Talk:Wesleyan University

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wesleyan University article.
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[edit] Archived

Talk page archived here Talk:Wesleyan University/Archive 1.
--Pgagnon999 (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fraternities

Probably should mention former fraternities, such as Delta Tau Delta and Chi Psi (there are definitely others, these two leap to mind).

Also, the current wording could be read as implying that Black and Latino fraternities aren't really fraternities; I'm not sure exactly how it should be reworded, but it should be. - Jmabel | Talk 00:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, I notice in old, archived talk "Alpha Delt undergrads came to calling (sic) their undergraduate society a literary society in the early 1990's". Not sure if this is germane to the article, but I'm pretty sure it predates that. I seem to remember the expression being used clear back in the 1970s. (They put out a literary magazine, Ad Lit, so the term was not entirely inappropriate.) - Jmabel | Talk 00:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

You're missing the rest of the conversation : any society can be a literary society in a general sense. But at Wesleyan, there was a special usage of the phrase, all the fraternity alumni organizations were titled Literary Societies. (Kent, Socratic, et c.) So Alpha Delt may be a society that is literary, but it is not a Literary Society. But it is not really germane to an article on Wesleyan.129.133.124.199 (talk) 03:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Further, shouldn't we mention that some of the fraternities are co-ed, and have been so pretty much from the time the school readmitted women? It's pretty unusual, though not unique. At least some had serious fights with their nationals over this. - Jmabel | Talk 01:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not against Alpha Delta Phi in any way, but could someone clarify how it is referenced as a "fraternity" under secret societies and fraternities of Wesleyan when it is considered co-ed? I thought "fraternity" was usually understood to mean a social organization composed only of men. bigbplaya | Talk 3:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Historically, yes. They had an enormous fight with their national over this. The national refused to recognize the female officers: at one point, as far as the national was concerned, the "senior" officer of the chapter was the vice president, because the president was female. I don't have sources on this offhand. I attended Wesleyan in the 1970s, when this was a raging conflict. I'm sure that written archives exist that can be cited, but I live on the West Coast now. Someone who is on or near the campus could probably find the materials to do some research on this. - Jmabel | Talk 23:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Things to add

We should have more information on : the computing facilities at Wesleyan, student groups, a history of protest going back more than four years, athletics section, student and campus life, the wesleyan argus.

[edit] User Pgagnon999

Pgagnon999 is only stalking this page in an attempt to start a flamewar. I encourage all posters to use caution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.124.199 (talk) 23:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Response: WP:DENY. If anyone is interested, see here [1] and here [2] for details on above user.--Pgagnon999 (talk) 23:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 0-136 loss to Yale

Someone keeps removing this. It is sourced and relevant. I don't see any reason to consider its inclusion vandalism. --Irn (talk) 21:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's try this: If can you go to any Big East school or any school for that matter and look at their Athletics section on Wikipedia, and find a trivial fact that some person has displayed about a game played over one hundred years ago, then you can keep it on the page. While it may be sourced whoever you are, you simply seek to exploit this little known fact for your own benefit and are detracting from the overall history of Wesleyan Athletics. Why are you singling out the football team?

It seems like your intention is to bring out the fact that Wesleyan athletics are sub-par or below your standards or the standards of others. Also, if you are going to reference such facts you should probably also reference the fact that the women's hockey and men's basketball teams haven't had a winning season in several years. If this is your intention then you should probably reference all trivial facts about each sport that you can possibly find. Make sure you do this correctly as these things take time, something you apparently have ample amounts of. --bigbplaya | Talk 20:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:AGF and WP:Civility if you wish to continue this discussion. If you check the edit history, you'll notice that I was not the person who found this fact and added it to the article. Rather, I saw it being deleted and thought that not right. As far as your argument that it is (a) trivial and (b) outdated, I think those are good points as it does not speak to today's program. However, as a record, it's pretty impressive. More so, I think that it should be included in the article along with more of the context from the original source, highlighting the team's generally "limited" "prowess" (in terms of win/loss records and the number of Big 3 championships compared to Amherst and Williams). Similarly, the trivia of the 1946-48 team needs some context to justify its inclusion. That said, we are discussing trivia, and, like Woodrow Wilson's support for the team and unofficial position as assistant coach, I don't feel terrribly strongly that it must be kept, but I do feel it does add to the article. As for your suggestions about the women's hockey and men's basketball teams, by all means we should include those; that's absolutely what this section is for.--Irn (talk) 03:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not aiming this discussion at you, rather whoever decided to include such a fact. However, when push comes to shove you yourself have used the term "trivia", which is what these facts are IMHO. Since trivia is technically frowned upon under Wikipedia's guidelines it should not be included. No one has tackled my question of why other schools do not have such "impressive" facts on their Wikipedia pages, but Wesleyan for some reason can. Those closely linked to the school do not wish to have negative, trivial facts brought to the limelight. I believe the Athletics section should include a brief synopsis of each sport at Wesleyan, without partisanship to specific records. I do agree that the 1946-48 record and Woodrow Wilson's support should be excluded from the article.

