Talk:Webster's Dictionary

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Discussions before July 1, 2006 have been archived at Talk:Webster's Dictionary/Archive1.

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[edit] Citations and support

I have just added quite a few 'fact' and 'verify' tags to this article. I could see nothing in the Talk archive relating to the issue of support for the statements made in this article, so assume it has either not been addressed thus far, or else is a new issue after new additions to the article.

Some of the tags I have added are simply requests for proper referencing of quotations or facts. The section on 'Criticisms' of the dictionary is one such area: although many quotes are given from contemporary critics (mostly newspaper editors), there is no proper citation for the quotes, simply ...as Joe Blogs says, "...". This is the simpler use of the 'fact' tag.

However in many more cases statements are made which could well be true but which, without some sort of supporting evidence, are potentially questionable and POV. Many claims are made about which dictionary is 'more popular', which is 'a better scholarly work', and other comments along those lines. If some citation can be supplied to support these statements, then it would be great if they could be included where relevent (I've added tags for comments like this that I have seen). Without citations, this article seems very POV to me, almost like a defence of the 'true' Webster's. I can't NPOV the article myself because these comments are woven throughout the whole structure of the article. If these statements are in fact true, then it isn't POV, but citations are needed to show this. I'm hoping the original authors of this article or some experts can help out with these citations - it's a large task, larger if you don't know the source of the comments as I don't. I'm happy to help include the citations if someone can help me locate them. CastorQuinn 04:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

JA: Chances are that many of the statements come from the references listed, but that the editors did not think to give page numbers, as this kind of laxness is very common in WP. Jon Awbrey 04:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that's probably true. I'm going to go through and include as many citations as I can when I have the time to read through all the reference materials. CastorQuinn 05:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to cite page numbers for every item taken from the books in the refernce list? I agree that most of these items are found in those references. I see no need to clutter the article like this. There would have to be multitudes of citations to cover the statements in this article. Abstrator 08:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merriam "innovation"?

Under Revisions and updates: The Collegiate Dictionary, the sentence "The most notable change was the Merriam innovation of including the date of the first known citation of each word, to document its entry into the English language" is problematic. If M-W, rather than OED, were the innovators of listing first known citation, I'd be flabbergasted. At any rate, OED listed them well before the the ninth ed. of M-W Collegiate. Rivertorch 07:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

A good point. It should probably be qualified that M-W Collegiate was the first commercial or mass market dictionary to do this. Abstrator 08:11, 28 November 2006 UTC)

[edit] Other Webster's references

Today at the dollar store, alongside a Webster's English Dictionary (a trade paperback by a no-name publisher), I saw a Webster's English-French Dictionary and a Webster's English Thesaurus. How long will it be before dollar stores start selling Webster's Encyclopedias? NeonMerlin 03:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not surprised because, as the article points out, "Webster's" doesn't really mean anything anymore; any publishing house can whip out an el-cheapo dictionary--or, yes, even an encyclopedia--and slap "Webster's" on the cover to increase sales. (That's why Merriam-Webster eventually changed the name of all its dictionaries to "Merriam-Webster's"; though "Webster's" alone is still commonly used with the Third New International which long predated the change, in the latest printings even that one is now Merriam-Webster's Third New International). And when you're talking minor and/or outdated editions, even Merriam-Webster dictionaries could end up in the dollar-store bins.
The only reasons an article belongs here by this title are (a) the name "Webster's" is still commonly associated with dictionaries by the general public in the U.S. (even though it's really meaningless), and (b) the earliest editors of this article chose to put the Merriam-Webster dictionaries in this article rather than in separate articles. (It might be a good idea to move the Merriam-Websters to separate articles, much like the respected non-Merriam "Webster's" dictionaries listed at the end.) --RBBrittain 16:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CD versions

I think there should be a mention of the CD versions of these dictionaries (and the inclusion in CD encyclopedias, like the Britannica). That would be most helpful, and would complement the "online" references.

There is. I believe it comes with the purchase of the Unabridged. Alphabetagamma 22:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misplaced paragraph

The section on the Second International ed ends with the para

"For example, in the case of Miller Brewing Co. v. G. Heileman Brewing Co., Inc., 561 F.2d 75 (7th Cir. 1977), a trademark dispute in which the terms "lite" and "light" were held to be generic for light beer and therefore available for use by anyone, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, after considering a definition offered by one of the parties from the Third Edition of the New International, wrote "[t]he comparable ..."

A citation by the judge of the 3rd Ed is not an example of what happens in the 2nd! I recommend the writer to rethink the actual use of exemplification and rephrase this: it is clear what is meant, and I don't want to crash through someone else's prose. MacAuslan 17:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The quote from the opinion (which you mostly left out) explains why that paragraph belongs in the Second Edition section. That court appeared to prefer the Second Edition over the Third Edition--a full 16 years after the Third Edition was published.
Though that may be a commentary on the Third Edition and its controversial changes, it really doesn't belong in the Third Edition section because it tends to further denigrate the Third Edition's approach, which some now believe was the right one in light of the numerous changes in American English over the years. (In fact, I personally think a Fourth Edition is way past due.)
Ultimately, that quote stands for the fact that many people preferred the Second Edition for many, many years after the Third Edition's publication. (That happened to be true with my own parents as well.) That is why it belongs in the Second Edition section. --RBBrittain 16:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation?

In the intro paragraph this claim is made, "The entire dictionary was written fully by Charles John Webster in one night, in between band practises for his uber- popular rock band Supremo Gophero." As this seems unlikely, is there a citation available? 24.83.198.47 19:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)Anonymous

[edit] public domain

Is public domain the correct term for a trademark? I thought public domain was a term for copyright. --Gbleem 18:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)