Talk:Wheel of the Year

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Contents

[edit] Merge with Sabbat (neopaganism)

I'm now working on merging the two articles. I know there's been alot of discussion about it. The opposition seems to be over the term "Sabbat" because it is not used in all forms of Neopaganism. Therefore, I'll merge it to "Wheel of the Year", and make "Sabbat" the redirect. The community can then move the page to wherever it chooses. Regardless of the naming, these articles must be merged! Leaving them separate is like having separate pages for "The Week" and "Days of the week". I'll also try to organize the festival information into a small table, and make a footer template for the differnet festival pages. --gwc 03:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

There's also a contradiction btw the two articles. One states that "fire festivals" are the Quarter days, the other says that they are the Cross-quarter days. Someone who is sure which one is correct please correct this! --gwc 03:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The merging is done. No information was removed, except for the following sentences (either because I couldn't put the information in smoothly, or because it was repeated elsewhere in the article):

Sabbath was also used during the European witch trials to refer to supposed gatherings of witches engaging in Devil worship; such gatherings were earlier referred to as "synagogues of Satan". Jews, at the time, were widely believed to be Devil-worshippers, which explains the use of Jewish terms to describe the activities of witches.[citation needed]
Pagans usually also observe secular holidays in their culture, and sometimes festivals from majority religions - for example, participating in Christmas gatherings if the rest of their family does so. However, they do not usually commemorate these holidays by rituals in their or another religion.
In addition they seem to align with the 1st of the four months in the Gregorian calendar, but are in fact several days later. If the Gregorian calendar had equal-length months and were aligned with the cross-quarter days then the solstices and equinoxes would fall halfway through the months of December, March, June, and September, and the true cross-quarter days would be on the 1st of November, February, May, and August.
Druids do not order their meetings by the moon but also hold regular working and study meetings.
The eightfold wheel of the year punctuates the path of the sun through the twelve-fold Tropical zodiac.
Most witches also hold smaller rituals, alone or with a coven, Lodge, or Circle. These are held monthly, often at each full moon but sometimes at the new moon; see Esbats.

--gwc 08:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates of the Solstices and Equinoxes

[|The US Naval Obseravtory publishes "the" national standard data for the dates and times of the solstices and equinoxes. The times given there are in UT (Universal Time -similar to GMT) so they read 5 hours ahead of what clocks are reading in the US's Eastern Standard Time or 4 hours during Eastern Daylight Saving Time. Neopagan publications have been mis-stating the dates of the solstices and equinoxes for generations now, probably just by copying from each other and being befuddled by the seemingly ambiguous dates they find when referencing the astronomical data.
The following values represent the actual/correct dates based on USA time (EST/EDT):

MARCH EQUINOX: usually March 20th; occasionally the 21st; NEVER the 24th or 25th...

JUNE SOLSTICE: usually June 21st; occasionally the 20th...

SEPTEMBER EQUINOX: usually Sept. 23rd; occasionally the 22nd; NEVER (never) the 20th, 21st 24th, 25th...

DECEMBER SOLSTICE: usually Dec. 21st; occasionally the 22nd

Earrach

Actually this is incorrect. The winter solstice here in New Zealand this year, for instance, was 22 June!
The earliest times for the solstices and equinoxes (close to our current century) will be in the year 2096, and the latest times were in the year 1903. Taking these earliest and latest times, the possible date ranges in Universal Time are (accurate to within about 20 minutes):
  1. 19 Mar 13:52UT — 21 Mar 19:12UT
  2. 20 Jun 06:19UT — 22 Jun 15:07UT
  3. 21 Sep 22:47UT — 24 Sep 05:46UT
  4. 20 Dec 20:47UT — 23 Dec 0:18UT
which makes the possible dates, allowing for all time zones:
  1. March equinox 19-22 March
  2. June solstice 19-23 June
  3. September equinox 21-24 Sept
  4. December solstice 20-23 Dec
Fuzzypeg☻ 00:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The wheel in the tropics

