Talk:War on Terrorism/Archive 7

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Contents

NPOV

NPOV dispute was never resolved. -- 130.126.138.6 21:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is seriously lacking in NPOV, one of the worse I saw to this day, presumably because of the emotional issue it stirrs. Its tone discredits Wikipedia's credibility. The article is mostly a criticism of the Bush policy on terrorism, not a neutral encyclopedia article. Every single assertion by a government is loaded with heavy disclaimers that mark them as extremely questionnable, which is not conversely true for the opposite POV. Therefore the article should be locked and reviewed by independent experts on the field, with equal weight given the government coalitions that initiated the WOT and their opponents.

R. Broenck.

"used by the united states"

The intro says "the name used by the US". Shouldn't this be "the name coined by the Bush administration"? I'm not American, but from what I gather, even some of them don't buy into it. yandman 12:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It's used by more than just the Bush administration and permeates more than just the government. I am an American and can tell you that even those that disagree with Bush's policy use the term "War on Terrorism" or a similar variation to describe the conflict. So while the Bush administration may have "coined" the term, but it is used at all levels of American society. --Bobblehead 14:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Really? That I didn't know. Thanks for enlightening me. yandman 17:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah I think it should probably changed to "a name used in the United States" to be more WP:NPOV. Anyone else agree? Hello32020 23:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
"a name used mainly in the United States"? yandman 16:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
That really isnt accurate though, it is the name of the campaign regardless of whether you live in the USA or Zimbabwe. It may not be what people call it everywhere, however. I edited the entire lead paragraph so that it sounds better as well as made it more accurate. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

subtle POV

What troubles me is the term "a campaign". I think that this in itself carries a certain subtle POV: that the different military actions carried out under this label are linked. For example, most countries agree that invading Afghanistan was justified. Far fewer believe that invading Iraq was. By arbitrarily putting these two wars under one campaign name, the US administration was trying to justify the latter by "bundling" it with the former. I think the intro should go: "a series of campaigns, grouped under the name GWOT by ..." Opinions? yandman 07:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Its not misleading or POV, it is a single campaign being carried out by the USA with help from allies. Some allies dont agree with some parts, some arent participating in some parts. But regardless of this, its still one campaign. Justifications dont hold any bearing on it. It isnt a series of campaigns, its a single campaign, which is a series of operations. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
<unsure> But the campaign was named retrospectively, wasn't it? From what I gather, they invaded Afghanistan first, and then in the run up to Iraq, they said it was all the same campaign.</unsure> yandman 07:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
When the afghan war began it was under the war on terror, it started as operation enduring freedom, this operation was then split into smaller operations, OEF-A, OEF-HOA, OEF-P, under this also falls NATO led Operation Active Endeavor, OIF (Iraq War), and I believe the Israel - Lebanon issue, as both Bush and Israel agreed. --NuclearZer0 20:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
"both Bush and Israel agreed": That's the problem, isn't it? This is a "war" whose definition is unilateral. I'm not sure if we can apply the undue weight policy and ignore this, or not. yandman
Who else but the participants get to decide? I am not sure how its undue weight to say Israel attacked Labanon with military arms support from the US and both stated they did it because of the War on Terrorism ... Is Labanon saying its not true, I mean they would be the only side that can deny the claims to argue undue weight. --NuclearZer0 13:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
It is multiple campaigns, clearly. I prefer the suggested wording. Kevin Baastalk 16:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Kevin, I think you are misunderstanding what a campaign is. Its by no means the same operation, hence the different operation names, but they have all been carried out under the larger campaign. And yandman, the WoT is a campaign, which can be unilaterally defined. ~Rangeley (talk) 23:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Campaigns are part of a war. It was a campaign to topple the Taliban. It was a campaign to topple Saddam. They're part of the overall War. Now I disagree with the phrase "War on Terror" because you can't fight a word. It should be "War against Islamic Jihadists" or something like that. And trying to pretend that Iraq isn't part of the overall war is silly. Saddam did work with terrorists, just not Al Qaeda. But that's besides the point. Currently, Iraq is the hotspot for terrorists. Hezbollah is training them, Iran is training, Al Qaeda is there...if it's not at least a part of this war, then what is it? And trying to exclude Iraq is like saying the battle to retake the Philipines was not a part of WWII because the US went in relatively alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Culmo80 (talk • contribs)

Death toll

The Lancet study on the number of deaths in Iraq seems to be peer-reviewed and well-grounded in solid statistics. Any objections to it being put in as an alternate figure? (The official count should stay included as well, of course) -Xiroth 15:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


I am jut wondering why the death toll listed here makes note of the Middle Eastern deaths, yet fails to mention how many casualties there have been recorded for the Western nations fighting in this war? Is it perhaps a number the United States & their allied governments would like to keep quiet in an attempt to fool the public into thinking we're actually making progress here?


