Talk:Warsaw Pact

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An event in this article is a March 31 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)


Contents

[edit] Yugoslavia in Warsaw Pact? No way, never happened!

I would like to draw attention to the fact that Yugoslavia was never ever a member of the Warsaw Pact. Never at all. Before making any edits, I suggest more research, but this is an undisputed fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.164.230 (talk) 08:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

This is true. Yugoslavia was a member of the Eastern Bloc, but broke defence relations with the USSR in 1948, seven years before the Warsaw pact was signed. For a good translation of the Warsaw pact, see Yale: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/intdip/soviet/warsaw.htm The preamble lists the signing nations, which (of course) does not include Yugoslavia or Finland. I've removed the references to Yugoslavia as a member -- it's still mentioned in the text as ceasing to exist in 1991, in a section that's blatant opinion without any references, but that's a war for others to fight. Mods: That Yugoslavia and Finland were never members of the Warsaw pact is not disputable in any way, shape or form. If anyone disputes this, let them provide references. The Warsaw pact itself was pretty clear about who the members were.

Some facts here are not true.

In 1991, many Eastern European citizens were tired of communist rule, and they overthrew their governments. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Albania, East Germany, Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria all overthrew their governments.

Yugoslavia never had overthrew of communist governmens. And in the period from 1948 to 1956 Yugoslavia has reacived a lot weapones from America (300 Patton II tanks, 100 F-84 jets, 600 Sherman tanks....) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.101.74.210 (talk) 09:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.75.16.254 (talk) 05:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

"The Warsaw pact fell apart after the communist regimes in Eastern Europe were overthrown in 1989 and the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991."

The article there already says the Soviet Union collapsed in '89. I can't recall for certain and don't have the time to look it up right now.

-I know for sure that the Soviet Union was dissolved on December 25th, 1991. The other eastern European countries pulled out of the Warsaw pact somtime between September 1989 and December 1991. Maybe the pact itself was officially put to rest at some point, but I'm not sure of that.

--- The Russian action in the Hungarian was a unilateral action. I believe the only action was in the Prague Spring.

Something needs to be done to stop the vandelism of this page - James Anatidae, Oct. 24, 2003

[edit] Flag or official symbol of the Warsaw Pact

Is it true that the Warsaw Pact has no flag or symbol?

I actually read on a site, the the WP doesn't have a flag, but I just can't believe it.

Is there any way to get a clearer image of the unoffical seal of the Pact?

I would like to see a better image, because in it's current state it's almost useless. SovietCanuck 21:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russia

"The Warsaw Pact was dominated by the Soviet Union." is POV. Just take a look at the NATO page, no one would ever put such a thing on the NATO page. Things are not going to be held to a different standard for communist countries. And don't give me any nonsense over changing the NATO pages, if you feel that way, you do it, I'm editing here.


Countries weren't allowed to leave NATO, as US policy documents spell out clearly, particulary concerning Italy where there were invasion plans if the PCI took over the government (as almost happened in 1948 before massive interference from the US, as well as 1976). And Albania did leave the Warsaw Pact, so the ide athat countries couldn't leave is being removed. "The Soviet Union reserved the right to define "socialism" and "capitalism" as it saw fit" is more POV nonsense.

And for some reason Janos Kadar is not mentioned in this article pertaining to Hungary.

Compared to the NATO article this is utter and complete nonsense. I will use that as my guide, and in light of that this article is full of anti-USSR POV. Ruy Lopez 20:42, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)


This comment strikes me as being rather POV: eg using "nonsense" three times. The Soviet Union did dominate the Warsaw Pact far more than the USA has NATO.

What US policy documents - and was the US intervention in Italy (influencing the election in 1948 etc) done as part of a NATO exercise?

They didn't invade Albania for seceding because they'd have to go through Yugoslavia which wasn't in the Warsaw Pact.

[edit] What exactly happened on March 31, 1991 to say that the Warsaw Pact came to an end ?

The pact came to an end on 1991 March 31 and was officially dissolved at a meeting in Prague on 1991 July 1. ...

It's not clear in the article what exactly happened on March 31, 1991 to say that the Warsaw Pact "came to an end". Would anyone experts care to elaborate, please ? Thanks. -- PFHLai 08:45, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)

There has been a conference of Warsaw treaty memer countries delegates in Moscow on that day, but I do not have any closer information about it... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 147.213.138.3 (talk) 14:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] More expert insight on this topic needed

I would really like to know what this warsaw pact was all about. What is the relevance of the news rumour to the post warsaw era? If there is one it isn't evident. And what is chea? What in NATO actually made the eastern block massively come together to sign the warsaw pact. The information from the article seems incomplete. This really does seem like POV, even the comments...

