Talk:Warren Kinsella/Archive2

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

I knew you could play nice!

Thanks, all! - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that. I sourced a link within Wiki, and he has now nominated it for speedy deletion. Pete Peters 16:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Ugh... - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the album and the band do meet deletion guidelines. They have no record deal (they self-publish on eight-tracks). They have no major gigs. The one singer is notable, but, as the listing on the band admitys, for things other than music. I'm no expert on Canadian punk rock. If people feel otherwise, that they are somehow, in any way, important, let them say so.Arthur Ellis 16:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:AFD for non-obvious deletions, please. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. I wasn't trying sleight of hand. I live in Canada, I don't feel too isolated from popular culture, and I never heard of this band or anyone in it. But I also don't have an eight-track player anymore :)Arthur Ellis 16:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have never had to do so much handholding with several users over such a prolonged period of time..... - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


The eight-track reference was to the fact that the Evaporators self-publish on 8-track tape. From my point of view, I'm preventing this from being a vanity listing, which it has been through most of its history. That link seemed, in my mind, to bring me to another vanit listing by the same group of Canadian punk rockers (!?!). I want to see them either brought up to snuff as relevant entries or mucked out. I'm sorry I lost my cool over this. It has eaten up a lot of my time.Arthur Ellis 16:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Xinit, a member of Wikipedia's punk rock project says Evaporators are an important band. I defer to his expertise and apologise for taking up people's time with this. At first glance, the band and their album seemed rather ridiculous, but I got off the punk rock bus back in about 1980.Arthur Ellis

As a Vancouverite, let me tell you they are popular. Everyone here knows them. They have been released on Alternative Tentacles, the label owned by former Dead Kennedy Jello Biafra. It is not just Nardwuar who is famous, the band is an indie-rock supergroup. John Collins from the New Pornograpers and David Carswell from The Smugglers are in it as well.[1] Geedubber 16:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
I learned something today. Maybe I should buy one of their albums. ::Is Barney Rubble is My Double out as a single:)?Arthur Ellis 16:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture

I think the picture on this entry is rather ludicrous. What do other people think? Should we look for a better picture? My problem with it is that it would (sort of) fit if the entry was just about punk rock, but when it deals with books, politics, lawsuits, a federal inquiry, etc., it makes him look rather silly.Arthur Ellis 16:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I rather like the picture on the Writers Union page (linked from "best selling author") as it is a full-face shot and there is already a punk reference (the Hot Nasties poster). The Writers Union picture may be a little old, though, so maybe someone can suggest something more up-to-date.Arthur Ellis 18:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

This entry

Hopefully, now that the entry is sourced, re-worked, etc. it can stay as it is for a while (maybe with a new picture if there is consensus) and we can devote our considerable energies to improving other Wikipedia entries. Arthur Ellis 16:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

This is BS, it's bad enough that you have had to make the whole WK entry look like WK is a bad guy. Your next thing you want to do is eliminate his picture. This guy has writern a national bestseller. He has become an authority on far right activities. But all you get is your silly reference to the Gomery inquiry and legal his actions against Mark Bourrie (MB). You then attempt to minimize his famous newsnet stunt by suggesting someone else thought of the idea. Who cares if someone else thought of the idea, I don't read people trying to discredit politician for reading a speech that they did not write. Sheesh. Pete Peters 17:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Please restrain your personal attacks. Obviously, you have some POV issues about this person. In my view, the entry is well-sourced and is complete. I am not suggesting someone else thought of the idea of the Barney prank. I am simply stating a fact, which is backed up with a citation. I think the fact that he wrote Web of Hate makes it obvious he has some knowledge of the far-right, but the fact that his publisher had to fork out $40K to one of the people discussed in the book -- an issue you made a bunch of us hunt down and research, then dropped -- takes away some of that authority, in my opinion. I simply wanted a better picture, one that didn't make him look silly. I have never said there should not be a picture of him.Arthur Ellis 18:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

SighPete Peters 19:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Gomery Inquiry

Kinsella's work as a political aide figured in a 2004 Canadian sponsorship scandal. In 1995, while working for David Dingwall, then Minister of Public Works, Kinsella wrote a memo to deputy minister Ran Quail recommending that the department place Charles Guité in charge of reviewing federal advertising policy.[2].

In 2006, Guité was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 42 months in prison for misdirecting funds intended for government advertising or sponsorship in Quebec, offences that occurred after Kinsella left government. In his report on the scandal, Justice John Gomery noted that the memo was "a highly inappropriate attempt by political staff to interfere in the internal administration" of the department.[3] Kinsella was a witness at the Gomery CommissionSchedule of Witnesses. and frequently mocked Judge Gomery on his web site.

