Talk:Whidbey Island

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[edit] Longest island?

I added a few facts, but have not created links to other articles from my addidtions. Will go back and update later, when I am more comfortable with the process (I am a new user.) I also corrected one or two minor inaccuracies.

I question the fact of Long Island being created by dredging the East River, though. I know the island was recently classified as a peninsula, but dredging that river would be a prodigious feat today, never mind in the 1600's. I believe the river is a natural waterway. Any facts supporting the dredging idea? I would like to remove the reference to dredging.

Info about Long Island vs. Whidbey Island

Whidbey Island is the longest island in the contiguous United States according to the Supreme Court ruling of February, 1985. Whidbey is 45 miles long. Long Island, at 118 miles, was declared to be a peninsula.

 From [[1]]

TEG

Well that's certainly interesting trivia, if it's indeed true (the reference is quite week on that web reference). :) Do you have an actual citation from the court case? But in any case I can assure you that Long Island is an island. Only something who has never been there would claim that it isn't. You previously mentioned that it is separated from the mainland by a salt marsh?. This is way off the mark. Certainly if the Supreme Court indeed said that, it was in the context as defined by some statute The reason the island is not circumnavigable by "modern" ships is that the Hell Gate is too swift and treacherous--something that has always posed a hazard for navigation--so in other words, just the opposite of your claim. In any case, the Supreme Court has the last word in matters of interpretation U.S. law, but that's as far as it goes. It doesn't decide geographical fact, only how to interpret laws as they are written. Thus the definition of being circumnavigable by modern ships is one that was written for a particular federal, state or local law--a very narrow choice, and certainly only one of many as to how to define an "island". Perhaps it arose from the wording of a state law. If so, if a different state had a different legal definition, the Supreme Court might rule differently according to that law. In other words, absent other facts, one can't even claim that the Supreme Court always uses that particular definition: it may well have been one that was according to some legal principle that may be very local in scope.
I'd bet that if you open up any dictionary and looked up island, you would not see anything about it having to be circumnavigable by "modern" ships. That would certainly rule out a lot of "islands" most people consider islands. In any case, the Supreme Court is certainly not the final word in matters of facts of geography. No legal scholar would claim that it doesn. It's an organ of law, not science. If this were a law encycopedia, then the issue would certainly be more relevant. But as for what is an island and what isn't, I'll take the advice of the USGS over the Supreme Court when it comes to geographical things. Go to their site and type in Long Island and see what it says for the New York listing. The New York State legislature could pass a law that says the Moon is a planet, not a satellite, and the Supreme Court might uphold it, but that doesn't make it physically so--only "true" as a matter of interpretation of a particular statute. In any case, I'm not opposed to keeping the reference in the article as it stands. It sounds like quaint puffery, and one that would make any New Yorker who reads it laugh. Long Island will survive as an island in any case.-- Decumanus 08:52, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
I think the point is that it goes back to the definition of an island. Long Island is techinically a peninsula (see the Long Island article). Also, I may have found a link to the Supreme Court decision. Kukuman 05:32, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
More Sources are Listed below... All you need is to do a Google search...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/whidbey-island.htm
http://www.whidbey.com/nis/www/whidbey.html
http://www.youra.com/destinations/places/whidbey.html
http://www.oakharbor.org/subcategory.cfm?id=9&sid=34
http://www.geocities.com/northamericaaz/ http://www.nps.gov/ebla/adhi/adhi2.htm- Even Has a Book Source
http://www.homebytheseacottages.com/frenchroadfarm/frf_whidbey.html TEG 17:01, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well I'm disputing you anymore on the particular standard by which Long Island was legally "declared" a peninsula in 1985. Like I said, I'm fine with the way it was worded.  :) -- Decumanus 23:10, 2004 Dec 13 (UTC)
Well, after seeing other arguments, I thought it was better to be fair and say the Whidbey is only considered to be the longest island in the lower 48. Seems a little more neutral. TEG 02:53, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ending the "longest island" debate

I hope the following points will nail this coffin shut for good.