[edit] Missing info on most important facets of WP

What is missing from the article is info about Central command for all armies, about standardization of armament and amunition, about centralized planning for armament production, about bases of Soviet Union in WP countries.

Current text covers only global politics and trivia. Pavel Vozenilek 00:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] East Germany

With Germany being reunited, East Germany's membership with the Warsaw Pact ended. (source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Warschauer_Vertrag, http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/1990/) The previous version of the article contained an error by stating that Germany was a member both of NATO and the Warsaw Pact (no, we were not, but we still had Soviet Troops stationed in East Germany after reunification)

I found some info, saying that East German 7th tank division and 11th armored division were prepared but not given orders to enter Czechoslovakia (Rudiger Wenzke in "Prager Fruhling - Prager Herbst", 1990). However I remember that one eyewitness saw German tank mistakenly crossing the border - this was source of confusion. Pavel Vozenilek 19:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Why does the picture "NATO_vs_Warsaw_(1949-1990).png" display East Germany beeing a member of the Warsaw Treaty since 1956???

As I know, it signed along with all other founding countries on May 14 1955... I only have a czech version (of the treaty text) link (http://referaty.atlas.sk/vseobecne-humanitne/dejepis/4695/varsavska-zmluva---uplne-znenie), but I am shure there must be translations on web somewhere... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 147.213.138.3 (talk) 15:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC).


Was this funny poster "35 years Warsaw Pact" (that would mean spring 1990) ever published? I mean, it talks of "invincible" and sports East Germany as proud member, at a time when the GDR was collapsing and ready to be absorbed by West Germany...can´t imagine that somebody would take this poster serious. Hansi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.253.211.143 (talk) 13:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legality of the W Pact

Should the fact that by creating the Warsaw Pact, the USSR violated various treaties, including, for e.g., the YYA Treaty, be mentioned in this article? --HJV 20:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

This was likely the least of concerns of WP countries. Pavel Vozenilek 12:06, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Official Name

I believe the official name was the "Warsaw Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance." There is another Treaty called the "Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance" (FCMA) but that seems to have been signed on April 6, 1948, between Finland and the Sowjet Union (check http://countrystudies.us/finland/24.htm). Oh, and one more: Could it be that the "Warsaw Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance" is not the official name of the Warsaw Pact but rather (as the name suggests) the treaty establishing the military organization called the Warsaw Pact? Maybe somebody more familiar with this entry could have a look at this. Thanks :-)

If that were the real name it'd be quite ironic. I mean, the USSR broke the YYA Treaty(ie. the Soviet-Finnish Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance) when signing the Warsaw pact. The YYA treaty stated that none of the signatories was allowed to ally themselves with Germany, and USSR formed an alliance with East Germany ^_^--HJV 19:07, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The YYA treaty states that none of the signing parties would join any coallition threatening any of each. Since the TFCMA didn't threatten Findland USSR did nort break the YYA treaty by signing the Warsaw Pact. 189.141.62.84 03:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC) ZealotKommunizma

Warsaw Pact - Cold war name for Warsaw treaty!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.95.178 (talk) 08:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Monstrous Cold War template

This template got so huge that it made the article joke. I§d removed it, it is less then useless, IMO. Pavel Vozenilek 19:16, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text of the Treaty

Can anybody link to an online Russian version of the original Warsaw Pact treaty? If so put it at the list of links at the bottom.

[edit] bias article?

I think the word "pact" should not be used because it is a pejorative word. I also think that the threat from the point of view of the USSR and the other Warsaw Treaty members from NATO was quit real, I am not sure how militarization of the Warsaw treaty countries violated any conventions since the UN charter stated that the regional aliances are permited, I think that the statement that the Warsaw treaty countries up to 1980 were concerned only with attacking the "western" countries should be removed because we don't have all necessary archival information to make this judgement.


It was generally and colloquially known as the Warsaw Pact - look in books of the time: therefore a relavant name.

I checked in a 'reference book of 1989' which used the heading 'Warsaw Treaty Organisation or Warsaw Pact' (and equivalents occur elsewhere)

I think this settles the question by 'whomosoever' (though not necessarily an invalid question) Jackiespeel 17:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


In actuality, however, the organization served as a de facto tool for keeping control over countries which had been taken over by the Soviets after the Second World War and to permit military intervention against any attempts these other states took to free themselves of the political hegemony of their own Communist Parties. The Pact lasted throughout the Cold War until certain member nations began withdrawing in 1989, following the collapse of the Eastern Bloc and political changes in the Soviet Union.