Okay the more you dig into this the more you realize that this section has to go. This is what happen, Warren Kinsella wrote a memo to Ran Quail suggesting he should hire Guite. However Ran Quail dismissed the memo as a "mistake by an inexperienced staffer."[4]
  • Warren Writes a memo to Ran Quail
  • Ran Quail Dismisses the Memo as a rookie mistake
That is all. To put that in on top of what has already been written would be rather cumbersome, and too much of this entry would be spent on the Gomery commission. I am leaving it here in the discussion page if someone really wants to read it. Another thing, this article could make someone believe that Kinsella had some involvement in the sponsership scandal.Pete Peters 22:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but everything Kinsella suggested in the memo basically happened two years later.... Geedubber 22:28, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

After reading the deleted section and this talk section, I personally am of the opinion that the deleted section could (if not should) be restored with one additional sentence starting, perhaps, with "However, ..." RadioKirk (u|t|c) 22:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

My objection is the attempt to link Kinsella to Guite. He left the department years before the Ad department was created. Years before the Adscam ocurred, and this memo which was never used to convict someone, is placed front and center of the whole entry. He testified at the inquiry for less than 2 hours, which by inquiry standards is a very very short time.
  • Mentioning that Kinsella wrote a memo suggesting to hire a bureaucrat into a job.
  • Then years after Kinsella left the post The sponsership program is created
And viola, let's use Wikipedia to include Kinsella in the whole sponsership mess. Gedduber, if you want to write your own version than go ahead. Be sure to include WK critical evaluations of the whole sponsership inquiry. I just can't execpt how it is written now, there is bias in the article that is clearly one sided.Pete Peters 23:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I reworked it. Most of the text is reworked straight from the Gomery Report. I took out everything about Guite being sentence and focused it solely on Kinsella's role. I would like to add when Kinsella left government, but am unsure of the year. Geedubber 00:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Guite's subsequent career and charges are important, as it shows Kinsella's judgment. As well, there seems to be an attempt to soft-sopa what Gmery said about kinsella.Arthur Ellis 00:42, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Inserting Guite's biography into this article is only ment to discredit Kinsella, just like requesting Ripple Rock album be deleted from Wikipedia. Geddubber's post is the middle ground, leave it at that. Pete Peters 00:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Pete Peters edits, July 4

I have reverted the large number of vanity edits done this afternoon. Almost all of them have been reverted and rejected by other editors in the past. For instance, there's no need to talk about Kinsella's interviews for his punk book. The book is listed. The Gomery edits are a grotesque distortion of what Gomery had to say about Kinsella's role, as anyon who actually clicks the citation and reads the report (especially p. 26) can see.. The line about kinsella's father being "renowned" is POV. The Kinsella quotes about bloggers is rather irrelevant.

The consensus that was developed here Saturday and Sunday has been seriously undermined by Pete Peters, who waited until the consensus edits were essentially finished to go at this artice again. I sincerely hope the next administrator that happens by will read Pete Peters edit history. Pete Peter's first post was to falsely accuse me of being a sock puppet, as two check requests this week have shown. He has focussed on this article to make it, essentially, a vanity listing for Kinsella. I ask the next administrator who looks at this to do two things: (1) Google "Warren Kinsella" to get a handle on who this guy is, his impact on the Canadian blogosphere, and his place in the lead-up to the Sponsorship Scandal, which forced the federal Liberal Party of Canada out of power; and (2) Take a good, hard, NPOV look at Pete Peters edit history, in chronological order: the accusations, the posts he put on my user and talk page, the harrassment, the stalking. Until then, this entry is protected, much to the amusement of Canadians who are aware of Warren Kinsella. Arthur Ellis 01:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I don't approve of the Gomery Inquiry, I compromised with Geedubber. In matter of fact, the final product was more of a work by Geedubber. I thought it was a consensus built version. In my opinion, your consensus version included verbally abusing editors. Let's look at your conversation with Geedubber which doesn't sound consensus forged.
You have done something very dishonest. Kinsella is often credited for the Barney stunt. Wikipedia can set the record straight. You know very well the Paul Wells column is reprinted verbatim. As I said, you should be ashamed for putting deliberately misleading information into the entry and taking out something that can set the record straight. Arthur Ellis 00:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Nor does your conversation with HistoryBA sound consesus forged.
Maybe "brick" would be more accurate. Now please go away.Arthur Ellis 02:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
What you wrote on Geedubber's talk page took the cake.
You acted very dishonestly and maliciously by taking out well-sourced material (paul Wells, National Post) in the Kinsella article. You should be ashamed.Arthur Ellis 00:09, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Please don't refer it to consensus forged when it was anything but. I thought Geedubber and I did a good consensus job. Pete Peters 01:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The stuff above was taken out of context from my discussion page. Anyone interested in seeing what it's about should go there. As for saying Geedubber acted dishonestly, I stand by that. To make this article more flattering to Kinsella, he took out a reference that was solid (and that is in the locked version), and mocked me because if I reverted it, I would violate the 3RR. That's hardly fair play. And, again, the version that was done by the consensus worked out on this page two days ago (when Pete Peters had flounced and a vandalising IP showed up), and over the past couple of years by editors (especially on Gomery and the blogging issue) have been completely disregarded by these two editors, who used an evening of a national holiday to re-work the entry. I know it will be a lot of work to go through this discussion page, the Pete Peters edit history, the citations and to Google Kinsella to familiarise, but that's what this article needs. Arthur Ellis 02:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

