Talk:Wars of the Roses

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Contents

[edit] Graph

Pardon me, I temporarily removed this apparent non sequitur: "Forge ahead York! Forge ahead Lancaster!" Please correct my correction if I am missing something. Caltrop

How are you supposed to see names printed in white on a white background? Marnanel

I was wondering if that was just me... it's too bad -- it's a nice graph otherwise :-\ --Wolf530 19:24, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
The graph does not appear to be transparent either. User:Muriel Gottrop uploaded this version, would she have the original? (I left her a message on her user's discussion page) JeroenHoek 14:22, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The issue seems to have been solved in Jul 2004.

--Nicapicella 24 Apr 2005

[edit] Start date

I would have put the Battle of Shrewsbury (1403) as the decisive battle of the first phase of the wars of the Roses, which started Henry IV/Bolingbroke overthrew his cousin, the reigning king Richard II in 1399. Why is the period here defined to be after 1455? Could it be that the Tudors did not want to be reminded that Henry IV was an usurper?

Either which way I think that this article would be imporved if there was more on his reign and the civil war battles which took plave including a link to the Battle of Shrewsbury.Philip Baird Shearer 19:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, it seems kind of wrong that the "Wars of the Roses" would be called that if the whole rose-picking had not happened yet. It was a disute between King Henry VI of Lancaster and Richard, Duke of York, that led them to pluck the differently coloured roses that are associated to the two houses -- the name derives from this particular scene. Before of that there were no roses involved.
Also, the name contains the word "war", so I believe that the date of the beginning was chosen to be 1455 because it was this year, with the battle of St. Albans, that the armed conflict between the two families (well, actually they were one family stemming from King Edward III Plantagenet; it would be better to call them factions) began.
--Nicapicella 24 Apr 2005
(Late to the discussion, but it was Edmund Beaufort, Duke of Somerset who plucked the red rose.) john k 17:27, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Also, guys, just a reminder that the rose-plucking is fictional, while this article is about the historical (not Shakespearean) Wars of the Roses. AndyJones 08:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Longbow

The Wars were fought largely by armies of mounted knights and their feudal retainers.

So althought for most of the period the English longgaybow and archers, who were not feudal retainers because they were paid directly by the King, were decimating forign armies (eg at the Battle of Agincourt), at home it was "fought largely by armies of mounted knights". I think that this needs a review. Does any one know enough to do it. Philip Baird Shearer 19:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Information Box

This article could use an information box showing combatants, victor, and other things, like what we see in other war articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Jackson (talk • contribs)

  • I'm not sure. I can see that would work with an individual battle, but can you do it for an entire war? Who should we say won the Wars of the Roses? The Lancastrians because Henry Earl of Richmond won at Bosworth Field? Kind-of, but it's a bit of a shaky conclusion. Did you have a particular template in mind? AndyJones 08:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Key Females

I was just wondering how come some of the more important females weren't listed. In every book I've read about The War of the Roses, there seem to be many key females, yet here it only lists males. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.20.9.167 (talk • contribs)

  • It's a wiki. Go ahead and add them. Some of the more prominent female players (Elizabeth Woodville, Margaret of Anjou) are discussed in the body text. AndyJones 08:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Implications

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wars_of_the_Roses&diff=46137837&oldid=45607700

The previous edit before mine, had a misinformed idea. It said Lancastrians were south and west, while Yorkists were north and east. That's obviously anachronistic, because it makes it look like an Anglo-Saxon/Danish conflict. Factions pretty much wholly preceded those whom collided over constitutional issues during the English Civil War; the same issues and parties all over again! IP Address 08:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

