Talk:Watergate scandal

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[edit] Introduction

The introduction is terrible and gives no clear information about what Watergate is all about. It would really need a two or three sentence definition of the scandal. Since I am German, I will leave this up to someone else.

... I agree, the introduction is useless, I know nothing about Watergate and the Wiki intro is a real disappointment: I still know nothing.

.. I was not even sure why it was a big deal, with respect to the break in at Democrat offices... until I saw that Nixon was a Republican. Perhaps there could be some info about Democrats and Republicans in this article.. and that apparently (from what I've discovered so far about US politics) there are only two major political parties in the US (and were at that time?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.57.230.198 (talk) 16:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

.. I completely agree, I don't understand anything in this event. The whole article needs a rewrite.

I am an Australian with little knowledge of American political history. This article is not helpful to me at all. It must obviously have been written for Americans. It assumes too much prior knowledge, most evident in the introduction.

I added a two sentences section on its significance. Others can help place the context of how the Watergate break-in was the key that unlocked the criminal activities of the Nixon admin using IRS tax audits (illegal) on its enemies, using illegal taping of conversations and using illegal campaign funds. Chivista 15:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear contributors, I took a stab at re-writing the intro. I did my best to keep it as concise as possible while attempting to summarize this hefty event. I plan on expanding further upon material that was present in the previous version of the Introduction, such as referencing the "plumbers", etc. I added the requests for citations for several of the statements I made, and have the material to satisfy them, just not in front of me at the moment. Ukulele 23:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, cited my statements. Ukulele 06:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silent Coup

Hi there. I am not American and I don't know much about the subject. However, reading the last paragraph of text, there is clearly some strong POV, even with the "witty" ellipsis at the end. I would suggest taking a close look at that

[edit] Piece of tape

I'm trying to do some research on this topic. It states that there was a peice of tape that the security gaurd found that was preventing the door from locking. How was it doing this? Like how was it placed on the door?--The_stuart 16:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I belive you could do that by placing it over the little metal bolt that holds the door in the frame when it is shut, you know, when you turn the knob, it moves the little metal bolt in so you can open the door, but if there is tape over the bolt holding it in the door then it cannot hold the door in the frame

[edit] Long story short

They could have added a shorter story with the essence in it.

I agree

[edit] FOIA

The articles says that the Watergate scandal was a major factor in the passage of the Freedom of Information Act. Yet the Freedom of Information Act article says that the FOI Act was first passed in 1966.

User:Wm 17 Nov 2003

[edit] Votes against the Articles of Impeachment

The page says:

... The House Judiciary Committee voted 27 to 11 on 27 July, 1974 to recommend the first article of impeachment against the President: obstruction of justice. Then on 29 July the second article, abuse of power, was passed and on 30 July the third, contempt of Congress, was also passed. In August, a previously unknown tape was released... With this last piece of evidence, Nixon's few remaining supporters deserted him. The 10 congressmen who had voted against the Articles of Impeachment in Committee announced that they would now all support impeachment when the vote was taken in the full House.

How many congressmen voted against the Articles of Impeachment? 10 or 11?

Dominus 01:58, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I tried to find out exactly that answer, but found many sources that gave conflicting numbers. So I went with the simple majority of sources that I checked (maybe there was a last minute hold-out - that would explain the number difference). --mav 02:06, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
There were three Articles of Impeachment; the first (obstruction of justice) passed 27-11. The second (abuse of power) passed 28-10. The third (contempt) passed 21-17. That's probably where the discrepancy about the Committee members reversing their vote lies, since everything I've read says that every member of the Committee planned on changing their vote after the "smoking gun" tape was released. Since I'm new to this, however, I wouldn't be comfortable making a substantive change like this. Me 21:02 10 Jun 2004
There is no discrepancy. The number 10 comes from the 10 Republicans who voted against all three articles of impeachment. The other Republicans voted differently on different articles. The wording could be clarified; I'll take a crack at it.--Dhartung 08:09, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Recordings of presidential conversations

Presidents from Roosevelt to Nixon made recordings of their conversations - none since Watergate of course

That we know of... :) Branden 10:42, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The distinction, according to RN, Nixon's autobiography, is that his predecessors allowed themselves to turn the recorders on and off, and he claims he didn't (though there is that 18:30 minutes, of course). --Calieber 15:12, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Examination of the tape by audio recording experts revealed that the "gap" was created by intentionally erasing the tape, perhaps as many as a dozen times. It's believed that Nixon did not erase it at the time, but Nixon or an associate deliberately erased it after it had been recorded, but before it was turned over to Congress. Scooter 03:09, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for all significant players

We should have articles for all of the significant players according to Woodward and Bernstein's All the President's Men:

...and, of course:

Whew. Branden 10:42, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)


Respectfully, All The President's Men is not a comprehensive history of this event, but an account of the Washington Post's coverage and the rolls of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein in their investigative reporting. Their book primarily talks about the investigation and very little else. There were quite a bit more players than than those mentioned in their book-- as amazing and deserving of the Pulitzer as it is. This event was so large and complex, I would find it a daunting task (though a thoroughly satisfying one) to collate such a list of the players, the played and the pawns. Ukulele 07:14, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Grammar and syntax corrections"

Hey, Scooter, while making "grammar and syntax corrections" you made inaccurate the part where I talked about Woodward and Bernstein deciding to launch an investigation based on the arraginment of the Watergate burglars. You changed it to "trial". They're not the same thing. An arraignment is simply where the charges are read, you enter a plea, bond is set, and the judge asks some basic questions, possibly to verify that the person before him or her is actually the one in the prosecutor's complaint. For instance, Woodward and Bernstein were intrigued when one of the (then-)accused burglars responded to a routine query from the judge as to his profession. The guy answered "anti-communist", and after some prodding from the judge, claimed he worked for the CIA. All this is in All the President's Men. Anyway, an arraignment is a thing that takes a few minutes, whereas a trial can take days to weeks, and I'm not sure W & B were actually in attendance during the whole trial. Please fix. Branden 07:47, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This doesn't mention what was stolen, only that something was stolen. Somebody should add that.