Hmm.. I recently moved from Australia to where I am now, 3 degrees north of the equator. So Beltane is coming up, but technically if I travel just a few hundred kilometers south i might choose to celebrate both Beltane and Samhain. *confused* also in the Chinese calendar there is all soul's day as somewhat part of my heritage (dabbling in wicca was a "non-hereditary" choice of mine if this makes any sense whatsoever)

Yes. The article seems to be exclusively about the wheel in high latitudes. Within the tropics things are very different. Eg, at the equator the mid-day sun is highest at both equinoxes (not one of the solstices) and lowest at both solstices (but relatively low to the north at one and similarly low to the south at the other). And things get rather more complicated as you move either side of the equator. Laurel Bush 12:45, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC).
The wheel was developed in temperate zones. It would not have much bearing, if any, on the climates in tropical zones.

[edit] Verification of the History of the Sabbats

Does anyone know if the history of the Sabbats is accurate? I'm referring to the part of the the article where it states that Ostara was selected to relate to Easter, and that the entire Wheel of the Year is largely a modern construction. Most people I speak to seem to indicate otherwise, so it would be interesting to see this information verified and perhaps elaborated upon.

Yes, it's accurate, drawn from The Pagan Religions of the Early British Isles among other sources. I can cite them and provide quotations if you like.Cavalorn 15:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
The individual festivals all have historical European roots from somewhere or other, plus evidence that a festival around the spring equinox existed before Easter, however, the there is no evidence that the entire wheel as it is currently known was used by any historical group until the mid 1900's.

[edit] Assumed link to Gregorian calendar

I removed

"Samhain, Imbolc, Bealtaine and Lughnasadh are sometimes defined as cross-quarter points and their dates seem to pay anachronistic respect to the Gregorian calendar. Unlike the astrological calendar the Gregorian is not aligned with particular astronomical events in the wheel of the year. Both the cross-quarter dates and the Gregorian calendar may represent however some ancient (now forgotten) practice in the alignment of a twelve-month calendar, practice in which the alignment is deliberately one-eighth of a circle (45 degrees) out of phase with that of the astrological calendar. It is morelikely that these dates have become attached to the Calends of their respective months, along with their corresponding and closely intertwined Christian Holy Days (Samhain ... Halloween etc).

In the Gregorian calendar four boundaries between months are close to but several days earlier than the precise midpoints between solstices and equinoxes. If the Gregorian calendar had equal-length months and were accurately aligned with the precise cross-quarter points then the solstices and equinoxes would fall halfway through the months of December, March, June and September, and the true cross-quarter points would be on the boundaries between October and November, January and February, April and May and between July and August." to this talk page as, while there may be some useful material that can be salvaged, the entire argument is based on incorrect historical data and an assumption that the 'true dates' of Samhain etc derive from the zodiacal year and from the gregorian calendar. The "some ancient and now forgotten" comment is wooly and unreferenced, the "anachronistic respect" comment is itself anachronistic, and the whole thing looks more like original research than an encyclopedia entry and thus,unsuitable for wikipedia. --Nantonos 15:49, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

ACK! Definitely pull anything that says, as above: "the Gregorian is not aligned with particular astronomical events in the wheel of the year."- -good lord, nailing the Vernal Equinox down to not stray from (a Vatican/Rome date of) March 20th-21st was the whole reason for the formulation of that calendar! This the very reason that the dates of the solstices and equinoxes are not as ambiguous as pagan authors seem to assume. My apologies to the Kiwi's but the whole system was meant to be fixed from Rome (and later Greenwich) - -which often leaves the New Zealanders way out ahead on a different day of the week than the rest of us. earrach Sept18th2007.

