Talk:Watermill

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[edit] Is this article too narrow?

Are "watermills" really confined to milling grain? What is the word that describes the buildings containing all the other industrial applications of water wheels to power forge bellows, trip hammers, paper mills, and all the other accoutrements of the early industrial age?

Atlant17:45, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, too narrow

I live in a converted water-powered mill over 100 years old. Although their is extensive evidence of the existence of an enclosed waterwheel and associated flume and races, there is no evidence that grain was ever milled here.

The valley around me once boasted 15 mills in less than four miles of stream. At most, one of them (according to the documents and maps at my disposal) was a grist mill (flour mill). The rest were barking mills, spoke mills, and sawmills. All these were waterpowered and did not grind grain.

Somebody has incorrectly equated water-powered mills with grist mills, and has introduced the (possibly spurious) term "grinding mill" which is not used at all in the United States to refer to historic structures (although perhaps it is a modern mining term).

--Charlie Brooks, 2005-10-11

I agree. From my point of view in England there are a host of applications of watermill technology to power machinery. Few of these seem to be listed here. Peterkingiron 21:25, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Additionally the reference to tidal (or tide) mill needs to be updated. There is a stub article on tide mills that should be referenced when the stub is large enough. In the meantime I have edited the "tidal mills" words to link to the stub

Fiddle Faddle 09:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

My interests are in the early New England water-powered mills. Although the overshot wheel technology was first used, there was a switch to turbines very early on. I don't want to just throw in something about turbines as a successor into an article that focuses on pre-industrial food production mills first and foremost. So, should this article be broadened, or should I just leave it all out? Thanks, CSZero (talk) 04:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Never mind that - I skimmed the article far too quickly it appears. I guess it is somewhat inconsistant about turbines as a later option and whether they apply or not, but they are at least mentioned in passing, if not in operation. CSZero (talk) 04:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] British .vs. American milling terminology

There's a possible Brit English / US English problem in relation to the first post in this section. "Grist Mill" is pretty much unknown as a term in the UK (except when reading about mills in America), where "water mill" generally means a water-powered mill for the production of various types of ground cereal products. For other uses we would use "water-powered (X) mill", where (X) could be replaced by the words cotton, fulling, saw, oil, or whatever (with "water-powered forge" for that particular case). I don't see an easy way round it but thought it worth flagging up. Ghughesarch 02:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not think 'grist mill' is incomprehensible to the English, though the term corn mill is more usual, or in the context of this article water corn mill. At one stage this article was excessively focused on corn, but that defect has been to some extent redressed. There is no need to refer to 'water fulling mills', because a fulling mill using any other artificial power source would be exceptional, similiarly cotton etc. Peterkingiron 16:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I really don't agree, especially about cotton mills. The vast majority of the latter, in the UK, were never water powered, but driven by steam engines, and cotton today, wherever it is produced, is not made in water-powered mills except at preserved historic sites.
"Grist mill" may be comprehensible to English ears, but it is not the normal term, which as I mentioned in my earlier comment is "watermill" - without the qualifier "corn" (or "flour", "meal" or any one of several other possibilities). A "corn mill" without the power source being given, could be wind, animal, steam or electrically operated. It depends to some extent whether you are interested in the motive power, or the process being powered. Ghughesarch 18:30, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

In North America, the term corn is used only to refer to maize. The vast majority of Americans are completely unaware of the classical meaning of the word (a generic term for the most prevalent cereal crop available in a particular time or place). So, effectively, a British "corn mill" is an American "grist mill" but an American "corn mill" is a British "maize mill". --Charlie Brooks 2007-04-26

As Churchill said we are divided by a common language. I accept that ther is a problem over Amercan 'corn' being what I in England call 'sweetcorn' or maize. This is a problem that we have to live with, trying to make the article intelligible to readers on both sides of the Atlantic, and for that matter elsewhere. "Watermill" can refer to a water paper mill, a fulling mill or other kinds. The majority ground grain (of various kinds), but there were a wide cariety of other kinds. Peterkingiron 21:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of leat

I believe the correct spelling should be leat. A quick search on Google was as follows:

  • Mill leat - 219,000 entries
  • Mill leet - 334 entries

Rellis1067 16:34, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the spelling leet is ever used in this context, and suspect someone is having a joke based on leet. Unless anybody can come up with a citation for the use of leet for a mill race, I propose we remove it. Alf Boggis [[User_talk:Alf_Boggis|(talk)]]
I've checked on this before. Here, from Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged (1952) , is the definition:
leet, n. A leat; a flume. [Obs.]
Obsolete, but real.
Atlant 11:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I do not recall seeing the spelling 'leet' in this context. Peterkingiron 21:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
But I gave you a citation to exactly this meaning.
Atlant 23:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amendment to 'Operation'

I found that the article had been subject to certain (probably well-meaning) amendments that had left it incorrect. I have therefore undertaken a substantial alteration, in a way which will (I hope) discourage meddling by those who in fact know less than they think. However, I am uncertain whether I have got the right names for the various gear wheels in a typical corn mill. If I have inverted any, I hope some one else will correct my work (not revert it). Peterkingiron 23:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Your additions are appreciated and well done. The gearing you describe is what Oliver Evans called the "Great Spur Gear Drive". The Evans system of mill automation revolutionized milling in the late 1700s and early 1800s. Earlier gearing was typically wooden cog-and-rung "one-step" or "counter gearing"; these systems have serious limitations of reliability and power output and were almost totally supplanted by the Great Spur, so that relatively few examples of anything else still exist. -- Charlie Brooks 2007-04-26

