Talk:West Country dialects

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Why the capital A in Accent in the title of this artilce? Michael Hardy 01:22, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Accent?

The title of this article should really be "West Country dialect", not "accent".

No the article title is correct, because it is about the accent not the dialect (both of which are correct). An accent is the way words are pronounced, a dialect is the words that are used. Thryduulf 14:59, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Then what is this: "In various districts there are also distinct grammatical and syntactical differences"? Looks like a list of dialectal features to me! 146.176.61.41
I'd agree with that. Votes for retitling it anyone? MacRusgail 19:14, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Count me in. Over half the article is about the language used, not the accent. 82.36.65.161 00:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yo Splash! This is a serious entry is it? This one isn't largely a joke? Come spend a weekend with us in Englands beautiful west, then you'll see where the joke lies. Armando aug16 2005

[edit] Moved to dialect

I have moved this page to "West Country dialects", as I believe this is where it belongs. I have added further information on literature and history, its relationship to Saxon dialects, and also mention the curious fact that in some circumstances it is closer to Standard German than Standard English is. In other words, I think that these dialects are worth far more attention, particular in terms of vocabulary, and not just as some comedy accent. I believe the English neglect the importance of their dialects when they see them merely as objects of derision, and "corruptions" of RP.--MacRusgail 13:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terminal "R"

The article talks about the "L" frequently added to words in the dialect. Is there any further info on the origin of the "R" found at the end of "my loveR"? Its one of the most obvious instances of dialect. Is this also a potential relic of West Anglo Saxon or Germanic routes? Any ideas? - (Nosh unsigned)

I think you can find info under rhoticism. --MacRusgail 20:12, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Zeaxysch

Is anyone here interested in Zeaxysch? E-mail me at Nickxylas AT wmconnect DOT com if you share my interest.

I'm not sure if Zeaxysch belongs on this page or not, it's something slightly different. If it does get a mention here, it should be brief like that of West Saxon. --MacRusgail 13:18, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I have moved the Zeaxysch section to here. As a conlang, it is arguable if it belongs here or not, and seems to be beginning to overdominate the article. The examples are also somewhat odd, and the vocab section is badly laid out. --MacRusgail 17:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zeaxysch

In 2005, a book entitled Zeaxysch Vor To-dai: A Guide To New West Saxon (ISBN 1897999607), written by Robert Craig, was published by Joseph Biddulph Publishers. Zeaxysch is a "constructed" language (cf. Cornish) which draws heavily on Western dialect, Middle English,and the West Saxon form of old English, but adds a "purified" orthography which reintroduces the Old English letter "þ" and uses the letter "w" purely as a vowel. Reversing the usual English practice "y" is used for the vowel and "i" for the consonant ("yogh").Zeaxysch orthography also uses some unusual letter combinations, such as "vp" to replace "w" (based on the visual similarity of the letter "p" to the Anglo-Saxon rune "wynn", which has the same phonetic value as "w"), "cg" to replace "ch", and "zgh" (pronounced like the French "j" or the "g" in beige) to replace "sh" initially. This "conlang" has attracted some academic interest among Wessex regionalist groups, but there are at present no serious proposals formally to adopt it as a spoken or written language.

examples: aspirates: rhode/road, rhyng/ring; lhand/land, lhowd/loud; phat/what, phare/where.

Dost zeo en? Phare be en* to? Er be comycal. Er be o zyder drynker, er be. - Byst rhyit?

translation: Do you see him? Where is he? He is strange. He is a cider drinker. - Are you right?

( *grammatically,"er")