When has Northwestern England ever been parliamentarian? When has Southeastern England ever been royalist? Similar sources of mediaevalism and reform, erupted in almost the exact same places...from Plantagenets to Tudors to Stuarts. I'm waiting for an author to make that book! IP Address 08:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The Lancastrians were clearly the northern party, and the Yorkists the southern. Note that, in addition to his own lands in Lancashire, Henry VI was supported by the Percies of Northumberland and the Cliffords of Cumberland (only the Nevills of Westmorland supported York of the great northern magnates, and the Earl of Westmorland seems to have himself been neutral in the earlier phases. It was his brother Salisbury and nephew Warwick, both of whom were mostly based further to the south, who were the Nevills most active in the Yorkist cause). On the other hand, York was supported by the City of London. I'm not sure where Anglo-Saxon/Danish or English Civil War issues come into it at all. john k 09:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The prior version made it seem like a carry-over from the Dark Age conflicts, so the error was corrected to approximate just what you said. You mistakenly reverted, without stated reason either. IP Address 09:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Am I mistaken in the idea that York was supported by the West Riding, if in any part of Yorkshire? It is such a large shire, but the outside perception is that they are country-honkies without internal diversity. I was latterly, stating the parallels between the Yorkist and Parliamentary parties. This is more or less accurate, yes? IP Address 09:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that revert was a mistake, my apologies. I'm not sure about York's support in Yorkshire. You'd imagine that he'd have to have had some lands there, given his title (back then titles were more closely connected to shires than they later became), but I don't really know. I'm not really sure about connections between the Yorkists and Parliamentary parties. Both had support from the southern urban population, but the issues involved are so different that it's hard to make comparisons. There were no real constitutional issues at stake in the Wars of the Roses. john k 17:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

No cite, but my recollection is that York got much more support in Wales and the Marches, from his subsidiary title of Earl of March, than he did in Yorkshire, and that he was essentially operating in hostile terrain when he got chopped at Wakefield. Certainly if you look at the great northern lords, Percy of Northumberland, Clifford of Cumberland, and Neville of Westmorland, all of them were staunchly Lancastrian. This page on the Battle of Wakefield may help a bit. Choess 18:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, allegiance changed amongst the northern nobility, aprticularly during Edward IV's two, reasonably stable, reigs. In particular, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, had a very strong Yorkist hold over the north (which he used when he took power as Richard III).

[edit] Symbols

Although the struggles are, of course, called the Wars of the Roses is it not true that those symbols were retrospectively given to each side much later. That in fact the participants would not have said they were fighting in the wars of the roses? From memory, Edward IV's symbol was a "sun in splendour" (see the British Columbia arms for a demi-sun in splendour), Richard III's symbol was a white boar and neither did the Lancastrians use a red rose. I don't recollect what it was at the moment though. Avalon 14:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the Lancastrians used a greyhound. IP Address 15:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

And while the white rose was a York badge, it was little used in relation to the war. More common were other Yorkist symbols, such as the "sun in splendor".  — AnnaKucsma   (Talk to me!) 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't back this with evidence right now, but I'm fairly sure that it was Henry Tudor who introduced the red rose to the Lancastrians, near the end of the war. If someone with more knowledge could look into when and where the red rose came from, it might alleviate some confusion about whether the roses were of significence at the time, or just to later historians.

[edit] Quote

While I think the quote is definitely apropos, it's very placement bothers me a bit. I feel it gives the article a "term paper" edge as opposed to an actual encyclopedia article. Anyone else agree? If not, I'll desist. --Cyrenaic

I fully agree. And I seem to remember one of the ten million wikiguidelines explicitly says articles better not begin with quotes. Don't quite remember where I read it. But I completely agree anyway. Piet 12:57, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I like the quote, i think its a good introduction, but will bow to popular opinion and happily remove it, (as I put it there!) if your feverently against it, after all it's a team effort!:Dom

Nothing wrong with the quote, but I don't think an encyclopedia article should start like that. It should start for example like "The Wars of the Roses (1455–1485) is the name generally given to the intermittent civil war fought over the throne of England between adherents of the House of Lancaster and the House of York." It just seems more encyclopedic, and all other articles do it like that. There's a guideline here although it doesn't say anything about quotes. I think the quote should go into one of the subsections. And btw, please sign your comments :-) Piet 20:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

HO KAY, then we're in agreement, we should move the quote rather than just remove it, but until we can figure out a good place for it are we ok with keeping it where it is?, after all it seems a little pointless to put it somewhere by itself: Dom

Maybe we can put it at the start of "The initial phase 1455–60", it would not be so intrusive. BTW is this from the Shakespeare play? It may be obvious but he is not mentioned anywhere. We could also make a short section "Notes" or "Trivia" or something with plays / novels / movies etc. based on or referring to the Wars of the Roses, and then put the quote there. Btw. you can sign comments by adding ~~~~ after your comment. Piet 07:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you're not logged in. Creating an account is easy and increases your privacy, and makes it easier for us to follow the dicussion. But you're free to edit without creating an account. Piet 07:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the quote to a stub section towards the bottom, currently called "In fiction" for lack of a better idea. (Tsk tsk, all that talk and no one did it before me?) Melchoir 14:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ahhhh sod it, maybe we should get rid of the thing all together, after all the 'in fiction' section would be a couple of shakespeare plays anyway, we should just try and stick to the facts: Dom 31 may 2006