[edit] I am not a crook

Wasn't the "I am not a crook" declaration made in connection with the IRS investigation of deductions Nixon made for donation of his papers to the National Archives rather than anything to do with Watergate?

PedanticallySpeaking 17:17, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Yes. "The 'I am not a crook' remark came in answer to a question about Nixon's personal finances and tax payments. Press reports had noted that Nixon paid only $1670 in income taxes in 1970 and 1971 on income of $400,000. In his answer, Nixon did not confirm or deny the figures, stating only that he paid 'nominal amounts' in taxes for those years.
"He said the situation resulted from the $500,000 wrth of income deduction he claimed by donating his vice presidential papers to the government....The President then detailed some of his personal finances.
"'I made my mistakes,' the President went on, 'but in all my years in public life, I have never profited, never profited from public service. I have earned every cent ... Well, I am not a crook. I have earned everything I have got.'"
-- From "Watergate: Chronology of a Crisis" by the staff of Congressional Quarterly Inc., c. 1975, p. 432. The report first appeared in a CQ weekly publication immediately after the Nov. 17, 1973 news conference.
That's very strange. I clearly remember Nixon saying "I am not a crook" on a nationally televised address to the nation, not to a delegation of "400 Associated Press managing editors at Walt Disney World in Florida" as the article claims. I wouldn't have seen it if he was speaking to reporters. -- MiguelMunoz 23:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
One pretty good website is taxhistory.org [1]
I mean, to take a half-million dollar deduction for something that's not out of pocket at all ? ? ? Look, either donate the vice-presidential papers, don't donate them, to a public organization, a private organization, whatever, instructions that they not be released until twenty years after your death, however you want to do it. But don't try and make it a tax bonanza. Maybe he received reallly bad advice from an accountant who didn't see the larger context, Hey, this person is our leader. Paying taxes is an important part of being a citizen and at times a very frustrating part. And the president has got to lead by example.
And then the donation was back-dated and that's the technical cheat.
-----
As far as the press conference, it's often unclear to me what context a president is speaking in, and I often think it's kind of a blur. And certainly Richard Nixon, following his 1960 debate with Kennedy, I'm sure he learned that the best way to connect with people at home is to look right at the camera, and not to keep looking at the reporter who asked the question. FriendlyRiverOtter 18:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link to a 1975 Time magazine article transcript talking about Nixon's taxes [2] .

And as far as the quote itself: "Let me just say this, and I want to say this to the televison audience: I made my mistakes, but in all of my years of public life, I have never profited . . . " So it kind of looks like Nixon was ad-libbing, that he started off talking to the reporters, and then broadened it. This is from Giga Quotes [3] , which I guess is okay. But maybe someone can help us get something more authoritative (although there's a lot to be said for websites that are informal and feisty and so on; in any case, multiple sources would be a good idea, please help if you can). FriendlyRiverOtter 22:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference for what was being stolen?

Is there a good reference on what was being stolen? http://www.sumeria.net/politics/kennedy.html is one link that summarizes the (probably correct IMO) theory that Nixon was covering up his involvement with the Bay of Pigs Invasion and Kennedy Assassination. Interesting Bush the first also shows up prominently in both events. In other words, his administration took huge risks to prevent "the mother of all scandals" and the gambit worked. However this doesn't seem to get any mainstream attention - mainstream sources seem to ignore the motive completely regarding Watergate.. 07:30, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Unlabeled revert

My last edit was a rever, i don't know why the edit summary didn't say that. I apologise. Gkhan 17:35, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request for overview to begin article