Going back to the version that the above replaced might have been more useful that just removing it. Of course I may be biased.
Alex Law 12:02, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
The text I removed was an addition, not a replacement. However, in checking that, I found that there was a large deletion here and some of that material might usefully be reincorporated.
Your comment about the kalends was on the right track, but saying that they "have become attached" is incorrect- that was their original definition. --Nantonos 10:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I added back the quote and the comment about the modern construction of the wheel, as those are very true. I also rearranged the article slightly, as there seemed to be too much text in the introduction.

[edit] May I remove the Gregorian Months and Astrological Signs sections?

The Gregorian months and Astrological signs seem to add very little to the article other than words and space. I'm not sure why one would want tables like this, when the dates of the festivals allow you to figure it out easily enough. They're not that easy to read anyway, and a diagram would be better. I suggest just remove these sections and let people look up Zodiac if they want, or else if anyone's really keen they can draw up a nice simple diagram that includes months, zodiacal signs and festivals. Fuzzypeg 14:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major cleanup required - possible merge with Sabbat (neopaganism)

Reading a bit more of the article I find some totally untrue statements, such as "In Paganism all of nature is cyclical" (see Paganism). This article has been written almost exclusively from a Neopagan perspective, with no explanation that that is the case. Also, most of the key information is repeated in Sabbat (neopaganism), suggesting a merge. My guess is that "Sabbat" is the most generic of the two titles, so that should become the title of the merged article and "Wheel of the Year" be a re-direct. Fuzzypeg 14:35, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion moved to Talk:Sabbat (neopaganism). Fuzzypeg☻ 06:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paganism vs. Wicca

I changed this line in the intro "In Paganism all of nature is cyclical" because it seemed overbroad to me. Such sweeping statements are risky, and I'm uncomfortable letting it stand. The very term "Wheel of the Year" is primarily/originally a Wiccan one, to the best of my understanding; to assume that all of Paganism (or even NeoPaganism) uses this model is not supported in my experience.

I'm more than happy to be corrected, but until that happens I'd like to keep this as supportable as possible.

Plus, of course, the Paganism=Wicca notion, all too prevalent, is one that irks me, and I struggle to keep it from flourishing whenever I can. Septegram 20:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Information

I'll be adding information from my college textbook "A History of Pagan Europe" by Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick; if you do merge the articles please make sure that information gets put in the right place. Thanks Kuronue 15:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


Actually I believe the term is a Traditional Witchcraft from an Oral tradition, not a Wiccan one, though I could be wrong. 69.245.172.44 23:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I think you might have mis-typed that sentence; I can't make any sense of it. What are you trying to say about traditional witchcraft and oral traditions? Fuzzypeg☻ 20:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An image

Would an image (or more appropriately) a 'wheel' be appropriate to show everyone the wheel of the year as a visual? I would include north and south hemisphere information. I just thought i should ask opinions, and, should it be a simple black one. or a decorative one with a pentacle on it and a cat hanging off? :P I think i know which one is more appropriate! I think once an image is added, that this would make a nice featured article for the release of the Wicca Portal, but thats completely another discussion. Brenton.eccles 09:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you have an image already in mind? I think it's a good idea. If you've got one, go ahead and put it up; then I think you'll get a better idea about what people think. romarin [talk ] 19:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Creating it now, will show later, when am online next. --Brenton.eccles 10:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Added note: Ive tried a few ways of presenting the wheel simply, but havent come up with something clean enough, getting there though. :) --Brenton.eccles 04:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Added my image of the Wheel of the Year, and i just realised, that ive got some of the seasons wrong, according to the names chosen here at Wikipedia. Chaning them. --Brenton.eccles 08:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes, i have fixed those names, :)! Hope everyone likes it, i know its not the best graphic ive put up here at Wikipedia, but as with all things on Wikipedia, its open to improvement, i hope it illsutrates the wheel decently enough for the article. Do you think we should have one for the Southern Hemisphere as well? --Brenton.eccles 10:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I think it looks great, Brenton. Good job! --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 04:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Thankyou, i was a little apprehensive about it at first, but now i look at it, i think its good how it complements the article. There is still much work to be done on this article though. For example, we need to get sources going on this article soon. So im going to go to my town library and borrow one of my favourite book about the wheel of the year, so i can start adding sources. --144.131.178.19 06:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC) (aka brenton forgetting to login)
Just to throw a spanner in the works, the very common choice to display the wheel as progressing "clockwise" is directly contrary to nature Herself. As seen from above the northern hemisphere,the Earth goes around the Sun COUNTER CLOCKWISE ("widdershins") while it turns on its own axis counter clockwise (widdershins) - and so on pretty much alike with the rest of the solar system. We're on the inside looking-out like kids riding in an automobile wondering "did that house and tree just go from right to left - - or did I just go from left to right? / PS: The image is nice, but could you ditch the name "Mabon" ? Must we move into the future driven by the lowest common denominator? Maybe "September Equinox" and "March Equinox"? (that's even fair to the Kiwis) earrach

