Talk:Warren Jeffs/Archive 1
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Just a thought
First thing that came into my head when I heard about this guy: Waco Siege and John Titor. I think that says more about me than anything though... Cryomaniac 20:33, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Warren Jeffs is a wonderful man, I hope they don't catch him soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.40.116.153 (talk • contribs)
Why do you say Warren Jeffs is a "wonderful man?" If he had nothing to hide, why was he on the run for so long? As a 'righteous prophet,' I would assume he would have stood up for his beliefs long ago. -Northridge 16:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Nice thought, Northridge. But it's a fallacy. Then again, people who use that language usually realize this. So, are you honestly saying that if a person "has nothing to hide" they should come forward and make their case, regardless of whether the courts see it their way or not? Do you obey *every* law - even those you don't believe are fair and just? Should a Christian living in Maoist China have come forward and stood up for their beliefs? Would not doing so, have made their beliefs any less valid? Polyblogger 14:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- You made a valid argument. In many cases, my reasoning can be taken as a fallacy. But despite what you might think, I don't believe the US is comparable to Maoist China. There isn't really any Christian persecution in the US (though some people think otherwise); the death penalty is restricted to capital cases (and I think in China, the death penalty applies to a broader range of offenses); and the US justice system utilizes bail (I wouldn't know if bail is used in China). I don't think Mr. Jeffs was short of funds; he might/could have been eligible for bail if he passed the prerequisite requirements. With regards to Mr. Jeffs' sting in hiding, of course it isn't definite proof of guilt, but it's a damn strong indicator, and Mr. Jeffs' publicity in the Top 10 Most Wanted roster does color a person's perspective. Yes, I know the US justice system isn't perfect; the fact that innocent people have/continue to go to prison is enough to give pause. It would be wonderful if God was on earth to succintly tell us who the bad guys are and mete out the appropriate punishments. But it isn't such a perfect world. I'm sorry if this answer seems excessive and incoherent, but the reasoning behing your question seemed vague, Polyblogger. Are you coming from a 'Christian' viewpoint? Are you skeptical of the US justice system? Or are you just taking offense at my 'fallacy?' -Northridge06:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Photos
Is it really necessary to have three almost identical passport-style photos? Camillus (talk) 23:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's a bad idea, because he looks so different from one photograph to the next, and it might help someone recognize him. That's just my take... Mikesherk 03:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I thank you all for talking about me and for recognising my power. God bless you. Warren.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.215.184 (talk • contribs)
- Hi, Warren and welcome to Wikipedia. One question: If you're so "powerful", how did you end up getting caught? Hmmm....--Folksong 09:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
FYI, people in FLDS are forbidden to use the internet. So, obviously, that isn't Warren.161.11.121.122 23:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Last seen in public in 2004?
So Jeffs was last seen in public in 2004, but he was out on January 1, 2005 in Texas? Is this conflicting, or is the 2005 appearance not "public"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManiacalMonkey (talk • contribs)
grammar tip: the possessive
If a word ends in an "s", and you want to make it possessive, you add an apostrophe "s".
For example, "the boss's car"
It is only when the word is plural that you merely add the apostrophe:
For example, "the bosses' car"
Sooooo....
since the name Jeffs is a singular noun, It would be "Jeffs's wives", not "Jeffs' wives"
"Jeffs's wives" looks cumbersome, but what can you do...
- Not neccessarily - Chicago, APA and AP allow for you to just use the apostrophe as a possessive. For example "Warren Jeffs' car" or Chris' is acceptable, and in fact, in most western US universities is the norm. As a writer, I never use the possessive "double s" due to my training as a journalist. -Visorstuff 15:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
ok, thanks! -johno95 17:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I was always taught that 1) monosyllabic words ending in "s" always formed the possessive by adding "'s"; 2) polysyllabic words ending in "s" always used just "'"; and 3) the possessive of disyllabic words ending in "s" was discretionary, i.e., either "'s" or just "'". Thus, "Charles's car", "Jesus's or Jesus' disciples", and "Socrates' cup of hemlock". "Chris' car" sounds weird to me. I suspect that "Warren Jeffs' car" sounds better only because the ear confuses it with "Warren Jeff's [sic] car".
Capture date
This article says he was captured on the 28th but the FBI Most Wanted List page says the 29th. Which one is it? --Kevin W. 20:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- If the FBI say the 29th, it was the 29th. dposse 23:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- I meant the MWL page here on the wiki. --Kevin W. 00:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe the confusion came from the time difference. He was arrested at about 9PM local time, which is about midnight on the east coast(where the FBI's headquarters are). So it'e either the 28th or 29th depending on the timezone. TJ Spyke 23:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Under August 2006 Arrest, it says they had more $600,000. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060830/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_arrested says "$54,000 in cash and $10,000 in gift cards". Where's the source for the $600K?
