Talk:White Buses

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[edit] Removed allegations that Bernadotte refused to help jews

Removed allegations that Bernadotte refused to help jews. There has been a number of such allegations and to my knowledge no proof, on the contrary several thousand jews was transported out with the white buses.

The critique in nordic countries has been on that the white buses expedition was aimed primarily at nordic prisoners, that swedish women married with germans came after that, and that if possible, other nationalities could be taken along. As the nordic (danes and norwegian) prisoners often were better off it would probably saved more lives if the aim would have been to transport the weakest, regardless of nationality.

I have produced most of the original article (in norwegian) and will try to translate it in total in the coming months. Ulflarsen 12:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Jews were saved but because he was forced to. I've added the ref. Amoruso 12:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
It would be useful if you could present some more of what the book says. Regarding Felix Kerstens he is a source that one should be careful about, he was close to Himmler and had his own agenda. Ulflarsen 13:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
the book is an extensive research on bernadotte. He brings up numerous evidence as well as interviews that bernadotte had which confirm what was reported before by Kerstens and others. Amoruso 13:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, in that case I suggest you remove "claims" and enter "proof" instead, something along the the line that he was against bringing along jews, if I understand you correctly. But it seem a bit odd to me that Himmler, the arch nazi would pressure Bernadotte, the swede, to bring along jews - against his will, on the end of the war. As I wrote previously, and have a broader presentation of in the norwegian wikipedia, the white buses expedition was primarily set up to save nordic prisoners, that is danes and norwegians + swedish women married to germans. If possible, other nationalities could also be brought along. While this is certainly not aimed at helping jews, it was as far as I have read nothing that was against taking them along either. And the critique that has been in the nordic countries among historians and others have largely been around the fact that if Red Cross guidelines were to be followed, danes and norwegians were not the worst off and should be brought to safety after other prisoners, like french, poles, russian and jews of all nationalities. Ulflarsen 15:06, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I think Himmler pressured it so it will look good on their side you know, political reasons, similar to their suggestions in Hungarian trains. You're right, claims is not good enough, but it's claims by historians, because it was disputed at the time. Regev's book brought new evidence to light. Amoruso 15:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, its good if you can give some specific citations from that book, showing what sources he has etc. During the war Kersten had several meetings with Bernadotte, and he surely helped Bernadotte to get the initial meeting with Himmler, but after that there are various claims from his side, and also a falsified letter. Part of the problem is that the records are varying, but you can find several jewish sources and persons that contacted Bernadotte when they heard he was organising a expedition to transport out nordic prisoners, Gilel Storch was possibly the one that had the closest contact with him. Another was Norbert Masur - he did also travel together with Kersten to Berlin in april 45 and talked directly with the SS leaders. Gilel Storch did not support any view that Bernadotte were against taking jews along, seems like one of the few (if only) was Kersten. Ulflarsen 16:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

He cites a recorded interview with the danish minister and with Zvi Zameret. I wrote down the relevant pages , used it in bernadotte article but that was erased and closed down due a dispute about the word "terrorist". I should read the whole thing again but he clearly makes this allegations and confirms the earlier reports of Truper and others that he acted this way. Amoruso 16:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, will check out a book I have about it myself, and see if I can find something else about it as well. That he refers to the Danish minister seems strange, the danes had their disputes with Bernadotte, but can not remember anyone from there claiming he did not want jews brought back with the expedition. Ulflarsen 16:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The evidence, really

Since Zvi Zameret specialises in the history of education and Ofer Regev is a writer of popular books, not much can be expected from there. As for Baruch Nadel, he was one of Bernadotte's murderers and using him as a source on anything except the murder would be an obscenity. However, leaving all that aside, there is of course an existing set of charges against Bernadotte that should be mentioned. They come from two sources:

  1. Felix Kersten played a significant role in convincing Himmler to release the prisoners. However, when Bernadotte published his own story in 1945, he didn't mention Kersten at all. This naturally infuriated Kersten, but his justified anger went too far and his revenge even including forging documents to implicate Bernadotte. The most infamous document was proven fake by the Holocaust historian Gerald Fleming. Unfortunately Kersten's lies fooled Trevor-Roper who repeated Kersten's charges. However, in the 1980s Trevor-Roper eventually admitted that his work had been based on dubious sources.
  2. After Bernadotte was made UN Mediator in Palestine, and especially after his murder, the Zionist right wing had an obvious motive for vindicating his murder. This motivation continues and is the main reason these charges against Bernadotte continue to be raised.