[edit] Cleanup

While prior to the Sabbat merge the Wheel article had flaws, I can't see how the merge has helped this article. What we have now is badly structured and confusingly written, including redundancies and errors that need to be cut. The tone also jumps around, and there are numerous unsourced bits. So I've put the cleanup tag on this until the problems can be fully dealt with. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I've gone through and knocked some holes into the article for restructuring. Clearly, the article is a mess and some bold changes are necessary here. If anyone feels the need to restore what I've killed, please keep in mind why I did it. :bloodofox: 14:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Alright, after knocking down several walls and putting a new facade up, this should be at least somewhat more approachable. I've removed the tag. :bloodofox: 15:07, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time for footnotes

We've managed to whip this into pretty good shape. Now it needs thorough footnoting, as it currently has none at all. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, unless someone starts doing footnotes, we're going to have to flag this as unsourced. This could be a good article, but not without citations. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 06:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Positively Disgusting

Someone put the sabbats box in with the wheel thumbnail, and it looked horrible, so i put it all back as was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brenton.eccles (talk • contribs) 11:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

I thought it looked much better with the boxes aligned vertically. If you don't like them both in the same box, do you know a way to put the sabbats nav box below the Wheel graphic? With them side by side I think it squishes the text too much. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 08:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A "Moon Sabbat" is an Esbat.

Pretty self explanatory. Any Wicca book I have read only uses the term "moon sabbat" when saying that is what an esbat is. Disinclination 07:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

There is also no citations in that whole section. I really don't think it is relevant, since sabbats are meant to be solar festivals, not lunar. Disinclination 05:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like maybe it needs to go then. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

What they're describing there is not an esbat, though; it's the idea of celebrating the sabbat at the nearest convenient full moon (or dark moon). It's only the terms "moon sabbat" and "sun sabbat" that I'm unfamiliar with; the concept itself is fairly widespread. The idea is that the "old" festivals are the cross-quarter days Candlemas, Beltane, Lammas and All Hallows; these supposedly derive from agricultural festivals predating the solar calendar, so the setting of their dates is thought to have been luni-solar. The four quarter days are thought to have been a more recent addition, their dates being set strictly according to the astronomical solstices and equinoxes. I don't know the actual history of the 8 festivals, but this is the "received wisdom".

This is not the only (or even the most common) way of determining the dates. Many groups just observe the cross-quarter festivals on their modern dates (2 Feb, 1 May, 1 Aug, 1 Nov), some shift them all a few days to account for old Julian-Gregorian calendar disparities; some put them exactly midway between the equinoxes and solstices, and some hold them at the nearest full or dark moon.