Some one has added something about the Han dynasty. I do not know wheter this is right, but have moved this away from the main account of European watermills, as the statement did not sit happily where it had been placed. If the statement is correct, it is likely that the mill was invented independently in China and Europe. However a citation is needed. Peterkingiron 23:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the ancient Chinese did invent the water wheel as well, during either the usurpation of Wang Mang or the very early Eastern Han Dynasty, or perhaps even earlier that wasn't officially documented. Refer to Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China, or Michael and Mary Wood's Ancient Machines: From Wedges to Waterwheels. --PericlesofAthens 23:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

In that case please add your refeences to the article. To do this click the markup (below) including 'ref' and place your referecne in the middle, ideally with the page number(s). Peterkingiron 21:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moerou toukon

Moerou toukon (block log) has been permanently blocked as a sockpuppet of the Indian nationalist editor Freedom skies (block log · checkuser confirmed), who has a history of

The Arbitration Committee has found that Freedom skies has "repeatedly engaged in edit-warring" and placed him on revert parole. When examining Freedom skies' editing, be mindful of the following:

JFD 06:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request quote

In this diff, Moerou toukon added the following text:

Joseph Needham dated the early uses of water wheel can be dated to 4th century BC India. Joseph Needham noted in 1965 that certain ancient Indian texts from around 350 BC mentioned a cakkavattaka (turning wheel) and a further elaboration of a revolving machine.

No source is given for the attribution to Needham. JFD 14:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RE:Request quote

Joseph Needham noted in 1965 that certain ancient Indian texts dating from around 350 BC mentioned a chakkacattaka (machine with wheel posts attached). On this basis he suggested that the machine in question was a noria and that it was the first water powered prime mover.

The No source is given for the attribution to Needham statement is incorrect; the footnote was given at the end of the paragraph. I will reinstate sourced material and point that any further personal attacks on the lines of the Indian nationalist editor will be met with request for administrative action; ditto for blanking sourced material.

Regards,
Freedom skies| talk  16:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Reynolds indeed cites Needham, p. 361. He quotes the word as cakkavaṭṭaka, rather than as in text. If there is a problem, it is with the interpretation of Needham's source, something on which he was somewhat equivocal. When dealing with literary sources from such a remote period, interpretation is often a problem. The meanings of words can change or be forgotten. Furthermore in dealing with novel concepts, novel words are needed. This is an area where certainty is not possible; that is to be regretted, but is unavoidable. Of course, if some one can provide any further external sources (internet or printed) that discuss the matter, it would be useful. Needham's work was publihsed 40 years ago and his primary expertise was on China, not India. Some of his views on other regions have been found (on further research), not to be quite right. Peterkingiron 18:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I have not myslef checked the page in Needham, but (if Reynolds got the page wrong) it will not be far off. Needham's discussion of the Noria begins on about p. 356. Peterkingiron 18:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separate invention

Some one removed the suggestion that the horizontal waterwheel was invented in China, separately from the vertical one, which was invented either in India (if the cakkavaṭṭaka was indeed one) or around Asia Minor (where Philo came from). I made this commetn after a careful review of several of the discussions of the issue, particularly Lewis, who has been back to the Classical sources on the subject. I am not clear how authorative a work Woods is, as I have not seen it. If there is a disagreement, this should be dealt with by setting out the opposing views, not by competitive editing: I suspect that few of us editors are competent to judge between them. However care needs to be taken to ensure that the best sources are cited. A slightly older secondary source is often to be preferred to a more modern tertiary (or more derivative) source that has failed to consider that secondary one. I have on this occasion refrained from making substanial changes. Peterkingiron 18:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It would help to have more references to the archaeological sources for mills. I know some recent work in London has shown what is probably a Roman tide mill, and there is much older work where many vertical mills have been found and excavated in Roman forts, such as those on Hadrian's Wall. The outstanding example of a vertical mill complex is at Barbegal, and recent French work at the site show it to be older than previously thought. The recent work at Dolaucothi suggests a crushing mill, and it is interesting to note that the Roman Carreg Pumsaint is very similar to the many stone anvils from the Medieval Stanneries, where crushing mills worked by a vertical wheel are likely. The problem with many of the academic discussions on the problem of who invented what and where is the lack of evidence on the ground, although this is now changing fast. Peterlewis (talk) 16:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

Mill dam should not redirect here but rather should lead to the Milldam page directly. Caid^9 17:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

link corrected. Peterkingiron 23:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] China v Greece

I do not want to engage in an edit war over which section should come first. The article implied that the Chinese made iron using waterpower from the 2nd century BC, when the article identifies the invention of water-powered bellows in a subsequent paragraph. The difficulty is that water-power was harnessed separately in two differnet regions at the end of the BC era. With the possible exception of the grain pounding (for dehusking) in China (surely a minor application), the Greek evidence is earlier than the Chinese, which is why it has eben placed first. Furthermore, this is the lineal ancestor of most industrial mills in the west, and so (I consider) more important. The terms "Greek Mill" and "Roman Mill" are unhelpful, particularly in view of Lewis' reinterpretaion of Philo's work. Another problem is that there is no scholarly consensus on the origin (outside China) of the horizontal-wheeled mill. It is possible that the answer to this dilemma is to provide separate sections on horizontally and vertically wheeled mills. I think there used to be a reference in the article to water-lifting devices, which may provide the origin of the vertical wheel, but some one removed it, because strictly it was not a mill. Comments please. Peterkingiron 22:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)richie is the sexiest.

[edit] POV Edit

I have edited the section on Islamic mills to eliminate POV statements that they "invented" many machines. In fact many examples are known from the Roman world from much earlier, and the Islamic world was probably discovering Roman texts where such devices were already well discussed. Peterlewis (talk) 22:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject

Anybody interested in a Wikiproject on mills? Proposal to form one is here. Mjroots (talk) 16:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)