources. It is pedantic to add an evidence section. I'm quite aware that Nennius refers to a Serpent, Monmouth in the retelling uses a Dragon. Whether you think you're right or not, the Dragon continued to be used as referenced in Westminster, Huntingdon and Used by the Lionheart. Your evidence section is clearly motivated in an anti-White Dragon standpoint and therefore POV. I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that. White43 21:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"...Dragon continued to be used..." but that was a red dragon not white. Please do some research.WhiteDragonSlayer 22:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
And how about addressing the issue of citations and published works.WhiteDragonSlayer 22:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
It was red? When? Prove it. Hmm, taking quotes from Nennius and Geoffrey of Monmouth, Matthew of Westminster and Henry of Huntingdon is not quoting? I've left your evidence section in - but its hardly NPOV. Needed tidying. I suggest you do some research my friend. I've done mine. White43 21:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added More

Tightened up some of the references and contemporary arguements. www.englishdragon.org.uk - which is site that I have compiled has much more in depth research and analysis of the Dragon. White43 10:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed reference to "Fighting Man". Please! You are so wide of the mark. How can a dragon flag be in the shape of a dragon be in the shape of a man??? It's nothing of the sort. Your analysis is completely wrong. FYI the Fighting Man flag is in the scene where Harold's brothers are killed. WhiteDragonSlayer 20:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Prove it. You keep telling me to do so. Harold in many sources stands with the Wessex Dragon and Fighting Man. It's not just my opinion, it's many peoples opinions (see the bottom of this page : http://www.white431.adsl24.co.uk/bayeux.htm
Rubbish! They say that there are two standards not that they are both dragon standards. And one is the image of a man not a dragon. Take a closer look and you'll see that there are two flags on the ground. Only two throughout the entire tapestry. Therefore they must both have been of the UTMOST IMPORTANCE to the designer. One is the Dragon standard, the other is well... you figure it out - I've already given you the location. go take a look. WhiteDragonSlayer 22:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Two Dragon standards? At what point was I indicating that they are two Dragon standards? I wasn't - are you deluding yourself? Show me a scene with two standards on the ground at Harolds death. White43 22:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh come on! Don't you understand. I wrote that there are only two standards lying on the ground. One is the dragon near Harold the other is near his brothers and it is this that is the Fighting Man standard. WhiteDragonSlayer 22:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
And your evidence is? You see my point - that's your interpretation. I see no evidence that these banners are Fighting Man either. White43 22:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Your name says it all and unless YOU can prove it's not, stop deleting. White43 21:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"To date no evidence whatsoever can be found to support the existence of the White Dragon as an emblem England"
It was for Monmouth. He categorically states White Dragon - Saxons. He also states Red Dragon - Britons. Nennius does say White Serpent, which represents a Dragon. So I presume you think the dragon was green as he doesn't say so. This is beyond pedantic. Now, who uses a Red Dragon in their flag? Are you suggesting that the Dragon is not a symbol of the English? Are just a White Dragon isn't? If you're saying a colour can't be known, then prove it wasn't White. White43 21:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"then prove it wasn't White". Complete nonsense. You're the one making the claim. The onus is on you to prove it is white not me to disprove it.WhiteDragonSlayer 22:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I already have. It's in two mediaeval documents. They are both referred to in this article. Please note that I don't say it appears anywhere else - just references to the Golden Dragon, so I'm not sure why you're being so pedantic. White43 22:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
No it's in a single document. And that is a story not an historical account, so stop distorting WhiteDragonSlayer 22:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The implication is there in Nennius. Don't be pedantic. I never said it wasn't a story - it's a legend. The legend is being written about here and possible arguements over whether the Anglo-Saxons were using it or the Golden Wessex Wyvern. White43 22:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
No let's be specific and deal with facts. If all you've got is a story within a legend portraying an historical fact then you haven't got anything. The legened here is about a white dragon, not a golden one - hence the title. WhiteDragonSlayer 12:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Then change the title of the article, as suggested.White43 15:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the title of this article is incorrect. Perhaps it should be renamed 'English Dragon' or 'Dragon (English)'. White43 22:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

And why only England? We also know of the Welsh dragon and there was also a Scottish one too (at the Battle of the Standard) and they are all related. So why not 'British Dragons'? WhiteDragonSlayer 12:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Why are you lumping English, Scottish and Welsh peoples all in together? With you way of thinking the Welsh Flag should be lumped under British flags. 87.127.178.28 15:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not lumping the people together, it is lumping the dragons together as they are related.WhiteDragonSlayer 19:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well if you want to lump all the dragons together in one article - off you go!
It is clear that with the title 'White Dragon' you're not going to get very far. We can't even get past the first line! And every word you write is going to be held to account. WhiteDragonSlayer 12:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not contributing to this page anymore - I don't believe in the White Dragon enough. I only added to this page as it lacked any description or refs. I'm no pagan by the way. I'm for the Wessex Golden Dragon as a symbol, I always was. Now it's clear you had to come looking for me as you were bored. . I'll revert it back to the position it was in before I added to it. White43 19:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

For gods sake - please check your spelling when adding to this article WhiteDragonSlayer. White43 22:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"For .... sake" - please don't blaspheme. WhiteDragonSlayer 22:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] White43's Vandalism of this Wikipedia page

Please be aware that White43 has carried out extensive vandalism of this page. It has been reverted back.


No, the page has been significantly altered with POV, non-referenced material. All info has been cut and pasted from www.icons.org.uk or www.whitedragonofengland.com. There are no citations. Whoever changed the page needs to learn what Wikipedia is all about. White43 21:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
STOP VANDALISING THE PAGE WHITE43!!!
See above statement WhiteDragonSlayer. White43 21:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CITATIONS PLEASE

If you're going to add to this page - please don't cut and paste it from the two sites mentioned above. Most importantly - don't use weasle statements. You have to be able to backup everything you say. I will continue to revert it, until you can prove everything you say. White43 21:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)