Talk:Warren Grimm

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Warren Grimm article.
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[edit] Early comments

Note to others — there is a recent history of edit warring behind these comments. That is the reason that simply editing the article doesn't appear to be a solution, at least not until the parties to the edit war can engage in some discussion. This represents an attempt to begin such a discussion.

Panther1991, it appears to me that you've written an interesting article about a very brave man, but it has some significant errors. The article omits information necessary to understanding what happened when it declares:

With the Legionnaires paused in front of the Roderick Hotel, Grimm gave the command to “Halt… Close Up.” At that instant, shots broke out.

This appears to deliberately accept the abbreviated and sensationalist account of Stewart Holbrook, who also states,

What happened in the next split second has been hopelessly in dispute for the past twenty-nine years. http://www.workerseducation.org/crutch/others/true.html

You will note that i believe you also edit under 65.6.152.232, and that you have extrapolated your imagined sequence of events to the point where [you've written],

The clash was initiated when IWW snipers, perched on rooftops, fired into American Legion troops who had paused to reform ranks while on parade. This attack resulted the shooting deaths of four Legionnaires, the wounded of at least a dozen more, and the subsequent storming of the Wobblie Hall by the remaining Legionnaires. The Legionnaires, though initially unarmed, were able capture a number of IWW members and turn them over to local authorities. These IWW members were formally arrested and jailed. [emphasis added]

This adds much to even the Holbrook account; he never made these statements. Where did they come from?

Holbrook was a popular writer (not a historian) who obviously did not have access to the research of historians. Otherwise, why would he believe that what happened was in dispute? When your source admits he doesn't know what happened, it is prudent to seek other sources!

But you've also cited just such a source that does report what happened, from the University of Washington Libraries:

During the parade, not unexpectedly, the Centralia Legionnaires slowed to leave a gap between their group and the Chehalis group ahead of them. The Centralia group stopped in front of the I.W.W. hall, and a subset of the Centralia group left the main group, ran to the I.W.W. hall, and forced the door open. Much to their surprise, they were met by gunfire. There is little doubt, from later testimony, most notably that of Dr. Frank Bickford who admitted leading the raid, that the Legionnaires initiated the conflict. [emphasis added] http://content.lib.washington.edu/iwwweb/read.html

But this isn't the only writer who quotes Dr. Bickford.

There is this:

...an Associated Press dispatch from Centralia, Washington, mentioning, quite casually and incidentally, that Dr. Frank Bickford, one of the marchers, testified at the coroner's inquest that "the former soldiers attacked the I.W.W. hall before any shots were fired." http://www.teleread.org/brasscheckfull.htm

In the book Lumber and Labor by Vernon Horton Jensen, the author states,

Dr. Frank Bickford... [said] the door of the I.W.W. was kicked open before the shooting from inside began. [1]

(I'd be happy to provide more references, if you want additional sources...)

You ignore the specificity of the history that you yourself have cited, in order to project your own biases into the article. You'd rather leave Wikipedia readers without this critical information, because it doesn't conform with your notion that the IWW must have initiated the attack.

If in citing a historian you distort or ignore his statements of fact, at the very least that appears to be a fraudulent practice.

I'm not interested in engaging in an edit war on this page, one edit war is enough. But i would like to discuss what appears to be this intentional misrepresentation of the very source this article cites.

For others, there is more information on this and related articles/editing issues at:

Talk:Centralia_Massacre_(Washington)#First_Step_in_a_Dispute_Resolution_Process

best wishes, Richard Myers 04:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grimm page vs. Centralia Page

Phi Alpha Theta buff 17:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC) Phi Alpha Theta buff

To Panther1991... Is that you, Ash? If so, good start, but you need to watch the inflammatory aspects.

Although I appreciate this article, I feel that it's more important to focus on his personal history and good character, and NOT the disputed events of the Centrial Massacre or theoretical motivations IWW. I think I have more "right" than anyone (with the possible exception of my dad) to write about Warren Grimm.

As a side note, if you are also 65.6.152.232, that is SERIOUSLY NOT COOL.

To 65.6.152.232 ...you are definitly NOT! since you obviously know who I am, I'd appreciate the courtesy of you identifying yourself.

[edit] future Warren Grimm edits

Hey Bruce!!! ....the real one....

Yes, this is Ash ...forgot my Panther1991 password & hadn't loaded email address....duhhhhh.... finally gave up & created new screen name. ...ergo Panther1992...

First things first.... no, am NOT 65.6.152.232. ...Think I know who it is.... guess the usual suspect.... yeah, small world.... don't want her messing up my articles either.... More importantly, I think we're connecting through the same proxy server so I don't want our access cut off!!!! ...if it is who I think, will take care of it... scouts' honor!

Second... show some originality. ...."Phi Alpha Theta buff"?????? ....sheeze!!!