some vocabulary: how/how.snovp/snow.cnovp/know.cnovped/knew.vpater/water.vpycch/witch.phych/which.vader/father. ynowih/enough.morihen/morning.zghyb/ship.o/a.on/an.an/on.zbeke/speak.zbeche/speech.iate/gate.bparty/party. arelych/early.dailych/daily.iefve/give.teche/teach.teched/taught.cgangie/change(noun).cgangiy/change(verb).vort/until.vur/far.vermer/farmer.zeo/see.zum/some.zun/son.zunne/sun.gode/good.vote/foot. aien/again.aiense/against.howzen/houses.gurt/large.vpol/well.vpul/will.iyss/yes.iede/went.vpusch/wish.jhuggi/judge(noun).jhuggiy/judge(verb).zeoed/saw.vpurch/work.vorch/fork.kebe/keep.kebed/kept. lhufve/love.lhove/loaf.lhofve/praise.ac/but.vpordanlyst/glossary.vpordanboke/dictionary. zot/sat.zyve/scythe.vacch/thatch.bufve/above.cuss/kiss.zdur/star.ete/eat.efven/indeed. eme/uncle.eaveruchone/everyone.garse/grass.urn/run.ufvel/evil.urthlore/geology. vysch/fish(noun).vyschy/fish(verb).vyschyi/fishy(adjective).vpwd/wood(noun).vpwdyi/woody(adjective).vpeod/weed(noun).vpeody/weed(verb).vpeodyi/weedy(adjective).tothe/tooth.clomb/climbed.vocch/fetched.zghoan/shoes.zghy/pair of shoes.zghene/beautiful.umb/around,about.urned/ran.unvaier/ugly.vol/full.vole/foal.vorst/frost. vreond/friend.vpulvol/wilful.vpolc/cloud.bleo/complexion.byst/thou art.y/me.chom/I am.chafve/I have.ie,e/you(subject).eovp,eo/you(object).drang/throng.drasch/thresh.dred/thread.dreo/three.hys/his,its.hyt/it.hafve/have,has.

[edit] Dorset, Gloucestershire, Bristol

I'm interested to know why these three were left out of the list in the introductory section. Dorset is mentioned at some length in the article itself. Can anyone comment?

If nobody comes up with an argument against, I may add them into the area covered by West Country dialect. Chris Jefferies 22:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

All three are mentioned within the article, and should be IMO. The only other thing is that the eastern boundaries of the West Country are not well defined, and some folk wouldn't include the two counties you mention. As for Bristol, it is a large city, and these nearly always have different dialects to the rural hinterland. --MacRusgail 19:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I made the changes, taking MacRusgail's comments into account. In particular I've noted that the northern and eastern limits of the area are ill-defined. It's true that the Bristol accent is different from the surrounding rural areas, but it's still a clearly West Country dialect sharing many of the same local words, phrases, accent, and constructions. Chris Jefferies 17:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Studies show...

There's a small paragraph about studies into trustworthy accents. Should that have a cited source? Triangl 11:56 (BST)



[edit] West Country dialects and counties

Can it be proven that some of the words listed as north Somerset, Devon etc actually erive from that specific area? In Wiltshire "chuggy pig" is the name given to woodlice, "cuss" is used in the same way in black patois as it is in north Somerset apparently. Hmmmm. "Bulling" is a term we actually learnt in science, and farmers in nationwide commonly use the term. Can it really be proven to derive from that specific area? To say "oooh arrr" comes from Devon is ridiculous. I think that section needs a good clear up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nimrod379 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Language is notoriously mobile, and if we were to be really pedantic, I suppose we could argue that some of these words originate in Normandy, France, Saxony, the Netherlands, Rome etc... or the Steppes long before that!!! "Oo ar!", I suppose is probably more linked with Somerset in the popular mind, thanks largely to the Worzels. Many dialects share words that are not found in national standards, e.g. "ax"/"axe" for "ask". That is found in many dialects of English... you can hear it in the songs of Bob Marley, and you can find it in medieval English literature. In fact, it's a form which can be traced back to Anglo-Saxon quite nicely. --MacRusgail 17:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


Well that is what I am trying to say - if you are saying that they can be traced back to the Steppes (!), then why limit saying that it originates from Somerset? Just because "oo ar" has entered common popular consciousness thanks to the Wurzels, it doesn't mean that the term originated with them. Surely to list the words using specific evidence in the form of the first recorded usage of that word or phrase is the best way, otherwise list the word or phrase "West country". It is an archaic publication, but you may be interested in reading (if you havn't already) "Wilkinson Sherren's The Wessex of Romance (London: Chapman & Hall, 1902)" - an extract is here: http://www.yale.edu/hardysoc/Resources/glossary.htm --Nimrod379 23:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The counties, or parts of counties, listed next to the vocabulary section seem to me to be totally ridiculous. The author is obviously from northern Somerset and believes these terms to be exclusive to his locality, which is very far from true. These counties have to be either clarified or removed from the glossary. What kind of permission does one need to go ahead and do this?