ugh. I warned you about the 3rr so you wouldn't get banned, and so you could contribute to the article in other sections. The Sophie Galarneau part got in cause HistoryBA verified it, and RyanFantastic cited it correctly. kinsellasux is not a citable website. I did not act dishonestly. With my edits today, I was trying to please both you and PP, but i guess that is not possible. Infact in my edit summary I asked for comments from all editors. Using a "national holiday to re-work the entry"? I am not a evil-genius. it was my birthday too, is that not allowed either? Everything I added was cited and notable. I focused on Kinsella role in the Gomery affair, cause it is his page not Guite's. The personal section is a tad vanity, but everything else is notable and article worthy Geedubber 05:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

This ends, now

For multiple and continuous violations of Wikipedia:Blocking policy#When blocks may be used Item numbers 2 ("Excessive reverts"), 6 ("Disruption") and 10 ("Users who exhaust the community's patience"), Arthur Ellis and Pete Peters are advised to either figure out how to work together, decide to work elsewhere (as in, not on Warren Kinsella) or face preventative, extended blocks from editing any article. This stops, now. If either of you has an issue with this, please take it to the ArbCom with my relief blessing. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 02:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


Will doArthur Ellis 03:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


Arthur Ellis

Two check user requests, both made by Kinsella apologist Pete Peters, who registered last week and immediately began refashioning this page to suit Kinsella's ego, have shown Arthur Ellis is not Ceraurus and/or Mark Bourrie. Plastering Bourrie's name all over Wikipedia with insults and accusations may not be the smartest thing to do, especially now that he's suing Kinsella, and Kinsella has linked to this page on his poison pen blog.209.217.93.40 11:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The checkuser was inconclusive. It is still unclear whether Arthur Ellis is or isn't a sockpuppet of Ceraurus. Oh, and please read Wikipedia:No legal threats Geedubber 16:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

"Inconclusive" means, effectively, that you and Pete Peters have jack squat. I don't see a legal threat here, just a reminder that someone who is not on Wikipedia is having his name spread all over it by Pete Peters and you and may not particularly like it.

Who are you, IP? Please identify yourself - this is ridiculous. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


PAPus...PAPus... I vant to see your PAPuzzz.... Crzrussian really does fit. Arthur Ellis 22:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


I think Pete Peters is really Kinsella doing an excellent job of playing dumb. Look at the Wikipedia entry for Pete Peters and see it's for some white supremacist. Pete Peters and Geedubber know a lot about the Canadian Federal government, including a remarkable amount of stuff about the advertising contracting system (see article history). There's a lot of "golly, Gomer, I don't know nuthin' about no War-reen Kinsella, I'm just a pubic spirited citizen editing Wikipedia for the benefit of us all, but, oh, my, the federal advertising procurement system introduced by the Treasury Board in 1997 bears a striking resemblance to the one suggested by Mr. Kinsella in the fabled Q memo of 1995. How about that, eh, fellas? Now let's take out the Gomery stuff. And put in he's a punk rock ge-ni-us." Do you think we're all stupid, Warren? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.78.64.58 (talk • contribs)

And who are you, IP address user?? One more inflammatory comment, and I will block you! - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Arthur Ellis cited the Gomery pdf (I never would have found the chapter on my own) and I searched the document for Kinsella's name. The Gomery report is very clearly written and easy to understand. I would like to point out that I added the Gomery section back in, and expanded what Kinsella's role was. If anything my edits paint a worse picture of Kinsella. I even included a new quote which makes him sound incompetent. Geedubber 21:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thwere's no tildes key on this public computer in a part of the world where computer keys are in French. You can get it in the discussion history. Sorry if you find facts inflamatory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.78.64.58 (talk • contribs)

You're 142.78.64.58 (talk · contribs). What I am asking is, whose sock are you in this debate, or who are you in real life? - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not anyone in this debate. I followed the link to here from www.warrenkinsella.com/musings.htm, looked the stuff over and saw how ludicrous it is. I take it you're not from Canada, are you? You really don't know how ludicrous Warren Kinsella is in Canada, do you? Do yourself a favor and go over to Kinsella's web site. Read the entire "latest musings" page. Get some archives from Google. Then come back to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.78.64.58 (talk • contribs)

Since you mentioned it, you can sign your comments with one of the buttons above the edit window, second from the right. I don't usually type the tildes. It's just easier. --JGGardiner 17:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for the tip. BTW, CRzrussian, here's a good place to start: it's a link to a letter to the editor from the head of the news department of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, skewering Kinsella for a smear of one of his National News reporters. Kinsella is a master of smear.

http://www.cbcwatch.ca/?q=node/view/1681

I bet "Kicking Ass in Canadian Politics" didn't sell well in the States, but Kinsella is an advocate of th3 Karl Rove/James Carville school of politics. He's pretty much been laughed off the political stage in Canada. --142.78.64.58 17:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm no fan of Kinsella myself. But we have to remember that WP is an encyclopedia and it isn't our place to comment on the subjects ourselves. --JGGardiner 18:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


It's important to be accurate and ensure the entries are true and not just PR for narcissists who would edit their own pages to make themselves look good.