Third, give me a break!!! Maybe I did go a little over the top on Lt. Grimm, but hey..... there is the football link & this my first post too! ..funky timing!!! Ping you on future edits, but bet you two beers that I still know more about the "Wedge" part than you do. Saw the Wobbly's stuff on citations... you're being nice & polite... but will work on that too.

Later!!!

[edit] Uploading Pictures

Phi Alpha Theta buff 21:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC) Phi Alpha Theta buff

DUUUUUDE! I THOUGHT I recognized Gigi's picture of Warren Grimm from his Washington Husky days! What did you do, take it out of the frame and scan it in?

I think I know who you're referring to. ARGHHHHH! Let me know what happens, this whole thing has gotten under my skin too!

Besides, the IWW gentlemen is also playing nice. You must admit, we've kinda crashed this party late.

Look at it this way, these articles should be more like Encyclopedia Brittanica and less like a college term paper. Let sleeping dogs lie.

On a lighter subject, do you have a copy of the picture of Grimm in his uniform, the picture of the Centralia townspeople in front of the building, and do you remember the http: to that picture of the IWW Mural in Centralia? If so, please upload them (much easier than trying to get from my dad!).

I want to add some images to the Centralia Massacre piece and am going to do articles on Everest and McElfresh.

Hey, going foward, let's take this offline and use regular email. I don't want to muddy up these boards.


PS. You think MY moniker is bad!?! You transfered your junior year!  :-)

[edit] Welcome to Wikipedia

Welcome to Wikipedia to both of you.

Lets try to get you up to speed on some Wikipedia discussion protocols, and some other useful info:

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  • Normally, discussion on a talk page (such as this one) should be about the article — how to improve it, etc. But it is also possible to move unrelated discussion from a talk page to an archive file. So for now, discussion not relating to the article on this page is fine. Good to be careful about that on other pages, however.
  • When you do edting but are not logged in (i.e., when you have momentarily forgotten your password... ;-) your edits will reflect your IP address rather than your login ID. These two modes of editing are considered equivalent for many purposes on Wikipedia. In practice, however, it is always more friendly to do edits logged in as yourself. That allows other editors to contact you with greater certainty; it is also important to fostering a sense of community with Wikipedians who share similar interests.

I hope these tips have been helpful. I'm glad that you've joined the Wikipedia community, and look forward to working on these articles with you to make Wikipedia a reliable resource for readers. Richard Myers 23:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the Warren Grimm article

Of all articles on Wikipedia, biographies are the most likely to be deleted. The theory appears to be, if six billion people on the planet each wanted their own biography, and one for each of their relatives or personal heroes, then there wouldn't be enough computer storage in the world to accomplish that. Therefore, the first hurdle is notability.

I have created numerous biographies, including Anna LoPizzo, J. Bernard Hogg, and Amelia Milka Sablich. All three of these were challenged and flagged for either deletion, or speedy deletion, two of them having been tagged within hours of being created. All three of these biography articles survived, but only after, in each case, a crisis period that extended for many days or, in one case, months. To me, all of these seemed to be people of great significance. All it takes is for one other person on Wikipedia to disagree, and you're vaulted into a grueling process if you want your article to survive.

As the author of the page, you are the one person who is not allowed to remove a tag for speedy deletion. If this happens to your article, you may be faced with spending countless hours fixing problems with the article, locating sources, adding citations, and trying to convince others that the article is worthwhile. It is much better to avoid such procedures by being very careful about the article in the first place.

If your article survives questions of notability, then subsequent guidelines and help can be found here.

Concerning the Warren Grimm article, i would pay particular attention to this issue.

You may want to add a redirect page for Warren Grimm's nickname, i can show you how if you wish.

Also, i suggest adding him to this page.

best wishes, Richard Myers 20:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Phi Alpha Theta buff 19:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC) Mr. Myers, I'll be editing this article going forward instead of Panther1992. I've started to add citations and links per your suggestions. I'm going to work on the more subjective comments next. Checking your aforementioned bio examples. If you can show me how to do the re-direct page, I'd apprecriate it. Thank you!!
Creating a re-direct page is really easy.
I'll do one, and use that as an example.
I type into the search box on the left, the title of the page that i want to use.
In this case, i'll type in Warren O. (Wedge) Grimm and click on GO.
I get a red link in the text, You searched for Warren O. (Wedge) Grimm [Index]
I click on that red text to start the page.
In the box, i click on #R in the buttons.
I type the name of the actual page, Warren Grimm, where it says Insert text
You'll want to click Watch this page in case anyone tinkers with it, and type something like "start page" in the edit summary.
Save, and you're done!
Now, if anyone types in Warren O. (Wedge) Grimm you get the correct page, with a notation that says (Redirected from Warren O. (Wedge) Grimm)
To edit an existing re-direct page, you type it in, let it re-direct, and then use the special link to go back to it.
Now the page that i've created isn't very useful, because few people will search for Warren O. (Wedge) Grimm
But i suggest creating (at least) a page for Wedge Grimm, and for any other variations that you think might be useful. You can click on my link here to start that page.
Now, a couple of observations. Wikipedia has a strange search feature. In most cases it doesn't deal with capitals or punctuation very well, and it is just plain funky. So you want to try to create redirect pages for any formulation of Warren Grimm that you think people might search for — up to a point, that is; there's no reason to create more than five or so.
A better method of searching Wikipedia is to use Google's site: feature. It ignores capitalization and punctuation differences to give a better result.
best wishes, Richard Myers 01:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Starting Updates