Can someone who knows more about this issue than me, please provide a short overview of the scandal in the first paragraph. It is not terribly clear what the scandal was even about without reading the whole article. In particular, launching into details of the burglary is not very useful if you have no prior knowledge. Bobbis 22:41, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I read the article and felt the same way even before I saw your note. So I have added a short (?) overview. It covers the significance of the event: the illegalities and abuses, and the constitutional aspects. It also covers what I felt were the three areas of pressure and how they ended: 1) The judiciary committee voted for impeachment, 2) the supreme court essentially ruled that Nixon was not above the law and 3) Nixon brought himself down with the incontrovertible evidence of the tapes.
I think this is a good balance between being too wordy, or duplicating too much of the main article info, and giving a quick-to-read overview that places the main article info in context. I hope you agree!
Right now, the overview is three paragraphs which immediately follow the first paragraph. If people feel the overview is too long, my suggestion is simply to give it its own heading. Perhaps "Importance and overview", "Introduction" or just "Overview". I do think it should appear as the first heading -- before getting into all the details about the burglary, coverup, etc.
i think the standard wikipedia deal is to have a short overview at the beginning w/o a heading. i suggest you work hard to shorten the current one. maybe begin with the extreme assignment of putting what you want to say in only one sentence. keeping it to a short paragraph or so after that should be easy. if you'd like, i'll take a stab at it, though i'll probably cut more out than you want. remember, people interested in an overview need very few details. big picture. the article is there for those who want it. SaltyPig 03:35, 2005 Jun 11 (UTC)
I liked my three paragraph (9 June 2005) version. I think it gave the important facts necessary to gain a big picture overview. Given the complexity of Watergate, adding three paragraphs to the whole Wikipedia article wasn't a huge increase in length. But it was a huge increase in understanding why the scandal rose to a constitutional crisis. It made the next 20 long paragraphs much easier to place in context.
Salty, I did take your suggestion and cut as much as I could. I am not wild about this, which is why I didn't add it to the article. But see what you think. Maybe it will inspire your own attempt at doing a short but salient overview.
There were two main aspects of the Watergate scandal. The first aspect was a series of illegal operations against political opponents, approved by high-ranking White House officials during the first Nixon Administration. The first public inkling of these came on June 17, 1972, when police arrested burglars with wiretap equipment at the Democratic National Committee offices in the Watergate Office Building. The second aspect of the scandal was a secret coverup, directed personally by Nixon and his aides to prevent public knowledge of the Watergate burglary and the other operations.
For two years, all three branches of the U.S. government increasingly clashed with the President, as they tried to investigate the Watergate burglary and other operations. Trying to keep the coverup intact, the President resisted Congressional subpoenas, court decisions and even his own Executive Branch Special Prosecutors.The constitutional crisis climaxed on August 5, 1974 when Nixon obeyed a unanimous Supreme Court decision that he turn over secret audiotapes of conversations with his aides. One tape, made six days after the Watergate burglary, proved allegations that Nixon had encouraged an extensive coverup. This so-called "smoking gun" tape led Nixon supporters to encourage him to leave office, rather than face almost certain impeachment by the Congress. On August 9 Nixon resigned the Presidency.
--Pmurph5 30 June 2005 06:58 (UTC)
Pmurph5, i think it's much better, but something keeps shining through: you're just dying to do an analysis of the watergate scandal. wikipedia isn't for analysis. it may sound extremely rigid, but claiming that there are "two main aspects" of the scandal is POV. one might claim there were 5. another 3. this isn't the place. the second paragraph is headed in the right direction, though i don't agree with your framing of the watergate scandal as a president-against-the-world thing; it was a big scandal even if nixon hadn't known a thing or been involved in a coverup. it seems also that you're eager to mention "three branches" in every version, and the term "constitutional crisis". in my view, most presidents, including the first ones, have instigated constitutional crises. seems to me that it's an alliterative trendy term, perhaps out of place in a wikipedia article. and don't forget that "impeachment" is an often misunderstood word.
i think the article's fine without a larger overview, but if you're going to add one, i encourage you to steer well away from analysis, and avoid POV -- even the more neutral sounding variety. the length is about right, though it could be shorter. SaltyPig 30 June 2005 17:50 (UTC)
Salty, what I would like to see is very simple: a short explanation or overview of the Watergate scandal to put it in context. This contrasts with the current chronological list of events and facts-uncovered. The explanation/overview/summary should allow one to understand (briefly!) the main elements of the Watergate scandal. As wonderful as the 20 paragraphs of detail in this article are, having only detail makes it difficult for someone with little previous knowledge to gain an overview of the scandal.
Based on your comments, here is a further attempt at removing unconscious or inadvertent POV. I have left in "constitutional crisis" because it is a valid term for the Watergate affair, used widely both at the time and now. (I suggest doing a Google search for "constitutional crisis watergate". I could not find any results where it was claimed that Watergate was not a constitutional crisis.) I have tried to make each sentence a factual summary rather than an analysis.
From about 1970 to 1972, White House [or "high-level"] officials in the Nixon Administration approved a series of illegal operations against political opponents. The first public inkling of these came on June 17, 1972, when police arrested burglars with wiretap equipment at the Democratic National Committee offices in the Watergate Office Building. The press and the Justice Department began investigating the participants and purpose of the burglary. At the same time, President Nixon and his aides began a secret coverup, to avoid disclosure of additional information about the Watergate burglary and the other, earlier operations.
For two years, all three branches of the U.S. government, plus the press, continued looking into the Watergate burglary and other operations. Trying to keep the coverup intact, the President resisted Congressional subpoenas and hearings, court decisions and even his own Executive Branch Special Prosecutors. The constitutional crisis climaxed on August 5, 1974 when Nixon obeyed a unanimous Supreme Court decision that he turn over secret audiotapes of conversations with his aides. One tape, made six days after the Watergate burglary, proved allegations that Nixon had encouraged an extensive coverup. This so-called "smoking gun" tape led Nixon supporters to encourage him to leave office, rather than face almost certain impeachment (trial and removal from office) by the Congress. On August 9 Nixon resigned the Presidency.
I hope this is satisfactory, or needs only minor tweaking to satisfy your standards. If you like it, great -- please put it in.
If you don't like what I've come up with, then my modest request is that you undertake this. I think you agree about the usefulness of an introduction/overview. Since you seem to have a better handle on POV problems, and you are well-versed in Watergate, a short 2-3 paragraph intro/overview should be relatively easy for you. Certainly it would be simpler than our back-and-forth where my efforts don't quite make it in.
Thanks for all your thoughtful comments on this issue! --68.205.145.167 18:33, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
i think it's much better. you're starting to get a real handle on NPOV. if you're happy with it, i'd suggest you put it in and let others tweak it from there. BTW, your suggestion to search google for "constitutional crisis watergate" is incorrect on two counts. first, i'm aware that it's quite trendy to say "constitutional crisis" in many situations, including watergate, so it gives me no useful information (i'm a constitutional purist, and find the term laughable as it's normally used). second, if one were trying to correlate the term with watergate, the simplest search to start with would be '"constitutional crisis" watergate'. with the search string you suggested, it could theoretically return 15 million hits, none of which contains the phrase "constitutional crisis". but that's just a side comment. unless there are major objections, you should throw that new intro in and let the wolves have at it. i don't think anybody will strike this version. SaltyPig 05:21, 14 July 2005 (UTC)