[edit] Wrong war

Is anyone with me that we should stop putting references to The Civil war or war of the three kingdoms in this article as this happened 200 years or so after the events described in this article:Dom


I think it's okay, at least until some place is made for discussing wars generally and their similarities and connections. There is some concern about wars that last thirty years, just the orbital period of Saturn. The War of the Roses lasted that long, and was followed (just about one Neptunian orbit later) by a Thirty Years War in Europe which is said to be "a period of vague religious wars." Then another Neptunian orbit later, approximately, the period from 1776 to 1812 was the war of Independence by the United States against Britain. And finally, still another Neptunian period after that, the First and Second World Wars lasted from 1912 to 1945 -- one long period of war. Of course Neptune might have nothing to do with it but Britain uses that old Roman god as its Lord of the Sea, and would rather keep wars under Saturn under its control. And so forth. -- SyntheticET

[edit] See also: Percy-Neville feud

The presence of a one-line "See also" section just means that this article is missing information. From Percy-Neville feud:

  • The Percy-Neville feud was a series of skirmishes, raids and vandalism between two prominent northern families and their followers that helped provoke the Wars of the Roses.

Sounds like material for a Background section to me. Melchoir 16:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relevance??

really not quite sure why this is in the introduction "the later Tudor and Stuart eras, Richmondshire was a centre for such Recusants as George Calvert and Cambridgeshire a centre for such Puritans as Oliver Cromwell. It should be noted that these remnant Plantagenet factions were disabused of their independent positions in post-Henrician times, as monarchs continually played them off against each other",

I know its in brackets and its really interesting but my journalistic sense is tingalling, is this really relevant and it does clutter the intro up a bit... would anyone discuss dom 11:21 6 June 2006

I think the material can stay, but as you point out, it's not so good in the intro. One problem with the current article is that (apart from the intro) it doesn't offer much analysis of context; the body is only a chronological narrative, albeit a well-written one. At the least there should be a section on Background and a section on Consequences; perhaps the material in question could go into the latter? Melchoir 16:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I agree completly, i really think this article could do with a section detailing the aftermath of the war, and its effects on medieval life, England and europe, as well as a way drawing some conclusions dom 15:30 7 june 2006


[edit] In Fiction

I think we should add Stevenson's "Black Arrow" to the booklist cause its mainly based on this war.


Also, the first series of Black Adder involved Richard III and Henry Tudor. I think it would fit. 68.234.12.90 08:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I think at least The Black Arrow: A Tale of the Two Roses is sufficiently notable to warrant a mention, considering that if you ask people "Name a book about the Wars of the Roses" they'll usually respond "The Black Arrow". Even though it is fiction, it is pretty much the novel on the subject. However, I'm against having a separate "In fiction" section, because from what I've seen that will just attract Simpsons episodes and mecha anime. Shinobu (talk) 16:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

So made a few changes, everyone will probably freak out about them, but who knows, feel free to add some knowledge or put them back, you know whatever.....dom 20:50 2 october 2006

[edit] Who was on which side?

It might be bleedin' obvious to history buffs, but to me it isn't. 80N 13:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

funny you might ask that, it's actually a remarkably difficult question to answer as people and regions swapped sides constantly- whilst it's quite easy to see what side the royal families were on (Henry IV being a lancastrian) it's quite messy when you come down to looking at certain nobles and retainers, so I quess the answer is it isn't bleedin obvious and you certainly couldn't divide up the country into Yorkists here and Lancastians Here.

