Talk:West Bank/Archive 1

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Is the very term "West Bank" POV?

The very existence of this page under this title is in violation of the principles of "Neutral point of view". Only pro-Arab people generally refer to this area as "the West Bank". Pro-Israel terminology is "Judea and Samaria". How to handle this I can't recommend.

In Britain, this area is generally (in fact, almost always) called the West Bank. The CIA, which few people would describe as "pro-Arab", calls it the West Bank. I think this has to be considered the neutral term in English. --Zundark, 2002 Jan 5
This is incorrect. Not only "pro-Arab" people refer to this territory as the West Bank. Many people who are pro-Israel nonetheless do not use the terms "Judea" and "Samaria", as these terms are often used by the right-wing nationalists; to them these names imply that every inch of land in this area is part of the Biblical land of Israel, and therefore can never be negotiated with. You statements reveals not only a disagreement with the Arab position (which I share), but a strong disagreement against Jews who are not sympathetic to the right-wing of the Israeli political spectrum. Not all Zionists (Jews or gentiles) support the Likud or other rightist parties. (I think they have some good points, but I am more to the left of their positions.) RK

Not everyone who is to your right is a "right-wing nationalist", though I am probably more sympathetic to Likud than you (though, as an American, I cannot vote for any Israeli party). I still think that "West Bank" cannot be termed a neutral term, even if "Judea-Samaria" is a "right-wing nationalist" term.

Perhaps we need an article on Middle East political terminology. Often the name of something carries a connotation. For example, the terms "gay rights" and "woman's right to choose" inherently connote positions of favoring certain legal rights for homosexual citizens and the legal right for a woman to have a voluntary abortion.

I think the Arab side has won a propaganda victory that will be exceedingly hard for Israel to reverse. Getting the US media to refer to Arab separatists in Israel as "Palestinians" is not really neutral, in my opinion. The term itself implies that only Arab residents of historical Palestine are its legitimate claimants, and that Jewish residents of Palestine are "non-Palestinian" and hence illegitmate "occupiers" of the land.

Without really neutral terminology, there is no way to discuss the situation without conceding points that must not be conceded.

My personal analysis of all statements by all sides leads me to believe that the various Arab power groups frankly intend to wipe out Israel altogether. I agree with the author of the "temporary measure" article (although I also agree with Larry that its title at least is not NPOV). The strategy of land for peace is one that must inevitably result in Israel losing all its land.

This is not to say that I consider one side "right" and the other "wrong." Although both I and my church are pro-Israel, neither I nor my church are anti-Arab or anti-Islamic. I respect Islam (the religion) and esteem Islamic culture.

I would like to see some sort of peaceful co-existence of Jews and Muslims in the Middle East. I do not have a formula to propose, however.

My only suggestion is that the religious leaders meet in good faith to work out the historical and theological issues, and that the politicians respect whatever agreement the religious leaders can work out. This may sound naive, but I am optimistic since East and West Germany managed to reconcile. Perhaps if North and South Korea can reconcile, peace in the Middle East will seem more attainable. -- Ed Poor

I think West Bank is a preferable term to "Judaea and Samaria", for three reasons:

  1. Most people are familiar with the term "West Bank", since that's the term the Western media uses. Few people, other than Jews and Israelis, know what "Judaea and Samaria" means. "West Bank" is the ordinary term in English for this place.
  2. People on both sides of the fence use the term "West Bank" since (as RK points out) you'll find some pro-Israel people using it. No one on the pro-Arab side will use the term "Judaea and Samaria".
  3. "West Bank" is a neutral geographical term -- the West Bank of the Jordan river. "Judaea and Samaria" is suggestive of Jewish/Israeli claims to the area.