OK Salty, I added the two paragraphs in an "Overview" section. I am not wedded to every word of my text, but I do hope anyone editing it will at least keep the idea of an overview that provides a (very!) general outline/summary to help give context to all the chronological detail that follows.
Regarding "constitutional crisis". I am not wedded to the phrase except that it 1) has been used in the first sentence of this Watergate article for a long time and 2) it is a very short, IMHO accurate way to indicate why Watergate was an important event. For more info, see the Wikipedia "Constitutional crisis" article. I don't agree with all of the listed crises, but the definition is pretty good and I believe it applies very well to Watergate.
I Googled a number of search terms/phrase combinations, in trying to find any results where it was claimed that Watergate was not a constitutional crisis. I could not find a single one. I did find many results which said Watergate was a constitutional crisis. This is why I am confident that the phrase is an accurate, non-POV, commonly-used description.
Thanks again for your feedback; it has helped greatly. --68.205.145.167 04:41, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
you're welcome, though you've once again misunderstood my objection to "constitutional crisis". further, it is fallacious to conclude that common usage guarantees NPOV, for it's when a term is commonly used that NPOV is most easily violated. fifty million elvis fans can't be POV? i won't even touch the implications of your google search for sites claiming that watergate wasn't a constitutional crisis.
every day in the modern US is a constitutional crisis; the watergate scandal was simply an abnormal (not abnormally extreme) one. i understand that my position will never prevail at the trendy wikipedia, so i'm not realistically suggesting it be removed -- only that it not be trumpeted like some magic phrase with an implied weight in excess of actual. it is mostly a meaningless term for those who read and understand the constitution, and it's overused -- probably because its alliterative. BTW, is it so terrible to log in to wikipedia? you're conversing with me like i know who 68.205.145.167 is. i don't. SaltyPig 08:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
i just saw your edit summary essentially claiming that i'd signed off on your addition as NPOV. that is incorrect. i made a comment about your improvement in that regard (after merely skimming it), but made no serious POV check of your material. if you're going to claim i did something, please make it accurate. better still, take responsibility for your additions. hell, you actually requested that i add it! not a chance would i add that. SaltyPig 08:27, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


Salty, sorry I forgot to log in earlier. I was not trying to hide or anything. I apologize for implying that you signed off or approved or agreed with the 2-paragraph overview. I have removed it and am sorry for not understanding your position. --Pmurph5 12:35, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "for" template?

i'm curious why the watergate hotel link at the start of the article was changed from a template with parms to a literal link. i can't find any information on the "for" template. is there an advantage to having it? why was it removed? SaltyPig 01:31, 2005 May 2 (UTC)

[edit] psychologist or psychiatrist?

"(rv vandalism - ellsberg is not a psychiatrist. Go to the article and find out.)" ~ Stevey7788

couple of things: nobody called ellsberg a psychiatrist, and advising somebody to go to a wikipedia article to find out what the article should say is a little... out there?

i thought the edit was vandalism, but i googled it, and it appears more people, including the washington post, say that the office broken into was ellsberg's psychiatrist, not psychologist. please provide external confirmation for your position, or i'm going to change it back. thanks. i'm more skeptical of the previous edit (re "current" analysis of the tapes) than that one. SaltyPig 22:20, 2005 May 15 (UTC)


Lewis J. Fielding was a psychiatrist, I checked Silent Coup and Will and both refer to Fielding as a psychiatrist. Also, I noted on the American Psychiatric Association had a notice of his death in 1996 although it just had the name, "Lewis J. Fielding MD", I'm fairly certain it's the same Lewis J. Fielding. --Wgfinley 23:36, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jean Baudrillard Paragraph at the bottom

I find that the whole paragraph is irrelevant to the *facts* of the case, and not particularly *encyclopedic*, as it is mostly specious philosophic jargon. Since this article isn't "my baby" i'm not going to remove it, but consider this a definite VOTE FOR REMOVAL:

"Jean Baudrillard in 1981, commented on the scandal, and saw it as an example of third-order hyperreality. For instance, in his book dealing with simulacra he says that "It is always a question of proving the real through the imaginary, proving truth through scandal, proving the law through transgression, proving work through striking, proving the system through crisis." In other words, our political systems are corrupt, and these major scandals are just a grandiloquent scheme to proclaim and maintain Western ideas of justice and morality. These schemes however, are intended as simulations. This is a view that has provoked much discussion."

Themindset 00:00, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

despite not being a big philosophy jargon guy, i have recently enjoyed some of the more solid aspects of "hyperreality" theories and observations. still, i agree with you; very much out of place in this article, except perhaps as a one-liner with a link, far away from the core of the article. SaltyPig 01:08, 2005 May 18 (UTC)

[edit] Debate relevancy

In the "Aftermath" section it talks about Nixon not debating McGovern because he was ahead, and that this hasn't happened since. How is this connected to Watergate? --Holdek (talk) 15:46, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

both happened on the same planet? yank it. SaltyPig 20:25, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC)
The fact there was no debate in '72 and Watergate has no relevance. JFK and Nixon debated in '60, then for the next dozen years, presidential debates died. They returned in '76 and have been conducted ever since. - Hoshie.Crat 21:26, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pardon and guilt

i made major changes to the following: "Nixon proclaimed his innocence until his death, although his acceptance of the pardon implied otherwise in the eyes of many: accepting a presidential pardon is voluntary and constitutes a legal admission of guilt, as opposed to a commutation of sentence, which cannot be denied since legal guilt is established at the time of conviction."

in research, i found nothing supporting the claim that accepting a presidential pardon constitutes a legal admission of guilt. to the contrary:

  • the supreme court, writing in Ex Parte Garland, "A pardon reaches both the punishment prescribed for the offence and the guilt of the offender; and when the pardon is full, it releases the punishment and blots out of existence the guilt, so that in the eye of the law the offender is as innocent as if he had never committed the offence. If granted before conviction, it prevents . . . the penalties and disabilities consequent upon conviction from attaching; if granted after conviction, it removes the penalties and disabilities, and restores him to all his civil rights; it makes him, as it were, a new man, and gives him a new credit and capacity."
  • gerald ford, 1974: "Was the acceptance of the pardon by the President an admission of guilt? The acceptance of a pardon, I think, can be construed by many, if not all, as an admission of guilt."
  • gerald ford autobiography: "His resignation was an implicit admission of guilt, and he would have to carry forever the burden of his disgrace."