Photo Change
Unless anyone objects, I'm going to eliminate the current opening photo and replace it with his recent booking photo. Aside from being more up-to-date, the current photo is grainy and of a poor resolution (I'm not citing any fault on the part of whoever uploaded it; the photo itself, which was used by the FBI, was of a low res to begin with). All in all, it looks much more professional.209.169.114.213 05:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Religious Freedom
Where's the religious freedom aspect in all of this? Aren't religious practitioners often allowed to break civil law in the practice of their faith? Smoking marijuana, slaughtering animals, and so on? I'm not saying Warren Jeffs is right or wrong in his beliefs, but that - in America - one would think he'd be allowed to practice as he chooses. Are polygamy and marrying "under age" girls somehow exempt from this, when other violations of law are not? And are these girls under age in the states in question, or at the Federal level? In many states, 16 is the age of consent. Someone please explain why the FBI felt the need to add this guy to their most wanted list, for these seemingly minor crimes. Minor in terms of possibly falling under religious freedom precedent, as well as, relative to the crimes of others on the most wanted list. Is there more going on here than meets the eye? Not looking to make a point so much as asking for some enlightenment. From anyone but Northridge, that is. ;) Polyblogger 14:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Polygamy isn't the issue. If it were, there would have already been a raid on the 8,000 practicing polygamists at the former Short Creek. The issue is that Jeffs 1) Allegedly forced girls into these marriages, and that 2) He was an accessory to rape. He is not being charged with being a polygamist, cult leader, or anything of the like; he is being charged with enabling the commission of violent crimes. Does that clear things up?209.169.114.213 03:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- I thought polygamy was illegal? I don't think it matters if you religiously believe in it or not. If you take a person who is under 18/21 years of age, who is not a consenting adult (go look up consent on the wikipedia or whereever, more often than not even if you are 16 or older, your partner can't be over a certain age until you yourself are over 18/21), and marry them off to an older man without a choice? And when I say without a choice, I mean they most likely know no other way of living their life, and are probably scared of what will happen to them if they say no. I'm not saying all polygamist marriges are like that. But when you start involving children against their will, you've seriously crossed a line. Disinclination 05:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I suspect that the REAL ISSUE is the massive Welfare load his followers have placed on the national socialist system. It was reported that the male members of Jeffs' sect work, but the unlicensed plural wives sign up for Welfare, Food Stamps and other entitlements. This tactic is quite a potent one, and was not to be tolerated, as we all can see. --Jetgraphics 10:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's stop the conspiracy theories etc since this is supposed to be about the article not about Warren Jeffs or religious freedom, or whatever else you want to talk about. Nil Einne 16:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Freedom of religion does not allow you to follow any religious belief in America. It protects religions from being targeted by the government See Lemon v. Kurtzman. The Supreme Court says a law which has the effect of interfering with religion can be constituional if 1) there is a legitimate secular purpose 2) it doesn't have the primary purpose of advancing or inhibiting a religion and 3)there must not be excessive government entanglement with religion. For instance, human sacrifices can be illegal under murder laws, as long as the purpose is to stop murder and not to inhibit the religion. People can be arrested for smoking marijuana as long as the purpose of the law is to control narcotics and not to hurt the religion in question. Sometimes though, reasonable accommodation can be demanded (wearing head veils or yarmulkes in some cases, are protected even though an employer doesn't like it).
Statement without citation
- ...a sect that broke away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when the latter denounced polygamy in 1890, something the founder of all Mormonism, Joseph Smith, believed to be a prophet of God by members, had encouraged in the belief that they were restoring original Christianity.
I removed this portion last week because the last portion stated that he believed that they were restoring origional christianity is unfounded to my knowledge. It was a little presumptuous to just remove it, but I believe it should be removed unless a reference from joseph smith's writings is placed. I think a citation is necessary because the statement makes sound LDS members sound hipocritical without mentioning thier belief in continuing revelation (like when in acts the need for circumcision and the rule that the gospel was only for the jews were both changed).--72.130.179.41 15:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Edits
Added clarification that the charges Jeffs faces in Utah are first-degree felonies (as sourced in the linked court document), that each charge carries five years to life, and that Jeffs is being held without bond until his next hearing on 21 Nov 2006.
More Edits
I reverted the edit from an IP address removing the following text: "*Carolyn Jessop - , left Merril Jessop and took her seven children (Former wife of Merril Jessop)". I am not sure if this is a true statement or what the source is, but as the anonymous editor deleted it without comment, I thought it should be added back on. Fundamentaldan 16:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
External links
There are a crapload of external links and references, most of which are a bunch of news articles. We don't need this many links. I think we should use some to cite and then trash the rest. Hbdragon88 02:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- The link on http://www.sltrib.com/ci_4753187?source=rss doesn't work. -- Dietrich Benninghaus 06:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
