Talk:Western culture

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[edit] Archiving

Moved all but next section to second archive page, it was the only one I saw that was current (besides the last two which were edited by me). If you have something current there move it here. Lycurgus (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Western Culture is Collectivistic??

I have deleted the bit below that suggests that Western Culture is collectivistic.

Most of Western societies have traditionally been, and often keep being, to some degree, socially collective, giving a major importance to social majoritary traditions or tendencies (such as customs, protocols, beliefs or fashion), that often tend to be prescripted over minority or individual ones, especially when hardly divergent, which can at times cause intolerance, prejudices and social exclusion. In general, western cultures tend to emphasise consensus over any kind of minority or individual solution. However, liberal, romantic, socialist and democratic ideas, that have had an important, growing impact in late modern society, have caused an increasing degree of respect and tolerance toward individual differences (most noticeable on racial issue), liberties and opinions, as well as an important support or expectance of originality, that manifests in artistic criteria. Thus, such differences are usually understood as a matter of diversity, rather than as a source of threat or conflict. This sometimes even becomes respect for other cultures and interest for them to be studied and learn from, driving to new Scholastic currents, as well as subcultural and countercultural ones. Much of this respect for difference and individual liberties remain, however, still theoretical, in many ways, among mainstream society, when the individual factor encounters a strong opposition from social costums and consensus, and thus resists to be accepted or understood. This situation, anyways, has tended to change among most progressive sectors of society, as a consequence of the many social and counter-cultural movements that the last decades have come to see, what, to some extent, has influenced mainstream, who is more predisposed to live along with differences.

The reason why I have deleted this is because I learned in college that Western culture is individualistic and here is a link that gives evidence for that: http://www.westerncultureglobal.org/knowledge-individualism.html

--Knowledge-is-power 15:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. It is this Individualism that has helped the Western societies develop at a rapid pace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.108.179.229 (talk) 19:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A little late, but I just realized that the above assertion that Western culture is collectivistic is based on the broader, ambiquous use of "Western" in a Greco-Roman context (West of Persia, not Western Europe.) Western Civilization from 400AD onward was a history based on the rejection of the Roman social system, which was indeed collectivistic, the opposite of egalitarian (and ultimately individualist) principles practiced more by the Celts, Hebrews, or Phoenicians ... all bitter enemies of the Romans. Jcchat66 (talk) 16:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This concept is historical and therefore needs more historical context to understand it

1. I noticed that in this article feudalism + Christianity is taken as more strongly definitive of makes something western than the two more orthodox roots: Athens and Jerusalem, Greek philosophy + Biblical monotheism, both of which were special in the way they applied specialized thinking towards politics and law. I think the traditional definition is best, because it covers more of the things which people call western. Do you have to be feudal or feudal influenced to be Western? 2. I think there is a very helpful extension from the above which could be included in the article: the political philosopher Leo Strauss was fascinated with the Athen + Jerusalem theme and he pointed out that it implied the existence of a "Greater West" including all civilization which had developed from the interplay. Specifically, what he meant to include were the Jewish and Moslem philosophers of the Middle Ages, but of course by extension he is saying that the rest of the world is also becoming more westernized by such things as Marxism or Capitalism. And indeed the Middle Ages was something peculiar to the whole Greater West - which is why the curent article's emphasis on feudalism etc is not entirely wrong, just in the wrong order. Comments?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A proposal draft

I would like to propose the following as the new introductory section. I do not see it as good enough yet, in the sense that the introduction should not be this long. Sections can be broken out...

Western culture or Western civilization are terms which are used to refer to cultures of European origin, in contrast to "Eastern" or "Oriental" cultures. It originated as a way of describing what was different about the Graeco-Roman cultures in contrast to the older civilizations of Western Asia.
These terms are used very broadly to refer to heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, religious beliefs, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies. Specifically, the term most often implies...
The East–West contrast is sometimes criticized as relativistic and arbitrary.[1][2][3] Indeed, by definition, the contrast between Western and non-Western things must change as the peoples being contrasted change throughout their history.
The East-West contrast is also criticized for being too poorly defined to be useful. With the advent of increasing globalism, it has recently become more difficult to determine which individuals fit into which category. In some contexts the term "western" is now avoided, where it was once commonplace, or it has been transformed or clarified to fit more precise uses.
However, though it is directly descendent from academic Orientalism and Occidentalism, and other now questioned traditions, the "East–West" distinction arguably remains a changing but useful means of identifying important cultural similarities and differences — both within an increasingly larger concept of local region, as well as with regard to increasingly familiar "alien" cultures.