the only place i found the claim that the pardon was a legal admission of guilt was this article, or sites that use this article's text. based on that and the information listed above, i removed the claim, and its associated comparison of a "commutation of sentence", which i find irrelevant even were the pardon a legal admission of guilt. a presidential pardon of a convicted party is not a "commutation of sentence". SaltyPig 10:46, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

[edit] burglary analysis

Cfs-news, i got your email about your recent change. i think you've made a bad assumption though: i didn't revert your addition before; i edited it way down. i agreed that what you were saying is important. it's there! please discuss here what important information is added by the new paragraph that isn't contained (for the last week or so) in the previous paragraph. thanks. and perhaps more important, please remember that insertions should be checked for flow. it appears you didn't read the previous paragraph when inserting yours today. if you'd like help reading/analyzing page histories (it can get weird sometimes), please email me again. your original contribution was not removed, but simply edited. that was explained in my edit summary, and visible in the diff link for that action. SaltyPig 11:40, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

also, please note the recent addition of an enhanced overview at the beginning, which covers a new sentence you added to your prior version. SaltyPig 11:47, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

[edit] Date of the (second) Watergate burglary

I changed the stated date of the Watergate burglary from June 16, 1972 to June 17.

There may be confusion as to when the burglary started (late the evening of June 16?). However, the burglars were arrested at approximately 2:30 am on June 17 1972, and this is the date I see most often. For example, a Google search for watergate burglary "june 17" shows 9,040 results; a search for watergate burglary "june 16" shows only 504 results.

BTW, as the Wikipedia article states, this was the second Watergate burglary. The first was May 28, 1972. On June 8, G. Gordon Liddy gave logs from the wiretaps to Jeb Magruder, with the intent to show them to John Mitchell. On June 9, Magruder said the taps were inadequate, so a second break-in was scheduled for the June 16-17 evening. (I do not know if Mitchell ever saw the logs.) For a good chronology of the first break-in and its results, see http://www.bjornetjenesten.dk/teksterdk/watergate.htm

the problem though is that the date given in the article isn't always for when the burglars were arrested; in the burglary section, it's for when frank wills first noticed the tape on the door. i might be wrong, but something sticks in my mind about that being 11-something at night (or possibly earlier). i think the article should specify times, or try to find a way around the confusion/inaccuracy. SaltyPig 18:04, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)
probably safe to say the burglary began 8/16. still nothing on when tape was first seen, but there's info here: "McCord went into the Watergate very early in the evening. He walked right through the front door of the office complex, signed the book, and, I'm sure, went to the eighth floor as he had before. Then he taped the doors from the eighth floor to the bottom floor and walked out through the exit door in the garage. It was still very early, and we were not going to go in until after everyone left the offices. We waited so long that Eduardo went out to check if the tapes were still there. He said they were but when we finally got ready to go in, Virgilio and Sturgis noticed that the tape was gone, and a sack of mail was at the door." SaltyPig 18:17, 2005 Jun 10 (UTC)

[edit] Bay of Pigs thing

Interesting that there's no reference at all in this article to the many allegations of a deeper conspiracy behind what came to light in Watergate. Crucial to this is Nixon's instruction to blackmail the CIA over "the whole Bay of Pigs thing," a deliberate code for the Kennedy Assassination. I propose a separate article: "Watergate theories." -- James

Watergate alternative theories would be better.-- Anon
How about Watergate conspiracy theories? I know it was a conspiracy, but a conspiracy theory is not the same as the description of a conspiracy. John G Walker 17:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Needs Massive Cleanup

Someone completely sabotaged this entry. When I looked at it today, there were no links to other resources, no headings, and many spelling and typographical errors. The first thing I did was to put up the clean-up template and I edited the text and fixed it up a little. Much of the contradictory material and mistakes remain; I'll leave it up to someone else to fix those. Webdinger 10 Sep 05

[edit] Mark Felt shouldn't be in the first paragraph of the article.

The inclusion of the Mark Felt/Deep throat aspect of the story in the lead paragraph of the article is not right. It is only a tiny part of a very big and broad story. I understand that the recent revelation has made a splash and everyone including me wanted to know who deep throat was, but to imply that the Deep Throat angle was more than a footnote to a much larger story is just silly.

Woodward and Bernstein were only one of many investigations that shed light on the issue and Deep Throat was only one of their sources. This implies that it was the Deep Throat angle that cracked the case or some such thing wheras it's clear that had there been no deep throat the result would have been much the same.

My suggestion would be to move the Felt/Deep throat bit should be moved back into the body of the article where it belongs.


Editdroid 03:00, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Woodward and Bernstein were only one of many investigations that shed light on the issue and Deep Throat was only one of their sources.

I agree. The Washington Post coverage, while ground-breaking and somewhat influential in the FBI investigation was not the only excellent and timely coverage of this event. Ukulele 06:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What caused Watergate?

As a reader that I don't know too many details about the case, I feel that there is one piece missing from the article. That is, what exactly were the burglars looking for when breaking in? Is there any evidence on that? There must have been something that Nixon thought was very very serious, and was really afraid of it. Probably information he was afraid that was available to the other side. Otherwise they wouldn't take such an extreme risk, compromising the whole campaign. Please educate me if anyone has more information on the issue. -- Peter

Good point. Nowhere does it say in the article that the burglars broke in to plant bugs, not to steal. Nor does it state anywhere that the burglary was the end point of a long project to ensure that Nixon ran against a weak Democratic presidential candidate in '72. This latter point is the key fact about the burglary, without which nothing else makes sense. This should, in fact, be in the introduction. John G Walker 17:33, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree its a good point that the article lacks this context. "...plant bugs, not steal" - Well they were looking for "damaging information" on Ellsberg in his psychiatrists office. Not 'stealing' in the sense of looking for goods, but in trying to dig up dirt. In court, its still called 'burglary.' -St|eve 18:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The burglers were exactly looking for a list of available prostitutes from a Washington DC call-girl ring in the desk of Ida "Maxie" Wells. This list had John Dean's (then) girlfriend, Maureen Biner as one of the prostitutes. The Watergate burglers were to secure the list with Ms. Biner's name on it and subsitute a list without her name on it. Maureen Biner eventually married John Dean.