But I've never heard "sun sabbat" or "moon sabbat" before. They're just "sabbats" in most of the literature, regardless of how their time is fixed. Sorry I don't have references with me... Fuzzypeg☻ 23:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps then we could merge this in with other sections, that some groups move the dates to coincide with certain solar dates and certain lunar dates (like the full moon or the new moon, etc)? If some groups do do this, I think it should remain. Just not as its own section. It's not really in the majority, either, it seems. Disinclination 19:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clearing up some stuff

Wiccans, and some Neopagans who base their practices on Wicca, observe eight festivals, which are commonly referred to as "sabbats". These fall on the solstices, and the equinoxes, sometimes known as "quarter days," and the four dates falling (approximately) midway between them, known as the "cross-quarter days" or "fire festivals." In some calendars each cross-quarter day marks the start of a season.

Here are some questions I have about the above:

  • What sabbats are the cross-quarter days/fire festivals?
  • What sabbats are the quarter days?

I have a few assumptions, but I really don't want to go ahead with it until I read it from someone else.. or get my hands on a book later today. The sentence structure right now is really kind of sloppy and doesn't make sense, and its hard to understand what is being referred to. What are these "four dates falling midway between"? WHAT are they falling between? Also.. which dates are the ones changing the seasons? Samhain, Imbolc, etc? Or Yule, Ostara, etc? I just really think we need to clear this up and fix the sentence structure.