.206.191.56.34 22:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. Although I think that in general not many people are actually so immodest and vain as to edit their own articles. --JGGardiner 22:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I buy the argument that Kinsella is.206.191.56.34 22:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Why no mention that Kinsella is a criminally insane narcissist?

This section heading was added by 209.217.96.169.

Probably because narcissist "POV" term. Do you have a source on the criminally insane part? --JGGardiner 17:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Proven as a complete phrase, "criminally insane narcissist"? or just as "criminal", "insane" and "narcissist"? or as "criminally insane" and "narcissist"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.217.123.54 (talk • contribs)

Well "criminally insane" could potentially be an objective fact (as a finding). Narcissist is really a characterization so that depends on how you intend to use it. You're probably going to want to familiarize yourself with WP policies. But we probably shouldn't waste any more space on general topics on the article talk page. --JGGardiner 17:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


But is it art?

Everyone should hear "Barney Rubble is My Double" at least once before they die: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mVV_M0NoC4

64.26.147.188 22:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm not a fan. I wonder if waving the doll was Kinsella's idea? --JGGardiner 05:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The Ripple Rock page credits the Hot Nasties.... so I am gussing he wrote this back in the day. When the page gets unprotected we might want to change "Recently, Kinsella wrote the song, Barney Rubble is My Double for The Evaporator's Ripple Rock album." to "Recently, Kinsella's song, Barney Rubble is My Double was performed by The Evaporator on their Ripple Rock album." Geedubber 09:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow, old poseurs never die... Surely these geezers don't take themselves seriously? The singer of "Barney Rubble is my Double", who has legally changed his name to Narduar the Human Serviette, is 39 and has a show on a college radio station. "Time to move out of the basement, son." "Um, time to let some real college students have that slot, Nard. I'm afraid we have to ask you to move on." 64.26.147.188

Must admit, though, it is catchy.209.217.93.12 15:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that after watching the clip, the lyrics are perhaps the best part of the performance. And since we did just hear the one line repeated, I googled them to see all of the poetry and the lyrics are available on the Shit From Hell website here.[5] That page seems to imply that it is an SFH song and not a Hot Nasties one I believe. And with Kinsella's writing and the doll waving I tend to believe the song is about Stockwell Day being a neanderthal. --JGGardiner 15:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I googled it and found two people credited with writing the song, Kinsella and another guy with a French name. Maybe the Canadian music copyright collective people have a record. Kinsella may own enough of the song that it can be used without payment by SFH. The Evaporators' old Wikipedia listing credits Hot Nasties (you'll have to dig back into the histories or unscramble the talk page). I played some more Evaporators stuff at the video site and found the band quite tight, while the lyrics were grim and not particularly creative and the singing to be the biggest weakness. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think 40-year-ol guys doing retro-punk is the next big thing in music. Been wrong before -- people got rich off the Bird Dance. 209.217.93.12 16:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the SFH site credit W. Kinsella and Pierre Schenk with writing the song. The Punk History Canada site says that Pierre Schenk was the lead guitar for the Hot Nasties. Sooo, i think it was a Hot Nasties song not a SFH song.... unless Schenk is in SFH too.... their website only provides the nicknames of the members so the year it was written is getting hard to verify. Geedubber 00:22, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that I've had enough of Barney Rubble for now. So unless somebody else wants to do the research, I would endorse Geedubbers idea. And I must say that I'm surprised that nobody has added the song to the trivia section Barney Rubble article. I won't because I wouldn't want some child stumbling across Shit from Hell. Although I know that WP is not censored for minors. I also hate those trivia sections. --JGGardiner 17:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The song was written by Kinsella, it's confirmed in this March 2004 interview by James Sinclair of Hour.ca - http://www.hour.ca/music/music.aspx?iIDArticle=895 - I found a short clip on the net of Kinsella singing it: http://www.oracleofottawa.org/WK_BRSept30_05.rm --- Mai Lee ---

Disputed?