Okay, we all know the concept above regarding prostitutes is complete nonsense. I added details on the leading theory regarding motive which is related to Nixon's desire to find out what DNC Chairman Larry O'Brien knew about his brother's financial mis-dealings with Howard Hughes (O'Brien was a former top aide to H Hughes.) The reason it probably was left out of previous versions of the article is that the coverup was very succesful in many respects and the evidence for the above was only revealed years later in the exhaustive research contained in Nixon: The CD-ROM. The article also avoided the question of who approved the break-in ahead of time. (Most agree that Nixon likely did not know about plans to break into the Watergate, but would not have objected either.) So who did know? Dean's sealed testimonydeposition taken prior to the public phase of the Senate Watergate Committee hearings sits in the Senate Archives in Washington D.C. -- Dean's statement, which was basically missed by the Senate Watergate Committee lawyer's, clearly names the DNC as one of the targets discussed in the first Gemstone Plan meeting. Dean did not attend the second meeting when a scaled-down version of the plan was approved. Nevertheless, his sworn testimony coincides with the long held belief that Mitchell approved the break-in and targeting of the DNC headquarters at the Watergate. Glenn4pr 04:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I've recently posted the Watergate first break-in page. It directly addresses motive and origins for what has come to be know as Watergate, and covers the purported first break-in in detail. Since the 17 June 1972 event when the men were apprehended ostensibly was to fix problems and failures of the 28 May 1972 "first break-in," a study of that page might address some of the questions raised here. I've also edited the Watergate page to make it a disambiguation page linking to the "Watergate first break-in" and to this "Watergate scandal" page. Hope this helps. Huntley Troth 02:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hunt and burglary error

How could chapstic mics be used by Howard Hunt "during the burglary" while he did not actually participate? (picture)

You must be confusing Hunt with Liddy, Hunt was with the black bag crew, Liddy was observing/directing from outside. --Wgfinley 20:56, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Long lost section due to old vandalism

Check this diff to see a section that was blanked Oct. 05 and never reverted back. Perhaps some of you may wish to put some of this back into the article. — TheKMantalk 06:36, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Totally Obscure

This article is not clear at all. There is no real overview at the beginning, and no clarity of expression to help the reader. In the first section the reader should know all the main details of the events, most importantly, why were they breaking into the Watergate at all? To replace wiretaps? What wiretaps? Have a look, it's almost wilfully unclear, assuming a tremendous amount of prior knowledge of the reader. I don't know much about the scandal, and after reading this article I can confidently say my knowledge has barely increased at all, only my confusion. FreeMorpheme 15:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Books

I've created a references section with a first title.--Wetman 05:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference to Wilbur Mills

The reference to Wilbur Mills in the Aftermath section says that the drunk-driving incident was what (directly) prompted his resignation. However, looking around a little bit, I could easily tell that it was only what brought his wrong-doings to widespread notice, which soon became a media scandal. Then, other incidents of intoxication and further dealings with his mistress (apparently involuntarily held) led to his decline in popularity as a 'good' congressman. In other words, the media coverage of the drunk-driving incident did show the media's increased aggressiveness, but it did not (as I see it) cause his resignation.

Anonymous - if you can find a reference to that in an article or something, go ahead and add it. Otherwise we can't really put that in, even though it's logical. --Awiseman 15:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, this is kooolcow here =P didn't know how to put signature... but yea, the main reference i found was in http://www.hench.net/2003/Mills.htm. Still very new to this so I don't know how to add references and other nifty things. Any help? --DNA 08:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abuse of power and the Vietnam War

Cut from intro:

The term "Watergate" refers to a series of events, spanning from 1972 to 1975, that began with U.S. President Nixon's administration's abuse of power toward the goal of undermining the Democratic Party and the opposition to the Vietnam War. The events got their name from burglaries of the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in the Watergate Hotel complex in Washington, D.C..

I deleted the "struck out" part. It asserts that Nixon abused his power (which I actually agree he did, but needs a source).

It also mentions opposition to the Vietnam War in a puzzling way. Was this phrase meant to imply that Nixon used unlawful means to suppress anti-war activism, and that he found (or was looking for) information relevant to this suppression?

Let's fix this sentence, and then put it back in. --Uncle Ed 21:33, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Secret Bombing of Cambodia

That could have been included in the Articles of Impeachment, and it was pretty bad, including submitting false reports to Congress. Except, we always cut our leaders slack in matters of war and peace. It's like we lack the language for discussing these matters. We're afraid we might be being unpatriotic, we're afraid we might be perceived as being unpatriotic. We're afraid anything we say is just going to make things worse. This applies to ordinary citizens. And it also seems to apply to members of Congress. FriendlyRiverOtter 04:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nixon and his income taxes

This is the one that really surprises me. For this is one people instinctually and immediately understand. Richard Nixon cheated on his own taxes and at the same time he used the IRS as a club against political opponents. Wow!

One of the Watergate prosecutors, I think it was Leon Jaworski said the income tax thing really registered on the emotional Richter scale at the time, but tended to be forgotten later because it was not including in the Articles of Impeachment. And as the person pointed out above, when Nixon famously said "I am not a crook," it was in references to his taxes.