Phi Alpha Theta buff 10:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC) Starting on changes and footnotes for this article. Please note, updates to the Centralia Massacre article will take preference, so updates here will be a little slow.

Also, please realize, THIS article will continue to put more emphasize on the facts supporting a "pro-Warren Grimm/American Legion" point of view of the events around Centralia Massacre (yes, with required references!!).... it is GRIMM's biography, after all. Likewise, I will do the same when I tackle McElfresh.

IN CONTRAST, work on the Wesley Everest and Elmer Smith biographies will emphasize facts supporting the I.W.W. point of view on the Massacre. KEEPING IT FAIR.

For direct comparison (and hopefully good balance) of the different points of view and contrasting facts, contentions, testimonies, etc., please go to the Centralia Massacre article directly. Thanks!

PS. One final note to all readers... 65.6.152.232 is a shared IP address for faculty and certain students. We recently had issues with an anonymous user making "bad" edits. That person has been barred from the network. Likewise, most contributors should now have a sign in name/user ID. Occassionally, one of us will forget to sign in (myself included.. oops!) However, if you encounter any inflammatory updates from the anonymous IP address, please send me TALK directly with a heads up and reference Thanks!

[edit] Concerning achieving balance in the historical account

The article is somewhat improved, but appears to still be biased.

Bias can also be introduced through omission, or down-playing of the history that doesn't appear to serve one's point of view. For example, consider this excerpt:

"The hall was looted in 1918 during a Red Cross parade, allegedly at the hands of the local lumber companies."

"Looting" is a totally inadequate description of what happened. It was an ATTACK.

It would have been in keeping with IWW philosophy to suggest that the lumber companies were ultimately behind this attack. But identifying only the lumber companies in this Wikipedia article serves to shield the community from any responsibility. And indeed, it appears that we know more precisely who committed the attack. This is from the Washington State Historical Society:

In May of the year that would see the end of World War I, members of the Centralia Home Guard and Elks marched in a parade to raise money for the Red Cross. The marchers broke ranks in front of the IWW hall and raided it, throwing furniture, records and Wobbly literature into the street and setting it on fire. A desk and phonograph from the hall were auctioned off and the money donated to the Red Cross. The men inside the hall were "lifted by their ears" into a truck, driven out of town where they were forced to run the gauntlet while being beaten with sticks and ax handles.

Beatings, burning, destruction of records, destruction of furniture, theft of property, kidnapping, expulsion. How can anyone consider "looting" a fair description of this brutality?

Also, consider that the Centralia Home Guard and the Elks were not the alleged "local lumber companies." They most probably included "pillars" of the community, and probably either were connected with, or had close ties to the authorities.

Now, if this more complete history is considered, it would seem that the IWW members simply found it necessary to take up arms to defend their union hall, and possibly to protect their very lives from another, expected, illegal attack.

That makes it self-defense, in a community where the authorities cannot be appealed to for protection, for those very authorities may have sanctioned or ignored the previous, life-threatening attack.

What is the precise history? I cannot say, because i haven't yet studied this massacre thoroughly.

But the difference between what is here in the Warren Grimm article, and what has been published by the Washington State Historical Society, is quite stark.

If the account of the Washington State Historical Society is even partially true, then that puts everything that followed under a very different light.

The actual events may be open to interpretation, or dispute. But it could be argued that Warren Grimm died at least in part, resulting from events resulting from the bias and evil intentions of some in the community who sought to illegally attack individuals who, finally, decided to stand up and defend themselves.

Was Warren Grimm sympathetic to those who attacked the union hall, or might he have sought to stop them from committing a rash and dangerous act? As far as i know, the record is unclear. But let us please not place all of the blame on victims who finally decided they'd had enough abuse.

best wishes, Richard Myers 00:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Threatening letters

I'm wondering what proof exists that "the enraged IWW was sending death threats to Mrs. Grimm..."

Were these death threats from the national organization? The local organization? From local, known IWW members? From parties who remained anonymous?

I'd like to see these claims clarified, substantiated, or removed.

best wishes, Richard Myers 00:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)