Things seem pretty jovial here now. And Mark Bourrie himself said that this article is improved. And since Geedubber mentioned getting back to real work on the article, do you think that we could unprotect the page? Are there still disputes that can't be resolved through dialogue? --JGGardiner 17:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Do others agree? If people post to say they agree, I'll unprotect - CrazyRougeian talk/email 17:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Uhh... one person with two puters pretending to have a two person conversation on the Talk Page. One of them on the Mark Bourrie Talk page claims to be Mark Bourrie himself. Errrrr, it still must be protected from random IP's. And probably reverted from any Arthur Ellis edit. Errrrrr. I will not touch the page, as long as he can agree to do same. Pete Peters 21:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
PP has a good idea. Instead of removing all protection, do it gradually like to semi-protect first then all the way. Geedubber 00:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
In the spirit of WP:AGF I am in favour of removing all protection. Perhaps we could archive this talk page in the near future as well, as it is gettiing rather long. -- Ryanfantastic 19:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the last version by Geedubber (July 4) is fine by me. The "renowned physician" bit seems POV (who is saying it? Wikipedia?). And I think Kinsella wrote "Barney Rubble is my Double" twenty years ago, not recently. I'd leave it alone if it was that version, with a date on BRIMD and the lame-o amateur mid-life punk music stuff at the bottom. Arthur Ellis 22:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the links Mai. I agree with Arthur's points. "Renowned" is probably POV. It could be justified although I don't think that the link really proves it. But I'm not familiar with NCEHR and the link doesn't explain what it is. So I would defer if someone has better info. I think it is also strange how the sections go from politics to punk music to Gomery. I agree with his suggestion to move it down. I actually just noticed that we no longer mention Shit from Hell. I'm on board with Geedubber's semi-protection idea if that works. I'm really just happy to see anything that gets things running again but I'd really hate to see more unreasonable conflict. But I would also like to get back to allowing IPs, like Mai, to contribute also. So hopefully we can fully unprotect relatively soon also if everyone can behave themselves. --JGGardiner 02:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
some editors said that SFH didn't meet WP:BAND and that the citations were "vanity sites". So I removed SFH in my last edit. I left the Hot Nasites in cause people in talk, i think it was you JGG, said they were notable. plus now that it's known the Evaporator's did a cover of one of their songs means that the punk section should definately be left in. I was also responsible for the change in order of the sections... I can't remember why I did it that way.... Is there a wiki style guide which could give us some direction here? Geedubber 03:07, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that as long as the information is not a vanity inclusion, it is up to our discretion. Kinsella's part in SFH most likely would not have warranted an article for Kinsella on it's own (according to my understanding of the group's importance to the music world) but once a subject is worthy of an article, all info in that article need not be as important as the subject is himself. So SFH is, in my opinion, as notable as his high school, his education, his early work experience, etc. All normal things that every article includes. And it's the kind of thing in other articles, like Stephen Harper's fondness for the Calgary Flames. The article is a gestalt entity where the details are individually insignificant but together make up the article for a notable individual. --JGGardiner 03:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Kinsella's Dad

Txs JGGardiner - Did you also know that Kinsella's father was indeed a well known physician. He received the Order of Canada for his work in Bioethics: http://www.gg.ca/honours/search-recherche/honours-desc.asp?lang=e&TypeID=orc&id=3372

The Order of Canada award states " A pioneer in medical bioethics, he was the driving force in developing a program, unique in its scope and intensity, for residency training in this vital field. As president of the National Council of Bioethics in Human Experimentation, he has led this organization in developing one of the most effective policies on ethical conduct in medical and scientific research in Canada. "

A nice tribute by Bioethics Canada is available in the Google cache: http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:GjLLzcXY_2kJ:www.bioethics.ca/AMemorialTributKinsella.doc+douglas+kinsella+order+of+canada&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=1 -Mai Lee

Thanks again Mai. Well that info is quite specific and actually makes the old entry look pretty understated although I'm not sure how everyone would like to see the particular sentence written in the article. But with the protection still on I guess we have some time to talk about it if anyone would like. --JGGardiner 02:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe do an entry on Kinsela's father then, since those were his accomplishments. I can imagine the dinner table conversations at the Dr. Kinsella household c. 1970, lots of chhat about the finer points of ethics, and little Warren absorbing them like a sponge.Arthur Ellis 10:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, after doing the morning dishes, I've had an utter and complete reversal of views. I had though Warren's father was just some old sawbones (everyone's doctor is "renowned" to his patients. That's the secret of medicine). The fact the guy was a serious scholar of ethics needs to be in there. In an article about the self-styled "Prince of Darkness" and the author of "Kicking Ass In Canadian Politics", the fact his father was an ethicist has all kinds of Freudian implications. Anyone know anything about his mom? He never mentions her. Maybe she was an ethicist, too. Arthur Ellis 13:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Dr. Kinsella deserves his own article. I think every person who's been honoured with the Order of Canada should. Hopefully somebody who knows more than I do would like to take up that task. Otherwise I guess I don't mind doing a little research. As for this article, I'm not sure what you want to include exactly but we can't point out a perceived irony. Original research (besides "POV" concerns). --JGGardiner 16:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

something like: "Warren Kinsella is the son of bioethicist Dr. XYZ Kinsella, who received an Order of Canada in recognition of his research."