More generally, I think an article on terminology would be useful. However, I think we need to use the normal terms for these things -- the terms most English-speakers will be expecting. Otherwise, we'll just confuse the reader. And as to terms such as "Palestinian", whatever its conontations, there really is no alternative that conveys the same meaning. -- SJK

I just wanted to add that I am pro-Israel, and I refer to land in question as the "West Bank". In my Jewish School, our Modern Zionism course also refers to it as the "West Bank". Thus, that term is not only used by pro-Arab people. However, there should be a note in the article stating that small minority of pro-Israeli(mostly ultra-orthodax) people refer to it as, "Judaea and Samaria".

I put in a lot of changes. While people seem to be paying lip service to NPOV, etc., what seems to be happening is that they are shuffling for territory so that they can give equal (if not more) space to their own opinions. How appropriate, given the subject matter.

On the other hand, whatever your views are, it is extremely important in such a contentious article to at least get the BASIC FACTS right. These include geography (the borders are clearcut!), history (the history belongs in Israel/Palestine prior to 1949, since the West Bank has such artificial boundaries based on an armistice agreement--if the agreement were signed the next day, the boundaries would have been different), nomenclature (Judea and Samaria do not equal the West Bank. They are names for geographical regions of which the West Bank is part. However, the Israeli city of Beit Shemesh is also Judea and Zichron Yaakov is also Samaria, while the Palestinian town of Jenin is part of the Jezreel Valley), etc. Only once the facts and definitions are accurate can we begin any discussion of politics, for whatever side. Danny

Was that Danny? Anyway, thanks for pointing out my errors. I hope you can fix the article without reverting: the section on Arab and Israeli views is okay, I trust. Ed Poor, Thursday, June 20, 2002
Don't be too trusting. It is such an oversimplification, that it is really not very valuable. You cannot pigeonhole the views in that way--what is Sharon's view, for example? He has agreed to the idea of a Palestinian state in principle and actually participated in a withdrawal from land (1982, he was Defense Minister, when Israel withdrew from the Sinai, and he commanded the soldiers that removed the settlers). Positions generally change based on current events. One day after a bombing, most people in Israel will refuse to even accept the notion of a Palestinian state. One day after a concilliatory speech by Arafat, 60% of Israelis will agree to divide Jerusalem. By the way, the same is true of Palestinians. In other words, the positions themselves are in flux, which is nowhere recognized in the article as it stands. Danny
Hmm... this isn't really related, but the only way in which Palestinians have been known to celebrate peace deals recently, is by freeing Hamas guys from jail. --Uriyan
No, it isn't really related ... or accurate either. The releases made upon reaching peace deals were by Israelis as part of the peace deals (or other arrangements). Arafat's supposed "revolving door policy" in prisons has nothing to do with peace deals with Israel.Danny
I actually meant the "cease fires" during the recent Intifada ("recently" = last 21 months). Of course, when Hammas guys are freed, a cease-fire turns into a situation when Israelis cease and Palestinians fire. --Uriyan

As for the Jordan River, the West Bank only occupies two-thirds of the Bank of the Jordan River running from the Sea of Galilee. The rest was part of Israel's border with Jordan since independence. The West Bank is also nowhere near the northern part of the Jordan River, above the Sea of Galilee. If anything, it formed part of the Israeli border with Syria till 1967.

I thank you both, Danny and Uriyan, for your attention to this article. Danny, might I persuade you to enumerate some of the more popular viewpoints on the region's disposition? You seem to have command of the specifics such as division of Jerusalem that I glossed over. (I note with pride that my Arab POV paragraph survived the last few revisions :-) Ed Poor, Thursday, June 20, 2002

Thanks for the map, DanKeshet. I'm looking at http://www.passia.org for a West Bank map that shows its borders. I'd like a map that shows the West Bank's border with Jordan, Syria, Lebanon & Israel proper -- plus any "natural geographic" boundaries such as rivers, lakes or mountain ranges. Ed Poor, Friday, June 21, 2002 Is the West Bank of 2002 the same as the large pink area between Israel, the Jordan River and the Dead Sea in [1]?