1. The US Supreme Court never said Long Island is not an island in a geographical sense.

The New York Times examined this issue last year in the following article

LONG ISLAND AT ITS BEST; Who's the Longest of Them All?
By JOHN BURBIDGE (New York Times) 1083 words
Published: November 21, 2004

excerpt:

[Dr. Michael Baur of Fordham University] came across the [Whidbey] longest-island claim, read the fine print in the New York and Rhode Island Boundary Case and concluded that the longest-island claim was a little short on truth.

. . . . . . . . . .

"[T]he court wasn't saying Long Island isn't an island in a geographical sense," he continued. "In fact, all parties involved in the case agreed Long Island is a geographical island. It was only for the purposes of the case that the island was declared an extension of New York's coastline. Geographically, Long Island is an island, and to claim anything else is a misrepresentation of the facts."

Dr. Patrick Kennelly, an assistant professor of geography, and Dr. Lillian Hess Tanguay, an associate professor of geology, both at the C.W. Post Campus of Long Island University, concur with Dr. Baur's conclusion. Long Island is, in fact, a real island by any definition. And as such, its 118-mile length is more than twice that of Whidbey.

You can read the actual decision, where the court opined that within a specific statutory context, Long Island can be considered an "extension of the mainland," even though geographically it's still an island:

(a) As a general rule islands may not normally be considered extensions of the mainland for purposes of creating headlands of juridical bays, but may be so considered if they "are so integrally related to the mainland that they are realistically parts of the `coast' within the meaning of the Convention." United States v. Louisiana, 394 U.S. 11, 66 . Here, Long Island presents the exceptional case of an island that should be treated as an extension of the mainland.


2. The US Geological Survey officially classifies Long Island as an "Island."

http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=gnispq:3:::NO::P3_FID:977426

Feature ID: 977426
Name: Long Island
Class: Island
Entry Date: 01-Jan-2000


3. Michigan's Isle Royale is several miles longer than Whidbey Island.

A graphic showing Isle Royale superimposed over Whidbey:

http://tinypic.com/6f1152.gif

Using Yahoo maps and two print atlases, I estimated the maximum end-to-end lengths of Isle Royale and Whidbey Island to be 45 and 36 miles respectively. The latter figure agrees with this Seattle PI article. Some past exaggerated measurements of Whidbey (40+ miles) seem to have been measured along a zig-zag path following the meanderings of the island, not a straight line from end to end.


4. Padre Island (a barrier reef island in Texas) is longer than Whidbey Island.

Some authorities have put the length of Padre Island at over 100 miles [2],[3]. Other sources say 70 miles, but that's still plenty long enough.


5. The Seattle Times admitted that Whidbey is only the 5th longest island in the contiguous U.S.

It ranks behind "Long Island, an island in Michigan and two in Texas." See Whidbey is long, but let's not stretch it from the Seattle Times (may require registration) or Island Misinformation.


6. The Longest Islands in the United States also ranks Whidbey 5th.

[edit] OK, its the fifth.

But the length is still wrong. In the link on #6 it states that Whidbey is 41 Miles Long. Also, very rarely are reefs considered islands like Padre Island, and isn't Hatteras the same as Cape Hatteras (Major difference in Geography). I suggest that the language be changed to reflect the correct length of 41 miles, and state that; "It has been widely held as fact for 150 years that Whidbey Island was the second longest Island in the Continental US. However, a Supreme court ruling, about Long Island, muddied the waters to make it appear that it was in fact the longest. Today, its status is in dispute as Isle Royal, Hatteras Island, and Padre Island are longer, but the latter two's status as islands and not reefs is is question."

Make whatever changes you see fit. Keep in mind though that link #6 actually states "For bent or crooked islands, like Whidbey, length was calculated by drawing a bent line along the island's main axis from end to end. Thus, Whidbey's length in the following chart [41 miles] could be considered a liberal estimate, since a straight line across it would result in a lower number." The 36-mile length is the straight-line distance from one end to the other. Opie 19:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Update: Google Earth's measure tool gives the straight-line length of Whidbey as about 37 mi [4]. The minimum overland distance between the two extremes of the island is roughly 41 mi [5].

[edit] Alternate Spellings?