Now, if you read the Articles of Impeachment, they are pretty general. But they do include some specific things like the break-in at Dr. Fielding's office. FriendlyRiverOtter 04:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

I figure you lot ought to know, in the Nixon tapes, who is Nixon referring to when he talks of Colson, Shaprio and Bittman? Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 21:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Aftermath

The following sentence in the Aftermath section: "Presidents since Franklin Roosevelt had recorded many of their conversations, but after Watergate this general practice ended, at least as far as the public knows." has an extremely speculative, non-encyclopedic tone, IMO. Should I be bold? Opinions, please. Lost Number 12:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Right, changed it to something more neutral; I lack the in-depth knowledge of the subject to make a more authoritative edit, so please feel free to improve. Lost Number 11:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hacking

Please note that someone has hacked the "Watergate" article. Note references to sexual practices by "Muffin" throughout. Clearly, someone simply doesn't have enough to do.

[edit] in the media?

A number of tenuous references to "Watergate in the Media" have been added, some simply minor parodies on the name "Deep Throat." I find most of these don't meet the standard of notability. Any responses? --Grahamtalk/mail/e 08:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

i agree that many, and perhaps too many, references to 'deep throat' are in this section. in fact, lynard skynard's song 'sweet home alabama' makes more of a reference to the scandal than those parodies u mentioned, with the lyrics "now watergate does not bother me." but the reality is, most people wouldn't know this phrase/name from any other source. people who know about the scandal and remember the name, will know what event is being indirectly referred to when this name is mentioned in the media. it's the same situation when the names 'john wilks booth' and 'aaron burr' are mentioned.4.230.174.188 01:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Watergate

It seems that this article lacks explanation of many of the people and events (for example, Pentagon papers and Daniel Ellsberg) listed on the template:watergate. Perhaps these people are mentioned in the subarticles, but their inclusion in the highly condensed template suggests that they are important enough to be included in the longer article. On the other hand, if they are not important enough to be in the article, they should be removed from the template. Personally, I can't make a judgement on their notability per se; I am just saying that there is an inconsistency between the article and the template, as what should be on the template should also be in the article. --JianLi 20:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


lol someone just edited that osama bin laden is behind this >.>


[edit] Confusion

So me and my friends forked our swim coaches yard the night before our biggest meet of the year, and he sat by the window and knew the whole time we were coming. he says he knew because he studied the watergate scandal. does anybody get it? - Crion 20:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

  • seems to me there's a "spy in the house", meaning someone on your team is feeding him information (see Deep Throat). ProfL 20:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Results

If this is an article about a "scandal," then who was convicted exactly of what and how long they served (or other 'punishment') is the whole crux of the article. As it stands, that is very vague, and only by digging are SOME of the peoples' convictions/resignations apparent. How about a "list"/conclusion at the end that addresses this?

BTW, this article and related articles are not very consistant.... (Serkul 03:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Confusion of dates?

I'm extremely confused with the dates in the article (for I'm new to the event itself), especially in "The tapes" section. For example, it starts with (note the year),

  • ...were broadcast from May 17, 1974 to August 7, 1974, causing devastating...

then goes on with,

  • On July 13, 1974, Donald Sanders...

and the confusing part begins in sub-section Saturday Night Massacre,

  • ...led to the "Saturday Night Massacre" on October 20, 1973, when Nixon compelled...
  • ...managing editors at Walt Disney World in Florida on November 17, 1973...

If you'd read the section as a whole, they seem to be in chronological order, until one takes a closer look at the dates. Do take a look, thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.255.238.198 (talk) 16:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

You are right: I'll take a look. Extremely sexy 18:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mike Gravel?

Why is Mike Gravel's name on the "Watergate" template? Could we get a "citation needed" on there, or something? (unsigned comment)

I have already asked this question in Template_talk:Watergate. So far no response. I'm going to wait for some time before I remove it. MDfoo 11:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oval Office Recording Device

The article states that this question to Alexander Butterfield was asked by Donald Sanders. However, I have listened to and watched the tapes and the question - "were you aware of any listening devices in the oval office of the president" was asked by Fred Thompson, who of course is now in the news as a potential presidential candidate. This should be modified to state that Thompson asked the question, not Sanders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.46.252 (talk)

That is indeed correct. Extremely sexy 13:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually Donald Sanders asked this question behind a closed-doors preliminary hearing and not before the Senate Watergate committee, where Fred Thompson posed the question. I believe the section has since been re-written to reflect this. Ukulele (talk) 03:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attribution for Nine men involved?

Why is there suddenly nine men involved in the Watergate burglaries when police only apprehended five men. Attribution is needed for this section. I have added a template to to the article to facilitate finding this section. --FR Soliloquy 15:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The text lists five men and then states that there were two accomplices. That makes seven. This edit changed it from seven to nine without comment. It probably should be changed back to seven. And I don't know who the two accomplices are. MDfoo 16:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the ugly template. Reverted the aforementioned edit and left a simple (attribution required) on the section concerning the two accomplices. I also placed a citation required a little further down within the text. Thank you MDfoo for you constructive comments. --FR Soliloquy 18:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] White House horrors merging

Someone has placed a tag on White House horrors suggesting to merge it into this article. I agree. I don't know enough about the subject to do it myself, however. I think it could possibly just be a two line mention in this article, and then that's it. What do you people think?Lilac Soul 13:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I do also agree. Extremely sexy 00:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I think a mention of crimes and abuses, linking to a separate article would be appropriate for the main Watergate article, but since the list is quite long and currently lacking proper citation, it would be best to keep it separate. This is such a complex event and there are so many articles linking to and from the main article-- many of them completely lacking any citation of sources. Cleaning up all Watergate-related articles will require a tremendous effort and a lot of time. I would really like to see this main article tight and clean, as this is essentially a portal for this salient and galvanizing event. Since there is no discussion at all on the White House Horrors article, I would like to remove the request to merge. If there are no objections in a week or so, I will do so boldly Ukulele 06:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other "-gates"

I really don't think we need to include all the other things called "-gate" in here. I'm going to leave a few major ones and take out the rest. --AW 15:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Is this a wise move, man? Extremely sexy 00:56, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sirica suspected break in was wider in scope

Citation was requested for the statement that Sirica "suspected a conspiracy involving higher-echelon government officials." I Added a cite from John J. Sirica, the judge of the Watergate burglary trial. Taken from page 56 of his book, To set the record straight: the break-in, the tapes, the conspirators, the pardon. Also removed the request for citation. Quote from page 56 of Sirica's book below:

There were still simply too many unanswered questions in the case. By that time, thinking about the break-in and reading about it, I'd have had to be some kind of moron to believe that no other people were involved. No political campaign committee would turn over so much money to a man like Gordon Liddy without someone higher up in the organization approving the transaction. How could I not see that? These questions about the case were on my mind during a pretrial session in my courtroom December 4.