Takes care of the POV and vague "renowned physician" part, because he seems to be recognized more for the bioethics stuff than for his practice of medicine. Arthur Ellis 16:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

From the randomhouse website "The 1990 Liberal leadership convention in Calgary was a chance for Dr. Kinsella to see his son in action (and serve as official physician to the Chrétien team)" Interesting tidbit. Inclusion? Geedubber 19:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe in his own entry. Really, family is worth only a line or two. Arthur Ellis 20:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Before it's unblocked

I think we have a consensus (at least among the non-IP posters:

  • Put the music at the end
  • Explain a bit about Dr. Kinsella (i.e. why he is renowned)
  • Leave the sections themselves pretty much as-is

I think we need to hear from Pete Peters and History BA on this before it's unblocked to registered posters. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to quickly open it to anonymous and IP posters. Arthur Ellis 17:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I would also

  • change writing section more into a list
  • move the weblog to personal
  • move media columnist for the National Post to career history
  • correct the barney rubble line
  • add the year he left government

Geedubber 18:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


All good suggestions.Arthur Ellis 18:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I hope that we can keep up all the cooperation when the article is unprotected. What about the picture? I don't think it is a very good one. But I seem to recall that there was a dispute about changing pictures in the past. --JGGardiner 18:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggested changing the picture to something less assisine and Pete Peters had, well, reservations, and thought I wanted to get rid of it altogether. I suggested the one on the Writers Union of Canada page which is a full-frame head shot.

I still have worries, since we haven't heard from Pete Peters and HistoryBA. This happened last time with Pete Peters. A consensus seemed to have formed, then he re-edited the page.20:29, Arthur Ellis 20:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)8 July 2006 (UTC)

How about this, keep it protected from anonymous IPs and new accounts, and Arthur and I do not contribute to the entry. We may vent our frustration on the discussion board. That seems like a decent plan. Consensus anyone? Pete Peters 20:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we work on the consensus that's been built here, fix the article and move on. Blocking IPs, at least for a week or two, is a good idea. If the article looks the way I think it will from the consensus of the last few days, I won't see any need to change it. I'm leery about promising not to touch it, as I've been burned before, and we don't know who is lurking in the bushes.Arthur Ellis 21:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I can not find a single reason to lift the ban. Your behaviour is still suspect. Anyone who looks at Arthur Ellis's history, will find that he is still trying to get any positive entry about Warren deleted. Even anonymous IPs that have posted on here have either said they are Mark Bourrie on another Talk page, or requested the deletion of "The New Pornographers", simply because there is a Wareen connection. Here is the agreement that I ask others to vote on, keep it protected from anonymous IPs and new accounts, and Arthur and I do not contribute to the entry. We may vent our frustration on the discussion board. Yes, are we all in agreement. Pete Peters 01:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your input. You can speak for yourself, but I am leery of letting you speak for me. I have already said that I agree with the consensus established in the last couple of days. I am not Mark Bourrie. I certainly have not said so on any talk page. I suggest you get over it, let us know if there's anything in the proposed edits you disagree with, and we'll get on with this. Don't come in here late in the game and go personal on us. Arthur Ellis 01:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

IP 64.26.147.188 who was placing nonsense on the the Check User page of Cereaus, also said he was Mark Bourrie on the Mark Bourrie Talk page. Ironically, the two recent anonymous IPs that have entered into this Talk Page, 64.26.147.188, 209.217.93.12 along with Arthur Ellis have all had their nonsense on that check user page reverted by admin. So for the record, I said, " anonymous IPs that have posted on here have either said they are Mark Bourrie...", apology accepted Arthur. Pete Peters 02:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, I am semi-protecting. Play ball! - CrazyRougeian talk/email 02:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Uhhh... No deal was made. Hmmm... Oh Well, and in Canada we say "Let's Play Ball" Pete Peters 02:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to incorporate that "Dingwall testifies that he does not remember the incident, but assumes that he must have instructed Mr. Kinsella to write the memo."(from gomery) and if we are going to include Guite being sentenced move it to the bottom of the paragraph for chronological reasons. and find a citation too Geedubber 04:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Game On

Now that's more like what we say in Canada. Not a bad start (unless I've missed something). Perhaps every article should take a few days off so that the editors can talk things out and come up with an action plan. Remember, disputes are allowed but they have to worked out in a civil manner (for example on talk pages). But I did want to ask if there is a source on Bourrie disclosing the details? Or is that the same disclosure that's already used as a source for the $1000? --JGGardiner 06:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Whoa there, Nelly!

Ok, guys, let's start this all over again. I thought we were making great progress when you both agreed to make all suggestions for the page here. Let's start this over again with a clean slate and put all issues we have with the page here and discuss it. It's more effective. Yanksox 15:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I want to have nothing to do with this article anymore. I first got annoyed with Arthur Ellis when he cried vandalism over an entry of mine. (Isn't odd that random IP's stationed in Ottawa also cry vandalism over something that is not?) The guy has his own POV, and is determined to establish it as the standard viewpoint. I don't think saying Warren Kinsella's father was a recipient of the Order of Canada merits a vandalism decree. Well, this is what is going to happen, anyone who puts in a passage that views warren in a positive light will be reverted by Arthur Ellis. Then he'll say it was consensus built. Also, notice on the Mark Bourrie entry how he edits out anything that looks poorly on Mark Bourrie. Isn't it odd? Pete Peters 15:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


I agree with the version by crzrussian, which refelcts the consensus -- and the work -- that we did over the last few days.Arthur Ellis 15:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