Yes, it is. But note that there's no "Israel" on the map. Those peace-loving Arabs... --Uriyan

--- As I noted in the article, the terms Judea and Samaria are primarily geographical: Samaria is less mountainous than Judah and of a slightly different geological composition. (I can go on and on about how this was reflected in the ancient history of the region due to resulting economic differences, populations, etc., but I will not at this point.) In fact, both terms also refer to territories that constituted part of pre-1967 Israel, such as the corrdidor leading to Jerusalem, the foothills surrounding Beit Guvrin, the southern Judean Desert (Judah), and the eastern strip of foothills along the coastal strip, including the town of Zichron Yaakov (Samaria). Of course, Israelis realize that the term "Judea and Samaria" refers to the West Bank, but the Hebrew equivalent of ha-Gadah ha-Ma'aravit is simply a translation of the English term, with no historical or geographical meaning prior to 1948. Even Israelis who support total withdrawal from the Territories would call the areas either Judea or Samaria, when referring to them historically or geographically--political exigencies aside, those are the Hebrew names for the region. Anecdotally, I remember watching the newscast in the early 1980s, when the Israeli government decided officially that the territories would be called Judea and Samaria in all official broadcasts (there was only one TV station at the time and four official radio stations). The snicker on the newscaster's face was obvious to everyone. The decision has since been ignored. Danny

the uncritical use of "diputed territories" is a violation of NPOV, since it follows the Israeli policy to veil the fact of occupation. it is a purely Israeli euphemism. --Elian

Thank you for responding so quickly (my version was up less than 2 hours). I will refrain from further edits until you have had a chance to see, comment on and fix any problems you see. --Ed Poor
I was present by chance ;-) I also reverted your move of "Palestinian refugee" as I consider the Arab superfluous. You should be aware that it is solely Israeli policy to avoid speaking of Palestinians ("there are no Palestinians" - Golda Meir) and instead use the general term Arabs. By using the term "Arab" or "Arab nationalist" for Palestinians, you already bowed to the Israeli position and don't write neutral anymore. --Elian

I guess this goes back to the question of terms: what is a "Palestinian"?

  • a member of a Middle-eastern ethnic group plainly distinct from other ethnic groups in the region (like "Kurd")
  • a member of a distinct "race" (?)
  • any Arab residing in what the ancient Romans called Palestine = "Palestinian Arab"
  • an arbitrarily designated group invented by Arab leaders to delegitimize Israel and prevent the creation of a Jewish homeland

Sorry to put it in such blunt terms, but I think that without a clear definition of "Palestinian" the pages elian, uri and ed have been working on will never meet the Wikipedia's standard of "neutral".

I'm not going to revert any of your changes, Elian, since I value our working relationship more than the article. --Ed Poor

A palestinian is for me everyone who answers my question "inta meen wayn?" (where are you from?) with "Ana filasteeni" (I am Palestinian). I suppose some 100% of the people in Westbank and Gaza (excluding Israeli settlers) would answer thusly (or "ana filastiniyyeh" for women). Some 50% of the people in Jordan may answer similarly. about 8 million people over the world will say this, too and add "I am Palestinian refugee". Is this answer clear enough? --Elian

Elian is completely correct. I'll go further and say that it is quite objectionable to question the right of the Palestinians to define themselves, just as all other groups have the right to define themselves. (This doesn't concern the different issue of the historical meanings of the word, which is a research topic I will write about on Palestinian soon.) Ed, do you try to argue with other groups about who they should accept as members, such as Jews for example? The fact is that, today in 2003, everyone including Ed knows immediately what is meant whenever someone says "the Palestinians". If you don't like it, get over it. --Zero 08:42, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The page has recently been protected I'd like to ask, why? And furthermore, I would like to ask for an explanation from 81 and Viajero as to why you have deleted my edits without providing a reason. You have yet to give any reason, much less one showing why you think they are inaccurate, off topic or lacking in substance. Please do so before you revert them. Leumi 02:03, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