Just another thing, perhaps we should mention the origins of the sabbats, like what kind of culture they come from? I remember reading somewhere that four of the festivals have Germanic/other origins, and that some (I believe that are "fire" fesitvals) come from Celtic origins. Disinclination 19:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The cross-quarters are the four that are not solstices or equinoxes: Beltaine, Lammas/Lughnassadh, Samhain, Imbolc.
I have not heard this term "fire festivals" applied to the cross-quarters, myself.
The four dates fall midway between the solstices and equinoxes (that's the "them" in the sentence), i.e. Beltaine falls between the vernal equinox and the summer solstice.
I believe this sentence is my rework of a somewhat less-readable one: I apologize if it's still unclear. If you have ideas for improving it, edit mercilessly! {grin}
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 20:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your help. :) I really just wanted to make sure not to mangle it up anymore before doing anything. I'm just uncertain about one more thing: which of the two "sets" change the seasons? Quarter or Cross-Quarter? Disinclination 20:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Long before I even heard of Paganism, I thought that the seasons should change so that the longest day was actually the middle of the summer, not the beginning, the shortest the middle of winter etc. However, strange though I think it is to have it work that way, I and everyone I know recognizes that mainstream society considers the summer solstice to be the beginning of Summer, the vernal equinox the beginning of Spring, etc., and goes along with that.
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The date that a season begins varies with local climate, so it's kind of silly for there to be a declaration that a solstice or equinox is the first day, no matter where one lives. In Irish and Germanic lore Summer Solstice is "Midsummer", not the beginning of Summer. In Celtic folklore the festivals are often called "fire festivals" or by similar terminology. I assume this is because bonfires were usually an important part of the festivities. On Imbolc, depending on where one lived (climate at that time of year in the north of Scotland will vary significantly from that in the south of Ireland, for instance), people were less likely to have outdoor bonfires, but fire is still an important part of the festival in the form of hearthfires, candles, and the focus on Brighid, who is a Goddess of the fires of the hearth and smithy and the fires of inspiration (among many other things). Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, there does seem to be some kind of cultural consensus that spring starts on the vernal equinox, summer on the solstice, etc.
And yes, She's associated with a great many things. IIRC, to the Brigantii, She was pretty much Goddess Of Everything In Sight...
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I should have phrased that more clearly. Yes, *now* there is the general agreement in mainstream, American culture that the Solstices and Equinoxes are the official beginning of the season, no matter where you live. But in terms of, say, Gaelic culture, the beginning was marked by local seasonal phenomena. I think it's silly to set the same date for every bioregion, but it is the norm :-) Beannachd Bhrìghde leat - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 22:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's actually an astronomical thing, more than a US cultural thing, but I agree that it's silly. And if you feel you must set a universal date, it seems even sillier to have summer begin at the solstice.
But, as with so many things in this world, they neglected to ask me before making these decisions. And people wonder why the world is in such sorry shape...
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 13:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
  • giggle* :)
I want to thank those that went through and corrected my (horrible) grammar. :) But yeah.. I was just thinking about how.. we can't apply one function to each of the solstices/equinoxes. Some "start" and some are in the "middle" of the seasons they .. represent, I suppose. Although.. now that I think about it... The Solstices seem to mark the middle of the seasons.. and the Equinoxes "start" the seasons. Although I suppose that all depends upon what tradition you are.. or what you believe in. But most of the books I have read seem to coroborate this.. to a certain level. Or am I making any sense at all? :S Disinclination 19:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
If the solstices mark the middle of the seasons and the equinoxes mark the beginning of them, then you only have two seasons. Back when I was ten or twelve, long before I'd even heard of the cross-quarters, I thought it made sense for seasons to begin and end halfway between solstice and equinox. Imagine my surprise to discover that there actually are such holidays, even though not practiced or recognized by most people nowadays.
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 20:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I find it all a bit strange, the dates that our modern beaurocracies have set for when the seasons begin. Midsummer is called midsummer because... it was the middle of summer! And there's a reason why so many May Day traditions talk about that day being the first day of Summer: because that was the traditional beginning of Summer! "Unite and unite, and we will all unite, for Summer is a-comen today". People don't pay much attention to tradition nowadays... Fuzzypeg☻ 00:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't mean for there to be only two seasons. I would think that the other sabbats would begin/mark the middle of the seasons. Disinclination 21:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Candlemas, May Day, Lammas and All Hallows are known as the "Cross-Quarter Days", and are the modern forms of the old Celtic festivals of Imbolc, Beltane, Lughnassadh and Samhain. These are sometimes described as "fire festivals". They fall roughly at mid-points between the solstices and equinoxes (Candlemas is between midwinter and Spring equinox, etc.), although there seems to be no consensus as to how the ancients determined the precise dates. Hence the variety of dates now observed: everyone has their own theory (or uses the modern dates).
The Quarter days (solstices and equinoxes) were a recent addition to the set of sabbats (see the article). These were observed to a greater or lesser extent by the English public: Christmas is the most obvious one; midsummer had a variety of folk observances; the autumn equinox was marked with various odd traditions including the widespread observance of the Devil's nutting day; and spring, I can't remember at the moment... It seems unlikely that these observances were thought of as part of a greater set of 8 festivals until the Bricket Wood coven's innovation (see article). The Quarter days were also observed by English neo-Druids and ceremonial magicians in the 19th and 20th centuries.
The terms "Quarter days" and "Cross-quarter days" come down to us as economic/legal terms, for they were (and still are) rent days or term days on which rates were due and servants were hired. The English and Irish "Quarter Days" were the solstices and equinoxes (roughly); the "Cross-quarter days" were the old Celtic fire festivals. In Scotland they had "Term days", which were the close to the English Cross-quarter days. See Quarter days. Fuzzypeg☻ 02:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry ('Peg?), I trimmed the first 3 words from your text above ("The solstices at")and now it's ok. I just couldn't sleep at night with you calling the crossquarterdays "solstices" (typo, eh?) earrach
Thanks. A bit of verbal diarrhoea, I'm afraid. I was probably thinking "sabbats". Fuzzypeg☻ 03:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I tried to re-write it. Tell me what you guys think? :)

Wiccans, and some Neopagan groups, observe eight festivals, which are commonly referred to as "sabbats".[1] Four of these fall on the solstices and equinoxes, which are known as "quarter days", and the other four fall (approximately) midway between, and are commonly known as "cross-quarter days" or "fire festivals". The "quarter days" are loosely based, or named after, the Germanic festivals, and the "cross-quarter days" are similarily inspired by the Gaelic festivals. However, modern interpretations vary widely, so Wiccan groups may celebrate and conceptualize these festivals in very different ways, dominantly having little in common with the cultural festivals outside of the adopted name. The "quarter days" and the "cross-quarter days" are also referred to as "Minor" and "Major" sabbats, respectively.[2]