I don't have time at the moment to edit the article, but I'll copy some extracts from Sune Persson, Folke Bernadotte and the White Buses, J. Holocaust Education, Vol 9, Iss 2-3, 2000, 237-268. Also published in David Cesarani and Paul A. Levine (eds.), Bystanders to the Holocaust: A Re-evaluation (Routledge, 2002). This is the most detailed academic source I can find that is based on primary documents.

[In summary] The accusations against Count Bernadotte, levelled by such men as Kersten, Trevor-Roper and Lindquist, to the effect that he refused to save Jews from the concentration camps are obvious lies. This was clearly stated by Erik Boheman, Under-Secretary at the Swedish Foreign Ministry in 1945; Torsten Brandel and Lennart Nylander, the two Secretaries at the Swedish legation in Berlin who worked with Bernadotte in 1945; Hans Arnoldson, the Chief Medical Doctor assigned to the white buses; Sverker Astrom, the sole official at the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1945 who is still alive; Hillel Storch, the WJC [World Jewish Congress] representative in Stockholm in 1945; Hans Cappelan, Chairman of the Norwegian Association of War Prisoners; and Iens Elliot Nyegard, Director of the Danish FRSA. (Persson, p264)
Trevor-Roper's article and foreword are remarkable documents since this world-renowned historian uses almost no Swedish sources, has complete confidence in the account given by Kersten (Himmler's personal doctor!), and includes documents which have been subsequently proven to be falsifications, and were most probably fabricated by Kersten himself. (Persson, p249)

Persson spells out all the evidence in detail and also provides quite a lot of evidence of Bernadotte's positive attitude towards Jews. For example:

Significantly, in 1944 Bernadotte gave Storch [Stockholm representative of the World Jewish Congress] and the WJC permission to use the Swedish Red Cross as a cover for the sending of food parcels to Jews in Nazi concentration camps. The Swedish Red Cross then put a truck loaded with Red Cross materials (including letters, forms and labels) at the WJC's disposal. According to Storch, 'Bernadotte was very favourably disposed to the cause of the Jews.' Storch, in fact, saw himself as the initiator of the entire Swedish rescue operation. (Persson, p251)

And again:

[Captain Harald Falke, the leader of the Theresienstadt expedition] wrote that it was Bernadotte himself who conceived the entire plan to remove the Scandinavian Jews from Theresienstadt, that Bernadotte's order was to begin the operation 'at once'" (Persson, p260)

Other good sources are A. Ilan, Bernadotte in Palestine, 1948, and R. Palmer, Felix Kersten and Count Bernadotte: A Question of Rescue, Journal of Contemporary History, 29: 1 (1994:Jan.) 39-51. Palmer is quite sympathetic towards Kersten, but writes:

Bernadotte's jealousy of Kersten's accomplishments led to Kersten's manufacturing documents to support his claims. (p48)

--Zerotalk 12:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When I have the time

I'll read through your scholary analysis and maybe we will quote you too - have you written books so far ? As for now, we'll stick with wikipedia policy, and cite WP:RS like Regev. Amoruso 15:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems like user Zero have some useful information regarding that Bernadotte supposedly denied jews access to "the white buses". Since you have not provided any sources that are accepted I believe it is prudent of us to remove your allegations from the article. Ulflarsen 17:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I think there's something you fail to understand. Saying "seems to have an an axe to grind with bernadotte" or attacking credibility is your WP:OR which is fabricated by Zero0000. Sourced material can not be blanked out just because someone doesn't like it. You can contradict it but you can't blank it out. There's no problem to include Zero's quotations as well on the issue. The problem is when he starts vandalising the page enforcing his own WP:POV. Both opinions can be heard, also Kersten and the allegations that he fabricated documents and so on. All this should be addressed. He can't decide for the reader, which is what he consistently did. Amoruso 04:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding this sentence:

"There are also claims that Bernadotte refused to rescue Jews, and the Jews that were included were there in spite of his refusal and as a result of pressure from Himmler and Himmler's doctor Felix Kersten (Regev, page 184)."

Can someone give a full citation for Regev's book? Perhaps it's the one that's reviewed on [1]? If so, I'd hardly call the book a "reliable source".... --Alvestrand 12:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

When are you going to show some proof for it? It is not enough to list a page in a book, anyone can do that. You need to show reliable sources in order to have it in Wikipedia. I am waiting for your evidence that Bernadotte refused to rescue Jews. Ulflarsen 13:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)