The mentions of the interjection "Oo arr" also make me cringe, as nobody actually says this and I believe it to be a total misunderstanding of West Country English phonetics. There is the interjection "Oh ahh!" which is an older generation equivalent of the modern "Ahh right!". My grandparents use this, though I think younger people avoid it because it sounds like the "Oo arr" of stereotype.CFear 01:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Less emphasis on German, more on Anglo-Saxon

It's a bit misleading to emphasize the connections between West Country speech and German, when the latter resemblance is due to the retention of Germanic linguistic features absent from Standard English. For example, the a- prefix in "If I'd a-know'd " is really Anglo-Saxon ge (pronounced "ye") which serves the same purpose as modern German ge (pronounced with a hard g). The connections between Westcountry speech and German are much more apparent when one knows the Anglo-Saxon connections. --Saforrest 01:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The point is not to claim that these dialects derive from Hochdeutsch, but rather that what is ridiculed in English dialect, can sometimes have a high register in German e.g. "I been" or "I ken"--MacRusgail 17:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
"Ich bin" is the verb to be in the present tense, not the past tense as in "I been", but rather as in "I be". This should be made clear on the page. We could also explore the link between the Anglo-Saxon "unc" ("we" for only two people, not more) and the use of "us" as the subject. Subsequently, when referring to only two people, a phrase like "Us is going" is not historically without precedent. CFear 00:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Britain this and that

There are a number of references to "throughout Britain" etc. I can say straight off that this is not true. There is increasing prestige to a Welsh accent, and in Scotland regional accents and dialects have much more dignity than south of the Border IMHO.--MacRusgail 12:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with this, at least partly. In Wales and Scotland in recent years there has grown a greater sense of separate and/or individual ethnic and political identity. Along with this comes the fear of sounding "too English" with respect to Received Pronunciation. As a parallel to this there is also the case that in England there is also the fear of sounding "too posh", however the fundamental difference is that in England this is class-related, which I would say reinforces the notion of regional accents being associated with the lower class. CFear 00:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edit

In the vocab section I took out some of the area labels, because they seemed too specific. ProfPirate 02:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish in Somerset

The article says that there is evidence for Irish settlement "especially in Somerset". There is evidence for settlement in Devon and Cornwall but what evidence is there for Somerset? 12:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The settlement of Beckory derives its name from Becc Eriu (Beag Eire) meaning Little Ireland. This is one of the few Gaelic names south of Scotland, or Gwynedd.--MacRusgail 17:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] other influences

Are there any dialectal words/grammar with influences in other languages (have brythonic and anglo-saxon/germanic (obv))? BLM86.158.135.224 BLM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.135.224 (talk) 20:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cornish paragraph

Made some (minor) changes here, I think making is more understandable/ less potentially misleading.

  • Have avoided whole what is a monoglot issue (Is someone who got a D at french GCSE in school bilingual?) by giving a summary af when it likely stopped being used, rather than having to put in a huge amount of (for the basis of the article) irrelevent information and definition to basically let the reader know the same thing.

Beware that there are a lot of myths/misunderstandings/different interpretations of 'who was the last cornish speaker?' The fact is we don't really know, but to explain what we Do know in an honest and clear manner would take too long in an article which is, after all, about english not cornish.

  • Put in what I think is the important bit for this article which is words being adopted by english (dialect) speakers I put a plural dialect because of industry related (fishing) usage, west penwith and other cases. Don't know if this was really ness.
  • Slightly reworded prayer book rebellion passage, just to make it flow & be less confusing, same info in it.

BLM 86.158.135.224

[edit] Devon pronunciation of "Bath"

According to "The Linguistic Dialect of England" by Widdowson, there were still large areas of Devon that said "bath" with the short a, as is used in Northern England and Scotland, in the 1960s. Not even the West Country /a:/ but the flat /a/. Is this still used anymore? Perhaps, this is worth a mention? Epa101 (talk) 14:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)