It should be noted that exact dates for the sabbats, and the fact that there are 8 of them, is a relatively new concept that did not exist in pagan religions in the past and was popularised by the Wiccan religion. [3]

References in order: Wiccan Veterans waging new war Devon Haynie March 3, 2007, Wicca For The Rest Of Us: The Wheel of the Year/the Sabbats", The Eightfold Wheel of the Year Moonhunter 2003.

Any good? :) Disinclination 19:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks pretty good to me.
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. :) I'll go put it up.. and if anyone has a problem with it, just.. edit it? I suppose. I just wanted to make it a bit clearer to the average reader. Disinclination 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
One query: is Gaelic not a subgroup of Celtic, and would not Celtic be better, including as it does the other inhabitants of the British Isles? I'm not the expert on this, but it looked slightly strange... Fuzzypeg☻ 00:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the term 'Litha'

I am not sure that Litha was invented by Aidan Kelly; it is the Anglo-Saxon name for Midsummer, I thought? Tolkien refers to Aerre Lithe (before midsummer) in one of the Appendices to Lord of the Rings. --yewtree 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the inferrance was to be that Kelly introduced the usage into the Neopagan scene so I wedged that in as a fix. A further reference the Bede source would be good there too. earrach

[edit] More Cleanup

Since the last overhaul on this that I was involved with, I see a certain amount of Neopaganism defaulting to Wicca has crept back in. So, I'm clarifying a few things, more along the lines of what was here after that cleanup. I'm also moving the Moon Sabbats thing here to the talk page, as that has been waiting on a source for many, many months.

Dates of Moon Sabbats
Imbolc: new, crescent, 1st quarter
Beltane: 1st quarter, gibbous, full moon
Lammas: full, disseminating, 3rd quarter
Samhain: 3rd quarter, balsamic, new

Additionally, there's still a lot of OR in this article. Though a lot of it is "common knowledge", there really needs to be more sourcing. I've held off on flagging it, but we have whole sections that are without even a single source. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fire festivals

It's just plain silly that 'fire festival' defaults to 'Wheel of the Year'. I was looking for something about Japan's Katsuyama Sagicho and ended up here in this very Euro article. Alpheus (talk) 04:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - much better to have a disambiguation page that leads to both. Set one up, or I'll do so myself if I can find the article you mention! Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 08:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] 8 Festivals and the connection with Ross Nichols, Druidry etc?

This doesn't really explain why we have these 8 though? I've seen several reports that Gerald Gardners coven was only celebrating the fire festivals/cross quarters at that nudist camp, and the inclusion of the solar festivals/quarters was partly a) to give an excuse for more meetings (& potlucks), and b) after discussion with Ross Nichols, being involved with meso-Druid movements that celebrated those only. Ross Nichols went on to use all 8 as well when forming OBOD, which gave us the 'Wheel of the Year' being used in the Wiccan & Neodruid tradition (to use Isaac Bonewits terms), and so associated with Neopaganism in general. Did Hutton cover this? I know Phillip Carr-Gomm has mentioned it. - 222.154.238.36 (talk) 01:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The reference is clearly given in the article: Fred Lamond, 50 Years of Wicca. As he explains, the Wiccans were celebrating the cross-quarters, but adopted the solstices and equinoxes (while Gardner was away travelling) as obvious seasonal points they could add to their list of celebrations. Lamond surmises that one reason Gardner was happy to accept these additions was because it brought them more in line with the Druid practices of his friend Nichols. And no, I don't believe Hutton mentions this; he seems to assume the 8 festivals was an innovation of Gardner's.
I can't speak for OBOD and why they ended up with eight festivals. Fuzzypeg★ 00:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)