This part shall be removed since it is not written in accordance to the NATO article. We are not interpret the reality however it suits us. The Warsaw Pact was created after the the re-militarization of Western Germany and the Formation of the NATO alliance. Otherwise we will be forced to write that the NATO alliance was established to ensure Capitalist hegemony in its member states.

[edit] Irrelevant info

'There were no black people...' Is this at all relevant?

[edit] Not reverting changes without first citing them.

Unlike you admins us non-users don't have access to a revert button so you people will always win the revert war. Anyway at least cite something you disagree with, thanks.

[edit] Albania's secession

How and why did Albania secede from the Warsaw Pact and ally with China without the USSR invading them like they did to Hungary in 1956 and Czechslovakia in 1968? I read it's because no Warsaw Pact member shared a border with Albania and to invade Albania they would have to go through Yugoslavia which was not in the Soviet sphere of influence. I've also read that the USSR decided not to invade Albania because they simply had no economic interest in that country. Anyone here know why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.103.81.226 (talk) 14:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Yes, in fact the Soviet Army had no possibility to intervene in the necessary scale. For putting down rebellious civilians (which surely would happen if the Red Army went in) and possible military resistance (which was expected), the Soviet Army considered a supply line overland as absolutely necessary. There was no way to reach Albania (surrounded by neutral and well-armed Yugoslavia and NATO-Member Greece) by land, any Naval invasion would not have been sufficient in scale and would rely on tolerance of NATO maritime forces (which controlled the western Mediterranean and could easily lock up the Adriatic Sea!) and an aerial invasion / air assault was out of question. No chance to invade - no invasion! (please excuse my bad English, I´m not a native speaker...)... Best Regards Hansi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.253.211.143 (talk) 08:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Little boxes

Can someone adjust the boxes at the end - as the last line of the linked topics section is partially obscured. Jackiespeel 18:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Illegal withdrawals

Shouldn't it be noted that Hungarian withdrawal from the Warsaw pact in 1956 (declared by Nágy, withdrawn few days later by Kádár) and Albanian withdrawal in 1968 were both against the Article 11 of the treaty which prohibited the member states to withdraw from the treaty for at least 20 years after acceding and were therefore illegal? Brunislav 08:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warsaw Pact vs Eastern Bloc

The articles essentially define "Warsaw Pact" and "Eastern Bloc" as the same thing. My dictionary says that "Warsaw Pact" has two meanings: the treaty or the countries.

Information about the group of countries should be merged with Eastern Bloc. This article should keep material specifically about the treaty. —Michael Z. 2007-08-05 07:16 Z

[edit] Opening explanation?

It might be just me, but does this

"Distinguish from the Warsaw Convention, which is an agreement about airlines' financial liability and the Treaty of Warsaw (1970) between West Germany and the People's Republic of Poland."

make sense as an intro to the article? Or is it meant to be instructions improperly tagged, or what? Darquis 06:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cows?

While reading, I was confused and beffudled to see an odd, seemingly foreign term in the opening paragraph. "In actuality, however, the organization served as a de facto tool for keeping control over ("cows") which had been taken over by the Soviets after the Second World War and to permit military intervention against any attempts these other states took to free themselves of the political hegemony of their own Communist Parties." The word Cow. I don't know if this has any significance at all to the Warsaw Pact. If it does belong, could someone write a possible explanation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.231.142 (talk) 00:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Official names of countries

I have a small issue with the names of the members of the WP. I believe that they should be called by their official names (People's...) to distinguish the past government from current existing political entities. I think this should be done in order to be correct since when we say "Hungary" today we mean the Republic of Hungary and not the People's Republic of Hungary. There is quite obviously a huge difference between those two entities. Just as the list doesn't contain Czech Republic and Slovakia but rather Czechoslovakia, the other countries should also be properly named. What do you think? JRWalko 00:57, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why the russian title?

Why do we give the Russian title of the treaty in the intro, but not the Polish, Czech, and German ones? The treaty was concluded in Warsaw, which is not in the Soviet Union, and it seems that copies of the treaty in either language were prepared, "all texts being equally authentic" [1]. The article on the comparably important Treaty of Rome does not even give any title except the english one, although this treaty also was originally not in English[2]. Yaan (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Was Finland a member?