  • Why do you remove the statement that "West Bank" excludes Gaza? The definition is wrong without that.
  • That Israeli maps often include WB&G in "Israel" is a plain fact and I've even seen examples on Israeli government web sites. Its relevance is also obvious.
  • I don't see any problem in mentioning that Jordan occupied the WB in 1948.
  • If the Saudi proposal is mentioned at all (doubtful for this page as it belongs elsewhere) it is not ok to put arguments for or against it. Leumi's addition there is totally unacceptable.
--Zero 08:42, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)
First, I did not put in the original argument against the Saudi proposal. I don't think it should be part of the page either, but I didn't touch it. Glad we agree there. Second, if we add that it refers to the area occupied by Jordan in 48, we don't need to include excludes the Gaza Strip. Second, I see no problem in including your second point within it. Lastly, if 81, I believe his name is Anon, would please stop reverting all my edits on the page, I would appreciate it. If he objects to specific parts if he would just point them out and focus on that, that would be preferable. Thankyou. Leumi 21:12, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'll just record the results of a search for "Cisjordan" in the Times (London) electronic archive, which includes the full text of that newspaper from 1785 to 1985. The word appears only 4 times in total. A 1939 article and a letter in 1948 refer to "Transjordan and Cis-Jordan Palestine". In that case "Cis-Jordan" not being used as a name but rather as a qualifier on the name "Palestine". In 1950 there is an op-ed piece that uses "Cis-Jordan" as a name, clearly referring to the whole region west of the Jordan River. In 1975 there is an article quoting Sadat in which he uses "cis-Jordan" as a name for the West Bank. That's all. By way of comparison, "Transjordan" appears 2263 times (starting in 1921) and "Palestine" appears 55927 times (starting in 1789). --Zero 08:50, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I would just like to add the Hebrew terms in Hebrew script to this article: הגדה המערבית and יו״ש Hippietrail 13:17, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Palestinian Refugees

Before you proceed to delete my entry again, perhaps you could specify what part of it in your opinion constitutes a POV, and prove that it has no factual basis. What part do you object to? That the majority are refugees, or that they fled voluntarily? Just because certain facts speak in Israel's favour in no way impairs their status as facts which can safely be included in a NPOV article. LoveOfFate 18:24, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Same reply as in Talk:Gaza Strip. Everyone knows that "voluntary" is an opinion and not a fact. Your opinions are of no interest here. --Zero 05:50, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A bit of rewriting

I rewrote the intro a bit. It's a sensitive issue, so I'm sure something about it will be controversial. I've tried to equally offend both sides though. =]

  • Moved Judea and Samaria and Cisjordan down a bit, as they're not very commonly used in English, especially compared to West Bank. They should be noted, but not many people are going to be expecting this article under one of those names and surprised by West Bank, which is pretty much the standard English name for the area.
  • Described the territory as the land west of the River Jordan annexed by Jordan in 1949. An alternate description is "the territory formerly part of Jordan captured by Israel in the 1967 war", but I like the 1949 explanation better because it's more definitional—the West Bank really came into being as an entity in 1949, with its western border defined by the cease-fire line.
  • Gave a bit of information on the dispute about whether East Jerusalem is in the West Bank or not. By the definition above, it is. Israel says it isn't. Most Arabs say it is. Most of the negotiations treat it de facto like it isn't, since the Jerusalem issue is negotiated separately from the rest of the West Bank.
  • Clarified (hopefully) some wording and such.

--Delirium 06:19, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC).

Palestine / فلسطین

The West Bank is supposed to be a large part of future free Palestine. UN dicided this in 1947, no government in the world recognizes the israeli occupation, and Israel it self has not anexed it. There should not be any doubt that the West Bank and Ghaza are palestinian territories, and will never be israeli. — 129.241.139.9, 18:29, Sep 12, 2004

Legal theories

IMHO the legal theory, why to use the term "occupied" is rather clear, and (AFAIK etc) the majority POV. But to let the reader learn more about other POVs, it should be pointed out under which legal theory, another status is claimed, and what this status is.

The term "disputed" doesn't clarify much, as it only implies, that there are more than one interpretations, but doesn't state the interpretations.