So as of right now, no one has any issues with the page that they wish to list here? If you do, I highly recommend listing it here right now. Yanksox 15:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, is it possible just to play nice again? I know you guys can, it's not that hard to not edit the page and just talk about it here. Yanksox 15:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes I have issue, Arthur Ellis should not be allowed to edit this entry. Last time the protection was lifted, Arthur never explain any of his edits on the discussion board. Instead he badgered editors for modifying his version. The CrzRussian edit, was an edit made during my edit. Our two edits collided. Pete Peters 15:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


---It is interesting that Arthur Ellis has begin posting entries on railroads only after my friend Sushi Boy posted this:

"For someone who keeps saying he's not "Mark Bourrie", Arthur Ellis sure knows a whole lot about his uncle and Bourrie Trivia. Never has anything to post in his area of expertise: Railroads. He's made so many posts on Bourrie, Pierre Bourque and Kinsella. Always, trying to delete pages connected to Kinsella. So many edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Arthur+Ellis That's all I have to say. --Sushi Boy--"

The entry is common knowledge, this person is trying to convince you that he's knowlegeable.

We think you are being duped, it would be best to retain the page protection. Anyway, it's a interesting to watch this flame-delete-revert war. as my friend said, so many edits. <-Casey Jones ->—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.131.114.43 (talk • contribs)

I think as of right now, both of you should refrain from editing the article. Also, Radio Kirk did not say that, he said this and this. We should try to reach an agreement on content and not other editors on this page. You both can list the issues you have with the current text here and other users can comment on it. Yanksox 15:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I said I would ban myself from this page, if he could do the same. Pete Peters 15:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to ban yourself from the page, I think you should restrict yourself from editing the page, as should Arthur Ellis, but I think you should stay active on the talk page. Yanksox 15:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay I agree, I hope the two of us can both agree. I may be wrong about the quote. Pete Peters 16:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad to see your willingness to do so, now I hope Arthur Ellis can drop in. Yanksox 16:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

We were doing so well at talking about it before. Disputes happen, we just have to be able to handle them appropriately. It would probably most helpful if somebody is reverting changes if they could do them line by line so, with explanations in the edit summary, so that we know what the problems are with each section. So, lets talk this through if we have to. What issues are the in dispute? --JGGardiner 16:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


If you think my expertise in ABS and CTC traffic control systems in railways is "common knowledge", you obviously haven't compared the edits in the article.

Just what exactly constitutes harassment on Wikipedia? And if I may be so bold, may I see the different sets of rules that govern different peoples' conduct? Arthur Ellis 17:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Since he asks the question, with all those edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Arthur+Ellis May I suggest that "Arthur Ellis" fits the harassment profile /kim c/

Small edits

I think everyone needs to commit themselves ASAP to small edits ONLY. In the last 24 hours Pete made a massive summary reversion ignoring interim progress, and Arthur restored it. Going forward let's all make only small changes. If a particular change is questionable, either slap {{fact}} on it, or talk about POV issues on talk page - and be specific. Let one of the non-warring parties change it if needs to be changed. I for one am watching what's going on here, every edit. - CrazyRougeian talk/email 16:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well this is what I have to say as my last hoorah.
  • Kinsella left 2 years before the sponsership scandal started. There is an obvious bias in the current version.
  • Kinsella's father recieved the order of Canada, I think some mention of that should be allowed.
  • requesting CSD for entries relating to Warren Kinsella must be stopped
  • The lawsuit against bloggers. Should not say that he "aroused controversy", he is after all the "Prince of Darkness." Too much time is spent on MArk Bourrie in the entry.
  • Saying that Kinsella did the Barney stunt based on the idea of somone else is like saying that G.W. Bush said the "Axis of Evil" because the speechwriter David Frum thought of it. Unneccesary detail. Too much detail.
  • Excluding the fact that he is a best selling author should stop Pete Peters 16:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
  • OK - does anyone have an objection to this - speak now pr forever hold your peace! - CrazyRougeian talk/email 16:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


I think "aroused controversy" is valid. See long discussion in the archive (among people who are no longer here). I think Guite stuff is important. The sponsorship system actually began while Kinsella was there. the kickback element supposedly came later. Gomery says Kinsella introduced Guite to Corriveau (both have been convicted in the sponsorship scandal). No reason why Kinsella's father's Order of Canada shouldn't be in, especially in regards to it being awarded for bioethics. Formerly, he was described as a "renowned physician" which is both vague and POV. Saying Kinsella did the Barney stunt on someone else's idea is important as Kinsella has taken full credit for it quite often. The difference between Kinsella and Bush is that Kinsella is a political "strategist" selling his services and taking credit for this stunt, while Bush is an elected official. (BTW, Frum did not coin Axis of Evil and was fired for taking credit for it). No reason at all not to include the fact that he's a best-selling authot (BTW, CRZ, a "best seller" in Canada is reaching the lofty sales plateau of 5000 sold). Arthur Ellis 17:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"best selling" and "aroused controversy" should both be removed. Putting an OC link after Dr. Kinsella's name is good enough, you don't have to spell it out. I was fine putting that Guite got convicted as long as it was at the end of the paragraph and cited. I would like to add that Dingwall testified that he ordered Kinsella to write the memo. Geedubber 17:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I see Kinsella (Pete Peters) says on his blog that I "smeared his mother" here. [6] Actually, all I did was ask if she was an ethicist, too. This is the kind of guy we're dealing with. Here's what I posted:

Actually, after doing the morning dishes, I've had an utter and complete reversal of views. I had though Warren's father was just some old sawbones (everyone's doctor is "renowned" to his patients. That's the secret of medicine). The fact the guy was a serious scholar of ethics needs to be in there. In an article about the self-styled "Prince of Darkness" and the author of "Kicking Ass In Canadian Politics", the fact his father was an ethicist has all kinds of Freudian implications. Anyone know anything about his mom? He never mentions her. Maybe she was an ethicist, too. Arthur Ellis 13:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

As for Jan Wong, she may have suggested, very vaguely, as a hint, that Kinsella may have used public knowledge of his son's near-drowning (the kid was left unattended for a moment at a cottage) to try to sell books. Not that the kid was trying to sell books, or that the kid was a sleaze.

Arthur Ellis 17:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

yes, technically you were insulting him when you asked that, but personal attacks beget more personal attacks so I suggest that you take the highroad and stop dissing him all. plus saying stuff like "This is the kind of guy we're dealing with." makes you sound extremely biased and won't make other editors respect your edits. Geedubber 17:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I was insulting him. Maybe his mother did something special. Rather sexist that no one even tries to find out. Or did Kinsella spring forth, fully formed, from the brow of Dr. Zeus? As well, he says on the same blog page that, yesterday, someone sent him a link to this page. Scroll down and you'll see that he, in fact, linked to this page several days ago. Maybe one of our problems is that this guy has, um, issues with the truth. Arthur Ellis 17:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I agree with Geedubber's suggestions, though I have no trouble with "best selling" staying in. I see C.M. is already in the entry, but not everyone would know what it means at first sight.Arthur Ellis 17:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

the edit JGG made seemed to take care of stuff. The way he worded the controversy line is fine. Geedubber 18:04, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Piss off buddy, I am not Warren Kinsella. A clear difference is, he can articulate his writing into a very eloquent way. I can not. You better stop with that silly allegation. Pete Peters 17:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

He denies the allegation and denounces the allegator. Arthur Ellis 17:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC) Arthur Ellis 18:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


JGG's edits are fine. people can find the OC through the link. They can decide for themselves by reading the blogging section whether there was a controversy, or how much of one there was.Arthur Ellis 18:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Ok, let's all calm down and relax here. There is absolutely no need to get hasty around here. Let's relax and keep trying to find some middle ground. Yanksox 18:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Today's Bizarro Question

Is KInsella related to W.P. Kinsella, the writer?Arthur Ellis 23:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

from the now infamous Jan Wong article, "Ask if he's even related to W.P., this Kinsella nearly chokes on his Diet Coke. "Not a [f-word deleted] chance," he says. "He's this Reform Party reptile." Geedubber 23:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hot Nasties

Now that Warren Kinsella is blocked anmd Arthur Ellis can't change it, he attacks the Hot Nasties section that I created (and I have NO LINK to Warren Kinsella but I sure know punk rock a lot more than Mr Ellis/Bourrie). He nominated the Hot Nasties article for deletion. That's ridiculous. How many punk rock bands in the World featured a future strategist for the prime minister of a country? Not that many, and that is one of the many reasons the Hot Nasties SHOULD be there, along with their influential "Invasion of the Tribbles" record. Stop the Madness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.160.237 (talk • contribs)

"Influential?". Says it all. Lots of people who grew up to be politicans and political aides were in high school bands. Should Wikipedia have an entry for each one?Arthur Ellis 13:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:BAND Geedubber 13:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, influential. This was NOT a high school band but a band made of high school and University guys. They didn't played in high school, they made a lot of punk rock shows. In fact, the Hot Nasties were the most influential band of the Calgary punk rock scene. But since the Warren Kinsella Entry is now blocked because of repeated attacks by Arthur Ellis/Mark Bourrie, Mr Ellis/Bourrie now tries to have the Hot Nasties and Invasion of the Tribbles pages deleted. Pathetic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.237.53.91 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


Let's see if they make the cut. It's not up to me. I only get one vote. It's up to the Wikipedia community. I think they're vanity listings but if they're deemed up to Wikipedia standards of notability and writing, fine. If not, they shouldn't have been created in the first place. I haven't done anything underhanded, and I have not been the one to drag personalities into it. I've left that for crzrussian and our anonymous poster (above).Arthur Ellis 17:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not the Hot Nasties article. Deal with those problems there. Don't attack each other and follow each other all over the encyclopedia. Stick to the content. There are enough problems keeping that in line. THIS SECTION IS CLOSED --JGGardiner 00:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)