Conflict of interest or not it detracts from what Wesleyan really stands for in a negative since. I am not disputing the fact that these things have happened (i.e. 1886 loss, and women and mens teams) however these facts hurt the school in recruiting prospective students. For example you won't find much negative, if any, information or facts on Duke University's Wikipedia page regarding the 2006 Men's Lacrosse Rape Scandal. You also won't find a reference that UConn Men's Basketball point guard, AJ Price, was caught stealing laptops from dorms on campus his freshman year on their page. These are known facts and not personal attacks however there is no mention. If people are allowed to add such facts to Wesleyan's page I should be allowed to add these aforementioned facts to their respective Wikipedia page, correct? Someone please explain to me how Wesleyan is different, no pun intended. bigbplaya | Talk 11:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Trivia is not technically frowned upon under Wikipedia guidelines. Maybe you're thinking of trivia sections, which are? Also, I did not say that I think the Woodrow Wilson bit or the 1946-8 record should be excluded - please don't misrepresent me. I'm not sure what you mean by "partisanship to specific records." However, at this moment, I'm much more interested in addressing your obvious conflict of interest. By trying to only show what you consider to be Wesleyan's good side, you're evincing a clear failure to adhere to the neutral point of view policy. Just because something you support is represented in a way that you view as negative is not sufficient grounds for exclusion. Also, could you use colons to indent your text so that the flow of conversation is easier to follow (you use one more colon than the person before you)? Thanks.--Irn (talk) 02:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Do you honestly believe that every page on Wikipedia adheres to the Neutral Point of View policy? Come on, we're all reasonable adults here, but wow! I stand corrected on trivia guidelines, but still think all of these facts are trivia. Partisanship is the devotion to or biased support of a party, group, or cause. I mean to say that information should be presented without such partisanship and without explicit reference to specific Wesleyan records that do not add merit to the program. I do find it somewhat odd that Wesleyan University cannot find information on that 1886 loss according to their archives but someone else has seemingly found such a fact.  :I have no obvious COI. However, I would have to say that about 90% of the people who contribute to Wesleyan's page are linked to Wesleyan because they can contribute the most since they know what Wesleyan entails. Since that's the case we should probably delete the whole Wesleyan University Wikipedia page...and possibly the majority of Wikipedia for that matter. You still have not answered my question as to why other schools don't have negative information posted on their page. Perhaps your failure to do so is sufficient enough. Can I still add the information to UConn and Duke's pages since that information is highly relevant to the quality of students and athletics? This is the last that I am going to speak on this matter.bigbplaya | Talk 2:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia. You can't throw it out the window just because not every article represents a neutral point of view. It is something we strive towards. Honestly, I think you have a fundamental misconception about Wikipedia since you think we ought not include any facts that "do not add merit to the program." The Wesleyan football program does [not have a tradition of success]: in the past 25 years, they have had eight seasons above .500 and have not outright won a Little Three championship since 1970. Excluding that information because you don't like it while inclduing only positive aspects of the football program fundamentally biases the article. I don't know why other articles don't have negative information (although the Duke page does reference the scandal) because I haven't been involved in those discussions. Are you trying to show some precedent from those pages? If so, you need to make an argument beyond that you haven't seen negative information in other articles. Also, the Wesleyan website lists the [0-136 loss] (that's a link you provided, by the way). As for your conflict of interest: Those closely linked to the school do not wish to have negative, trivial facts brought to the limelight combined with the 90% stat you made up and your obvious personal preference to avoid anything you deem negative being written on the page all add up to a conflict of interest.
Your hyperbole, invented statistics, and refusal to continue this conversation strike me as disengenuous at best. Furthermore, your blatant disregard for WP:NPOV and perseverance in editing the article in the midst of this discussion make me question your commitment to resolving this dispute amicably.--Irn (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I would have to agree with bigbplaya, a lot of articles on Wikipedia fail to keep NPOV. Perhaps we should address that before we address small issues like the one at hand. I propose we simply state the fact that Wesleyan has certain athletic teams. No records or such trivia. That way NPOV can be maintained. We must all remember that no matter what, this is Wikipedia. There is always someone who is going to try and outdo someone else and there are individuals who sit on the computer and revert edits as soon as they occur and vice versa. For example, I was able to find out the winner for Best Picture at the Academy Awards recently on Wikipedia before I did on the actual TV. Irn, you have not been involved in such discussions you mentioned above, because they don't exist. I would be happy to investigate further into how many other schools have NPOV violations and suggest we tackle those as well. I also counted 14 seasons at .500 or above. I think what bigbplaya meant about those closely linked to the school meant people who are associated with the school contribute the most to the article. Not necessarily the best points of view, but I would have to agree that the majority of people linked to Wesleyan edit its page. Not sure on the stats though.64.252.81.170 (talk) 03:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
While I appreciate your attempt at a compromise, I’m going to have to reject it as it would effectively strip the sports section of all substance. NPOV can also be maintained by adhering to it as a principle and not limiting Wikipedia to only discussing positive attributes.
As for your 14 count, I don’t know why you brought that up. I clearly wrote “above .500” because that’s how a winning season is defined. Also, when replying, please use colons to indent your text (using one more colon than the person you are replying to). Thanks. --Irn (talk) 23:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


Wait, if the football section mentions how wesleyan beat michigan in 1883, then how can you keep the yale loss out? you either need to include both trivas, or neither.

75.69.133.211 (talk) 14:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. And I've removed the trivia about football teams from long-ago. -- Irn (talk) 16:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Good for you. You are finally learning!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.133.141.159 (talk) 19:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)