The article lists Whidby and Whibey as alternate spellings. I believe this may be an error. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

The South Whidbey Record, a newspaper has used both spellings (Whidby and Whidbey). Also, the Whidby Masonic Lodge still uses the former spelling. TEG 02:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Whidby as variant spelling according to USGS GNIS: http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=135:3:1634201133828127963::NO::P3_FID:1509451 Pfly 19:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Whidbey Camano Tourism 05:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Would it be possible to link to the Official Whidbey and Camano Islands Tourism website to provide more information about things to see and do? The home page does have a flash intro with music by Laurie Z, a local artist (recently deceased due to terminal cancer); show we are honoring her legacy. The intro can be stopped by clicking on the "skip intro" button. The URL is www.WhidbeyCamanoIslands.com and I am the Tourism Coordinator for Island County. I can be emailed at RoseAnn@IslandCountyTourism.com or reached through the Official Tourism office at 1-888-747-7777. Thanks in advance, RoseAnn

[edit] Largest island?

The article currently states that at 168.67 mi², Whidbey Island is the 2nd largest island in the continental U.S. Long Island is definitely the largest at 1,377 mi², but I was suprised to find that Isle Royale is 206.73 mi². This would make Whidbey at least #3. I am having trouble finding an area measurement for Padre Island, besides this website describing Padre as being "113 mi (182 km) long and up to 3 mi (5 km) wide". Whidbey may be fourth. I will edit the article to include Isle Royale, but not yet Padre Island. -- BlueCanoe 02:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I find Padre Island to be larger. http://www.wip.britannica.com/ebc/article-9057952 gives its area as 203 square miles. Other sources say 209.25 square miles. Padre Island's length is given variously, but the stats I found range between 113 and 130 miles long. Other islands that may or may not be longer than Whidbey include Matagorda Island and Hatteras Island. I know it is tempting to rank things as largest, longest, etc, but maybe it would be better to simply say "one of the largest" and "one of the longest"?
Also, wrt above comment about Padre and Hatteras beings reefs -- they are barrier islands, not reefs. One could argue that barrier islands are in a different class of island than rocky ones like Whidbey, but adding qualifiers like that to claims of largest/longest makes the claims start to sound somewhat desperate. "Whidbey is the largest island in the United States, except two others, and except Alaska and Hawaii, and except barrier islands." ...it would be better, I think, to concentrate on describing Whidbey Island itself rather than spending time figuring out how superlative it is. Pfly 19:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and reworded that paragraph, eliminating the numerical rankings and simply using "one of longest and largest islands", although I left in the three islands that were cited and linked. The excess verbiage was distracting and ultimately irrelevant. Horologium 03:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Gray whales migrate between Whidbey and Camano Islands during March and April of each year and can be seen from the shore and from watching boats. --this seems unlikely to me.. my understanding is that gray whales rarely enter Puget Sound at all, let alone Saratoga Passage. Can we get a reference? Pfly 06:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extra spaces???

A lot of the sections had extra spaces (like t his) for some reason. I went through and removed a bunch, you might spot some more. Bigmak 14:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I started to clean up things like extra spaces, grammar, tone, etc. The page begins well but seems to degenerate about halfway down, which is about where I ran out of energy to copyedit. Also, there is a "trivia" section, which on wikipedia seems to usually indicate an article dumping ground for random factoid lists. They'd be better included in the article's main text, or in a "See also" section, or just removed if truly trivial. Pfly 08:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coupeville trivia

After looking through some of the incorporation dates for towns in Washington listed at, I remove the claim: "Historic Coupeville is the third oldest incorporated town in Washington State." According to the Coupeville page, it was incorporated in 1910, which seems to be younger than most of the towns of Washington. For example, Steilacoom (1854), Waterville (1890), Farmington (1888), Ruston (1906), Index (1907), and so on. Pfly 05:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can I not count?

Article: "It is ranked as the fifth longest and fifth largest island in the contiguous United States, behind Padre Island, Texas (the world's longest barrier island); Long Island; and Isle Royale, Michigan."

But I only count 3 there. If Padre Island is #1, Long Island is #2, and Isle Royale is #3, then why isn't Whidbey #4? I'm missing something... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.71.174.167 (talk) 05:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)