The "Encarta", Microsoft's encyclopedia does not include Finland on the list of member countries! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.254.188.237 (talk) 12:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate Information

This article makes the Claim that The Hungarian Revolutionaries didnt want to/didnt withdraw from the Warsaw pact. This is untrue. They did a day before the Soviet Invasion.

71.183.43.47 (talk) 09:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Finland was never a member of the Warsaw Pact nor aspired to be one. Moreover, Finland has never had a communist government which was supposedly overthrown in 1993 (as the article states). I found the article to be utter nonsense and I would suggested comprehensive checking of the facts for the author. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.23.220 (talk) 14:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] F*cking terrible article

This reads like it was written by a pro-Soviet 9th grade history student trying to write about how things werent "all that bad" in the warsaw pact.

Look at the statements about Hungary Revolution and Prague Spring!?!! In both situations the Soviets end up invading and suppressing both movements.

Needs SERIOUS REVISION to be brought in line with the articles that deal with the individual events that make up th ecold war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.43.47 (talk) 09:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Besides those two things you mentioned life in the Warsaw Pact was fine. 70.59.6.195 (talk) 22:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs help.

I agree that this article comes no where near Wikipedia standards. I read this article a year or so ago, and don't remember it being anywhere near this bad. Many of the statements made appear to be no more than uneducated speculation at best. The article comes across as a pro-soviet biased piece. Opinion cited in Wikipedia articles should be cited as the opinion of historical or relevant figures, cite the general consensus of educated people (experts) or if no consensus exists, then opposing views should be included as such. Many of the uncited statements made in the article seem to be nothing more than personal opinion of a recent editor For example:

1.) "The Warsaw Pact nations cooperated much better than NATO ever has, and most historians say the Warsaw Pact could have defeated NATO in a war."

What should have followed this sentence is additional info explaining WHY this is true or why "most historians" believe it to be true. Nothing followed this statement. Its most glaring omission was a citation. I have read extensively on the Cold War and have rarely gotten the impression from even a few experts (much less "most") that the statement being made here can be substantiated. As a matter of fact, in some cases, I have read the exact opposite. This statement comes off as a personal wish of the person that wrote it.

2.) "In 1991, many Eastern European citizens were tired of communist rule, and they overthrew their governments. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Albania, East Germany, Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria all overthrew their governments."

Aside from the fact those statements are misleading or utterly untrue in the case of some nations, I find it hard to believe that In an article about the Warsaw pact that this is ALL that's mentioned on this topic. They all just simultaneously quit communism with nothing more to it than that? This sentence reads like it is being explained (incorrectly) to a fourth grade student. I love it when history is that neat and tidy. How bout in the American history article we write: " In the 1770's Americans unanimously decided the English were bad and kicked them out of the colonies." and just leave it at that. OR how bout: "The Great Schism occurred due to the fact that Christians of the East and West didn't see eye-to eye." and include no further explanation.

3.) "Benefitting from the wealth of data and lessons learned by the Red Army in WW2 the Warsaw Pact forces enjoyed significant advantage over their NATO opposite numbers.. All countries designed their own military hardware and had strong industry and economies. Their militaries were well-led and well-organized."

This is the entirety of the "MILITARY DOCTRINE" heading. Military doctrine of the Warsaw pact could probably be an entire series of books in it's own right, but instead we are again reading uncited, uneducated personal opinion that in at least one instance is completely untrue: ("All countries designed their own military hardware and had strong industry and economies") All of the Warsaw pact nations did not design their own military hardware and not all had strong or even healthy economies. This sounds like an entry into the "All Hail the Soviet-Bloc in 50 words or less" contest. And apparently, no other nation that was victorious in WWII learned any "lessons".

4.) "Warsaw Pact forces cooperated well together, much better than NATO forces could..[citation needed] This caused alarm to several NATO leaders.[4]."

Here is another gem from the article. The first part is devoid of citation. The second part actually has a citation attached to it. I read the article being cited and the citation is being blatantly misused. The article is about the instability along the Soviet-Polish border caused by the Polish Solidarity Crisis. The only mention of NATO in the article is a couple of sentences describing how they monitored the situation. The quote from the article attempts to make the reader believe that NATO was alarmed at how Warsaw Pact nations "cooperated well together", when in fact the article states (briefly) that NATO merely monitored a situation in Poland caused by internal strife. Not even on Mars are these 2 situations remotely the same.

5.) There are only 4 citations in this ENTIRE article.

I could go on and on...

There appear to be remnants of the original article which was more professionally written, but many sections of the article read like my 8th grade report on the Soviet Union and should be treated as such. UnHinged (talk) 05:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)