When doing (a very shallow) web search for sources, for example I stumbled about an argument that Israel is adminstrating these areas in place of the fallen Ottoman empire. If this is really claimed as a signifant POV, it should be mentioned.

Pjacobi 14:02, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)


I believe the wikipedia should reflect humanities perspective on the world not a pro-anyone view and the corresponding terminology. Delete all "West Bank" and similar disputed territory links and replace with "Disputed Territory". Using the term disputed territory has its own risks (maybe use UN recognition?). Give a lat long description (or topographical map) of the area and a description of the disputing parties and their impact on aboriginal populations, flora and fauna and that's it. Let the reader draw their own conclusions. Posting anything else is giving a mouthpiece for the disputing parties. History is written by it's survivors...

The Occupied Territories are known as the Occupied Territories because that is their legal status and the phrase used by the UN. The Israeli government is militarily occupying territory that is not within the internationally recognized borders of Israel - hence, "Occupied Territories". It is an Israeli propaganda tactic to refer to extraterritorial areas under Israeli military control as "disputed territories" so as to semantically minimize their militant aggression for Jewish settlement Lebensraum. Those who believe that Israel should annex additional Arab land prefer to regard the territories as "disputed" rather than "occupied" because "occupation" is legally temporary whereas "disputed" territories may someday be absorbed by Israeli expansion. Even the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in June 2004 that the territories are held by Israel through "belligerent occupation". The term Occupied Territories is legitimate and correct in a legal sense of international law. "Disputed territory" is POV. Alberuni 20:34, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, Alberuni. If Israel uses the term disputed territories in a special sense, than the Arab-Israeli conflict series of articles should note this special usage. Also, the point of view of the UN should be given prominence, like:

  • According to the United Nations, the West Bank is an "occupied territory" under international law. The Israeli Supreme Court began using the term "belligerent occupation" in June 2004.
  • A gradually shrinking remnant of advocates continue to protest the designation "occupied territory" on the grounds that Israel seized the area from Jordan, which (Israel claims) had no right to them in the first place.