[edit] Battle of Bosworth

Surely Bosworth was a Tudor victory, not a Lancastrian one. Tudor could not be said to have been a legitimate leader of the Lancastrians. He had no claim (other than the successful use of force) to the throne. Avalon 23:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

He had a claim which descended through his mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort, from the Dukes of Somerset and ultimately from John of Gaunt, through Gaunt's marriage to Catherine Roelt. This was stretching matters a bit thin; but the casualties on the Lancastrian side, in particular the death of every holder of the title "Duke of Somerset", left Henry almost the only surviving descendent of John of Gaunt. Even so, it is possible that Henry Tudor might have dwindled into history as a mere pretender had not Richard III turned against the magnates who had earlier helped Edward IV gain and keep the throne (Buckingham, Hastings etc) Even allowing for later propaganda, I don't think it can be denied that Richard largely brought about his own downfall. I'll try and work this into the article. HLGallon 23:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
There were numerous surviving fully legitimate descendants of John of Gaunt, they were just mostly in the Iberian peninsula. The King of Portugal would have been the rightful Lancastrian heir, I believe. There were also a ton of Beaufort descendants - Henry Tudor just happened to be the seniormost one, genealogically. At any rate, Henry was clearly seen as the Lancastrian pretender. Obviously he had no reasonable genealogical claim. But that didn't stop Richard de la Pole from becoming the Yorkist claimant later on - while several of his older brothers were still alive, in a much more blatantly dubious claim. Simnel and Warbeck were also Yorkist pretenders, even though neither was actually related to the Yorks at all (presumably - I know there's people who've made cases the Warbeck was related in some way, although I think that's mostly crack-pottery). john k 18:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for that correction. Henry's right to the Kingdom derived from a mixture of bloodline, albeit watered down to homeopathic levels; conquest on the battlefield; and acclaim by Parliament. I doubt incidentally whether there were "a ton" of Beaufort descendents; many of them met a sticky end in 1464 and 1471. (Interestingly, Joan Beaufort, daughter of John D. of Somerset and great-aunt to Henry Tudor, married James I of Scotland. Had Henry Tudor died without issue, the Lancastrian claim to the throne could theoretically have reverted to James III of Scotland, since an elder Beaufort branch was under attainder.) HLGallon 22:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

There were not many living Beauforts, but there were a bunch of descendants. Next after Henry and his mother were the children of the late 2nd Duke of Buckingham, whose mother was the eldest daughter of Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset. Then came the various descendants of Edmund Beaufort's other daughters, who were fairly numerous. Then comes the Scottish connection, with descendants of the marriages of Joan Beaufort, sister of John and Edmund Beaufort, Dukes of Somerset, to James I of Scotland and to Sir James Stewart. Then the descendants of Margaret Beaufort, sister of said Queen Joan of Scotland, who married Thomas Courtenay, 5th Earl of Devon. Finally, the descendants of John of Gaunt and Catherine Swynford's only daughter, Joan, who married first Robert Ferrers, and later Ralph Nevill, 1st Earl of Westmorland. Among descendants of the latter were, er, Richard III, Queen Anne, Richard III's sisters, Edward IV's daughters, Warwick and Margaret of Clarence. So, pretty much everybody with any claim on the throne was a descendant of John of Gaunt. john k 14:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

Hey, could everybody stop dumping information into the introduction it's startoing to look awfully cluttered... it's a broad article and theres plenty of room to embelish things or add historical details... after all the introduction should just introduce the article and get people yo read the rest of it... cheers Dom 12:52, 2 January 2006 (GMT)

"most of the participants wore badges associated with their immediate want of having sex with the women in the towns so they fucked and they fucked till they fucked themselfs out feudal lords or protectors" I guess there is something wrong with this, right? Sorry I didn't fix it, I'm in a hurry —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.158.110.53 (talk) 10:59, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section for Edward IV

I've split off a section for Edward IV, as it seemed appropriate he should have a section to himself, like the other kings mentioned. Moonraker12 12:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Messed up chronology

In addition, he suffered from episodes of mental illness that he may have inherited from his grandfather Charles VI of France. By the 1450s, many considered Henry incapable of carrying out the duties and responsibilities of a king.

Reading this, the reader is led to believe that he's already suffering from the mental illness episodes during the next paragraph, while actually his first episode occurs later, when his first episode is discussed. I think it would be better to move this part and integrate it with the part that discusses his first episode, in such a way that the chronology is correct and no false impressions are given. Shinobu (talk) 14:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Can someone please start adding references? --Briaboru (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

As if to prove the point, it is now the one year anniversary since the "citations needed" banner was put up. Just when I needed sources the most, too. Crazy coyote (talk) 02:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)