...I believe the following should be broken off into other sections, if it is not already being covered. Indeed the article deserves historical sections, to show how the term has changed over time. I would also contend that it is wrong to say that the West-East contrast during the Cold War has nothing to do with what many people mean by "Western Culture". It is often said in Russia and outside Russia that Russian communism owed a lot to what the people were used to, what they supposedly needed, under the Tsar...

During the Cold War, the West–East contrast became synonymous with the competing governments of the United States and the Soviet Union and their allies, respectively, although the nature of that contrast is not in any way based on the distinction between Eastern and Western cultures. Nonetheless "westernization" was a persistent theme of the Russian Empire and through its influence and that of the Soviet Union and its Eastern European client states these regions have been incorporated into "the west" albeit as a periphery or marchland. Since it also includes virtually all of the western hemisphere not in Africa as well as the Anzac countries, it is the geographically most extensive culture on the planet. As the bearer of science and the accompanying revolutions of technology, thought, and values over the last 500 years it is the dominant human culture at this time of global cultural integration and thus has established itself as a basal element of human civilization with which it is sometimes chauvinistically confused.
The concept of Western culture is generally linked to the classical definition of Western world. In this definition, Western culture is the set of literary, scientific, artistic and philosophical principles which set it apart from other civilizations. It applies to countries whose history is strongly marked by Western European immigration or settlement, and is not restricted to Western Europe. Much of this set of traditions and knowledge is collected in the Western canon.[4] Various uses of the concept of Western culture have included, rightly or wrongly, critiques of American culture, materialism, industrialism, capitalism, commercialism, hedonism, imperialism, communism, Nazism, fascism, racism or modernism.
Other tendencies that define modern Western societies are the existence of political pluralism, prominent subcultures or countercultures (such as New Age movements), increasing cultural syncretism resulting from globalization and human migration.

Comments please.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

In the ¶ above starting with "During the cold war .." I authored the text beginning with "Nonetheless .." to the end of that ¶ It's true that the start sentence doesn't quite match the scope of the sequel. The first sentence might be modified reflect the particular usage of 'east-west' ... Actually no, that's wrong. The entire paragraph is fine as is. It's placement in the overall page can of course change if someone wants to put effort into a improved structure of the page. Perhaps a much shorter lede with it going into a "semantics" § or whatever. 74.78.162.229 (talk) 02:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that many such comments can be better fitted if we put in some sections on the different historically relative ways the term is used. The problem is that even though the terminology has evolved over many centuries, ALL of those uses are still known and used when referring to particular periods. There is an Origins section, but it seems like a collection of notes so far. I think the main periods are as follows...
1. The East-West concept has its origins in the contrast between the Graeco-Roman world and Asia. Even within classical times however, the Greek speaking world was being seen as increasingly part of the Eastern world world which it had effectively ruled since Alexander.
2. In late Roman times there was an official split between the Eastern and Western empires - the East being substantially outside of Europe although ruled from Greece. Hence Byzantine Greeks like their Asian subjects in the lands which eventually took up Islam, contrasted themselves collectively with the Frankish and Catholic West, which was, not unlike in Classical times, seen as a less civilized, more barbarous area, run by smaller scale individualists rather than a great empire.
3. With the increasing importance of Islam in Asia in the Middle Ages, the Greek, Slavic and Orthodox sphere of influence starts to be seen as either Western or Eastern, depending upon the context.
4. In the 20th century a large part of the Orthodox world became the Soviet world. Once again old patterns were often seen to be prevailing: a more centralized and imperial East, contrasted to the capitalistic and decadent West.
5. In the aftermath of the cold war, it looked like the East-West distinction might disappear as the world became increasingly homogeneous, but signs are that East-West distinctions are making a comeback. This is firstly because the Russian government has taken the decision to emphasize their distinction from the West, represented by NATO and the EU, and the historical roots of this difference, as something to be encouraged. Secondly, September the 11th, Al Qaeda, and the War against Terror, led to new contrasts being made between the West, with its emphasis on freedom, and the Islamic East on the one hand; and between what some saw as Western imperialism versus traditional cultures on the other hand.