We should definitely mention the UN's point of view, along with other prominent parties who agree with it. After that, we have two choices: (A) mention other POV which disagrees with the UN; or (B) omit dissenting POV completely. --Uncle Ed 14:45, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni has not cleared anything up; rather, he has just stated his highly POV opinion, mixed with the typically inflammatory rhetoric of anti-Israel activitists, who lace their screeds with Nazi terminology in a propagandistic attempt to equate Israel with Nazi Germany. In fact the Disputed territories are not "Occupied territories" under International law, particularly the 4th Geneva convention, and most particularly since the Oslo accords. [2] Moreover United Nations General Assembly resolutions do not create International law. Alberuni's statements about the Israeli Supreme Court are also not relevant, since the Israeli Supreme Court does not decide Israeli policy, nor did it rule on the relevant issues. Here, in fact, is a position paper from the Israeli government on the topic: [3] Jayjg 04:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Can you, at this point, please answer my original question: If not occupied territories, what is the legal status of these terroritories. Of course disputed isn't an answer at all, as it only claims that there a different views about the legal status. --Pjacobi 10:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The legal status of them confusing and disputed, which is why "disputed" is the best term. There are a number of legal arguments essentially stating that Israel, under the 4th Geneva convertion, cannot be an occupying power in any of Palestine (though it could be so in, for example, Lebanon). There is a further complication that much of the territories are under Palestinian administrative rule. International law is itself a complicated thing, and there has been no "Supreme Court" decision on the ultimate legal status of the territories; in fact, it would be difficult to imagine a mechanism for this to happen. Ultimately borders are decided by legal treaties between sovereign nations, not by courts. Jayjg 14:43, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The territories are not considered merely "disputed" by anyone except those with the POV of militant Israelis who hope to annex more Arab land to the Jewish state. To the rest of the world, the territories are recognized as Occupied Territories because they are militarily occupied by Israel even though Israel has no legal claim to the land. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic to see the hypocrisy and self-serving mendacity of Zionists decrying the legitimacy of UN territorial dispute adjudication when it was the UN that created the modern state of Israel in the first place. Alberuni 15:26, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
International law doesn't agree with you, and the U.N. certainly did not create Israel; rather, the inhabitants of Israel created the country in an act of auto-emancipation. The U.N. took a vote, but did nothing at all to support the results of that vote, which only strengthens the point that G.A. resolutions are non-binding and non-enforcable. In addition, I find it difficult to reconcile your often reasonable article edits with your highly combative, propagandistic, and often insulting Talk: comments. Why not just deal with the issues themselves, instead of promoting your beliefs about the moral failings and political beliefs of the editors who disagree with you? Jayjg 16:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"If the shoe fits, wear it." I don't seem to have as much difficulty as some people editing objectively and avoiding the injection of my personal POV into Wikipedia articles. Talk pages are the place to discuss the propagandistic biases of articles. Alberuni 16:24, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is not a shoe store or cobbler's shop. You have definitely gotten better at avoiding blatant POV, particularly compared to your earlier edits. Talk pages are indeed the place to discuss the propagandistic biases of articles, but not the place to discuss your beliefs about the moral failings and political beliefs of the editors who disagree with you. If you work in a collegial way on Wikipedia, including the Talk: pages, I think you'll find it much easier to create NPOV on the articles of concern to you. Jayjg 00:13, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You have not improved. Your edits reflect a narrow-minded, virulently Zionist POV. You are not amenable to NPOV edits that offend your Zionist sensibilities. You stalk my history of contributions looking to revert edits with which you disagree. Your tone is condescending and patronizing. Interacting with you is far and away the worst part of my Wikipedia experience to date. Alberuni 01:48, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Um, it's as if I hadn't said anything at all. I'll try again; please restrict comments to discussions of the article content. Thanks in advance. Jayjg 02:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is little point in discussing issues with a dishonest pro-Israeli propagandist. The reason why Israelis prefer "disputed" to "occupied" is well-known by anyone who has been following the issue [4]. Alberuni 02:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps, but you might profit from discussing things with me. Regardless, you should sign your comments. Jayjg 02:54, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I did sign my note and I left you an article to read. Sorry you missed it. Read more carefully next time. Here it is again. The reason why Israelis prefer "disputed" to "occupied" is well-known by anyone who has been following the issue [5]. Alberuni 03:02, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ah, I see, you hightly indented one part of the comment, then spaced the other half all the way over to the left and placed it directly above other comments on the left. Very confusing for the reader. Jayjg 03:14, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Confusing"? Like the legal status of the Occupied Territories is "confusing and disputed" to you? It's always someone else's fault, isn't it? Try to keep up. Alberuni 03:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The legal status of the Disputed Territories is not at all confusing; they're clearly not Occupied under International Law. Jayjg 03:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Now you are disagreeing with yourself. "The legal status of them confusing and disputed, which is why "disputed" is the best term. Jayjg 14:43, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)" I'll just leave you two alone. Alberuni 04:11, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It's not confusing to me, but to those who are unfamiliar with it, it is. Jayjg 04:40, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This article disagrees with your interpretations of international law Jayjg: [6] Why don't you address the issue instead of categorically regurgitating Zionist propaganda as if it was fact? By the way, when did you stop claiming that "there is no such thing as a Palestinian?" Are you able to keep up with this confusing comment? Alberuni 04:18, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Other articles disagree with that article. So what? I don't think your categorically regurgitating Palestinian propaganda as if it was fact is any more helpful. Nor are non-sequiturs. Jayjg 04:43, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I provided a source explaining why your interpretation of international law is invalid and why "Occupied Territories" is correct terminology. If you can't support your case and just throw your hands up in the air when faced with facts refuting your extremist position, why do you believe you should be able to dictate to everyone else how these articles are edited? Alberuni 05:40, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)