Ukulele 03:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pentagon Papers and the Ellsberg "plumbers" operation.

I feel that some brief mention should be given to the publication of the Pentagon Papers, Nixon's reaction, and the resulting "plumbers" break-in to his psychiatrist's office.

Nixon and Kissinger's reaction to the publication of the Pentagon Papers, and the supporting decision of the Supreme Court for allowing the Press to publish the excerpts, represents a fundamental shift in how Nixon felt the Executive office should control information-- the press was out to get him and his court would not stop it. This event led directly to the creation of the "plumbers" unit-- to stop the leaks that could embarrass and potentially threaten the Vietnam war Paris peace negotiations, as well as endanger Nixon secret negotiations with Russia and China. The impending Moscow summit was at stake, as well as his further hopes of détente, and the tenuous opening into China. Both Nixon and Kissinger agreed that the US would lose a good deal of credibility with other world powers if leaks of this magnitude continued. The motives of these men in this regard are well-documented, {citations easily provided by the players themselves} and the results of White House's reaction ultimately led to crimes and abuses from which the President could not recover. The pentagon papers is an important event in the unfolding of the broad scandal of Watergate and should be included to some degree.

The "plumbers" operation of the break-in of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office with the specific intent to find information to discredit him publicly, elegantly draws the thread from intent to abuse to crime.

Writing a comprehensive history of complicated event such as the Watergate Scandal within the constraints of a Wikipedia article is about making choices. Every documentary I have seen and every book I have read about this event speaks at length, (or makes proper mention within the context of the Watergate Scandal) about the leak of the Pentagon Papers and the Ellsberg break-in, and its role in the history of the event. I think it would be a good choice.

Ukulele 06:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Media and fiction

I moved this large section off to its own new article The Watergate scandal in popular culture. GhostPirate 23:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this was a good choice. the Fiction section is large, and this main page is already a bit cumbersome. Ukulele 02:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From Jim Hougan...

Wikipedia's Watergate article contains numerous errors, perhaps because it is heavily biased toward the received version of the affair, as reported by the Washington Post, John Dean and academicians such as Stanley Kutler.
Because the subject is one on which I have spent a great deal of investigative effort (I wrote a book about the affair, entitled "Secret Agenda"), I thought I would test Wikipedia's receptiveness to the correction of factual errors in a politically sensitive topic. Accordingly, I tried to correct an assertion in the article's first paragraph, where the claim is made that "...this burglary was just one of many illegal activities authorized and carried out by Nixon's staff."
While it is true that Nixon's staff carried out any number of illegal activities, the Watergate break-in was not one of them. Howard Hunt, Gordon Liddy and James McCord were responsible for carrying out the operation, but we still don't know who actually authorized it. Jeb Magruder, John Dean and John Mitchell are likely candidates, but proof is lacking in each case, and so this very important issue remains unresolved. By failing to acknowledge this, the Wikipedia article closes avenues of discussion that, in the interests of truth, ought to remain open.
So, too, and contrary to the assertion that I have quoted, it is not true that the burglary was "carried out by (anyone on) Nixon's staff." On the contrary. When the Watergate break-ins occurred, Gordon Liddy and James McCord were attached to the Committee to Re-Elect the President (CRP). Howard Hunt was employed by the Robert R. Mullen Company, a CIA front. Frank Sturgis and the Cubans had no direct connection to the Administration at any time
As I recall, the edit I suggested was a simple one: changing "Nixon's staff" to "Nixon loyalists." ("Ostensible Nixon loyalists" would have been even more accurate, but I suspect that would have been seen as argumentative.)
Despite the simplicity of the suggested edit, which served to correct a mistatement of fact, the edit was undone by one "Ukelele."
I think that's unfortunate. I like Wikipedia, but fear that its utility is undermined by contributors who are content to sacrifice accuracy to a political point of view. Accordingly, I suspect any effort to correct the Wikipedia article on Watergate (and other sensitive topics) is probably a waste of time. Good luck, in any case. Jimhougan 17:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)Jim Hougan

Mr. Hougan, it was not my intent to sacrifice accuracy to a political point of view. The statement you edited, and I reverted attempts to place the second break-in in a larger context of crimes and abuses-- which were indeed authorized and carried out by Nixon's staff. Perhaps the statement is written awkwardly and both our points could be better represented in the lead-in. Ukulele 06:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CREEP

"CREEP" is a pejorative term, the Committee was referred to as "CRP," for the same reason that we don't have a Federal Investigation Bureau. As much as we all loved calling it "CREEP," in a neutral article that term should not be used unless noted as being the pejorative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.203.117 (talk) 11:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, though "CREEP" was used by critics of the Committee and the term was used pretty commonly. I think a simple cited mention of this would enough, and any further references to the Committed in the body of this article should use the correct abbreviation, CRP. Ukulele (talk) 21:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fix the Vandalism!

Look next to the section "Saturday Night Massacre". How the hell did that get in there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.200.154 (talk) 08:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I honestly do not see what you are trying to point out. Could you provide an example of the vandalism? Brothejr (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Forrest Gump

Should there be a reference to this in the popular culture section ? Machete97 (talk) 16:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a Popular Culture section ? there are probably a million and one references to this in films etc. Machete97 (talk) 16:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)