Don't be silly, it's not about "fooling the public" at all. And what are you talking about, we are reminded daily how many casualties we take by the media. And progress isn't measured in blood. Just remember, the bloodiest year of the US civil war was 1864...the bloodiest year of WWII was 1945...I'm not saying we're about to win in Iraq, but we don't measure success in blood. Culmo80 18:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)culmo80

This article is grossly biased and questionable

This does in way mean that I support the Baath in Iraq, but they are not international terrorists. Neither are Hezbollah and Hamas. There must be neutrality in this article. The Baath are acting in resistance to occupation or whatever you want to call it. 69.196.164.190

As stated in the article itself, the campaign is being waged against those seen by the USA as terrorists and state sponsors of terror, which they are indeed seen as. ~Rangeley (talk) 04:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


Actually, Hezbollah IS an international terrorist group. They have bombed Israel buildings in South America and the very fact that they cross several borders in the Middle East make them international...hence the root....inter and then national. And the definition of terrorist is what? Whether or not we could address the former Baathists is another topic; the fact that they use terrorist tactics sure should make it clear what they are, right? If you rob banks, you're a bank robber, you don't get away with saying you're freedom fighters...sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Culmo80 (talk • contribs)

I've taken out Hamas, since they are not even mentioned in the article. Infoboxes are secondary to the article and generally shouldn't contain anything not supported by the article itself. Quadpus 03:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The case of India and Russia

So what does the term War on Terrorism really mean? Does it mean the war the U.S. is fighting against terrorism or does it have a more general meaning? For example, India and Russia have been fighting against terrorism for a long time now. India has lost more civilians due to terrorist activities than any other country. Groups like Jaish-e-Muhammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba are a part of the larger Al-Qaeda network. And then there are the Chechen rebels. These groups have claimed more innocent lives than Al-Qaida but yeah most of those killed weren't Americans. Just because these groups are not involved in terrorist activities against the U.S. doesn't mean they aren't important enough to be mentioned. Just because India and Russia refuse to be a part of the American military operation in Afghanistan and Iraq, doesn't mean that their own war against terrorism be disregarded. --Incman|वार्ता 20:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This article is about the US-led campaign, not the general idea of a war on terror, which deserves its own article. ~Rangeley (talk) 20:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, when I read the first four lines of the article, I was able to conclude that. However, when I saw Israel as one of the participants I got confused. Now, as far as I know, Israel has not directly taken part in the so-called War on Terrorism in Afghanistan, Iraq and Philippines.--Incman|वार्ता 21:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
One more point, shouldn't the lead-in para clearly state that this article refers to the US-led campaign against terrorism? The title itself is misleading. Thanks --Incman|वार्ता 21:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The US-led campaign is not limited to those three locations, and includes all operations which are stated both by the USA and the respective government as being a part of it. The Waziristan War, for instance, involved no US troops, but was a part of this campaign. The war in Lebanon had no US troops, but was also a part of this campaign. The lead paragraph does state it was launched by the USA with help from allies. ~Rangeley (talk) 04:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... makes more sense now. Thanks for the insight! --Incman|वार्ता 05:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

IEDs and Terrorism

I have removed IEDs from the list of terrorist tactics in the narrow infobox at right-hand side of the page. According to the Wikipedia page, terrorism is "...violence ... committed (or threatened) against civilians". According to the Wikipedia page on IEDs, "...insurgents have made the IED (often referred to by the press as roadside bombs) one of their main weapons against coalition forces." (emphasis added) Nowhere in the IED article is there any mention of these devices being used against civilians. How then are they a tactic of terrorism? They are simply another type of bomb, much like land mines, cruise missiles or nuclear bombs. PurpleRain 21:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

IED's are often an insurgent weapon I would say, however considering the nature of IED's they seem to be non standard explosives, which would constitute much of the bombs used in the country. I personally would classify it as an insurgent weapon/tactic, not necessarily a terrorist tactic/weapon. --NuclearZer0 21:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations please

Investigations have been started through many branches of many governments, pursuing tens of thousands of tips. Thousands of people have been detained, arrested, or questioned.[citation needed] Many of those targeted have been secretly detained, and have been denied access to an attorney. Among those secretly detained are U.S. citizens. [citation needed]

Thanks ManicParroT 22:05, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

2003 Istanbul bombings missing on main events section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Istanbul_bombings

i fee las if this is going for the good i thing this is reasonable what the discussion is about

Added "Weasel words" template

Just a few examples:

"many have seen the US definitions as ideologically motivated"

"many deny terrorist affiliations, and many perceive the War on Terror as a "Clash of Civilizations" or as a "crusade" against Islam"

"The war has also been perceived by some as an attempt by the U.S. government to "reform" several political regimes"

"The war has met with criticism even from some supporters of its general aims, who claim the rhetoric is too broad and too influenced by "neo-conservative" ideas to remake the Middle East in a certain image"

--PurpleRain 14:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal for change in infobox

Since the infobox is probably the most often and most easily read part of the page, I think there is one important thing that should be changed there. My proposal is: instead of the two lists that list "combatants" on one side or the other ("participants" vs. "targets"), maybe it would be more accurate to rather create just *one* list of conflicts or "sub-conflicts" that are part of the US war on terror. For example two items of this new list would then read: "NATO vs. Taliban (Afghanistan)" and "US,UK&Allies vs. Ba'athist-Iraq (Iraq)" etc... I find this important, because now, readers that are not so well-informed about world politics will think that the US war on terror is a simple two-sided conflict. Where in fact, there are several, mutually unlinked (sub-)conflicts, and each of these (sub-)conflicts has its very special features, pre-history and so on. What these conflicts have in common is that they are part of / taken under the roof of this bigger, global campaign by the USA. What do you think? (Sorry that I haven't created a wikipedia account yet) 84.148.76.63 04:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)--Mor

Why it's not a war on Islam

According to Rush Limbaugh, the whole reason why the conflict is labeled as the war on terror is because it would essentially be titled as a war on Islam if all of the specific enemies of the USA where listed. Quite a few of them have Islam this or Muslem that in their name, so I can understand this. Then again only about 20 million Americans trust Limbaugh so I thought I would stirr up discussion and see if more knowledgable people than myself had more answeres.

I noticed that in other places in the discussion section, it has been noted that who is and who isn't a terrorist in this conflict is defined by the USA. Because of that, I suspect that a lot of people actually know what I'm talking about here (especially the people talking in the The case of India and Russia' discussion). Anyways, it couldn't hurt to look into why George W. Bush didn't just declare a war on Al Queda, or Afganistan instead of ALL terrorism.

Any real discussion of this would be hopelessly OR.
The short answer is: he did. There is no actual official "war on terror", no official declaration of war (compared to, of course, the actual declaration of war against Afghanistan). The "War on Terror" is presumably named after Nixon's "War on Drugs".
The long answer is a long discussion of political tactics and ideology which would inevitably be OR and POV. - Che Nuevara 00:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


Because when you declare war under all the rules of war, you declare war against nations only. It's impossible to actually declare war against individuals. We fought Nazi Germany, not Hitler. Since most Islamic terrorists are international terrorists, it'd be impossible to declare war against them, especially since they own now land and fight under no flag and wear no uniform. The War on Drugs and the War on Poverty were slogans...obviously you can't wage war against something like that just like you can't wage war against a technique...terrorism. We're in a war alright but the old laws really don't apply because there's nothing written for this sort of conflict. Yes, it's a war against Radical Islam and yes it wasn't called that for politically correct reasons. Finally, this is a global war and it's been going on for a lot longer than what most people think. You could really say it started sometime in the 70s with the real first battle being fought during the Lebanonese Civil War. Russia, India, nearly all of Europe...just about every nation has been hit by terrorists all screaming "Allahu Ackbar!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Culmo80 (talk • contribs)


Maybe you're in a bigoted and imperialist war with Islam mate, but I'm not, and neither are tens of millions of those Americans and Brits who actually happen to be sane. So please, define "we" next time. Also, do yourself some credit and research the term "Allah Ackbar". If any of your so-called "terrorist" buddies were actually fundamentalist Muslims, they would know that "Allah Ackbar" is not what a Muslim is supposed to say before he or she meets his end. Shame that, eh? Coconuteire 22:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Huh. Because, you know, it turns out there are many non-Islamic terrorism organisation that are active. Animal rights activists in England, abortion-clinic bombers in the US, nationist organisations across Ireland, Spain, France, India, Sri Lanka, etc. It really irritates me when people try to pretend that all terrorists are Islamic, or even worse, when they say that all terrorists base their terrorism on Islam (Lebanon/Palestine for example is basically a nationalist movement of people who happen to be Islamic). Limbaugh is not credible in any way, shape or form. Oh, and using the cut-off of "20 million Americans believe it" is a pretty low bar ;) We'd have to rewrite wiki to say the sun revolves around the earth ;) Sad mouse 05:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey, at least your not arrogant about it.....--Looper5920 21:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Causalities

Might be more accurate to write "Some Causalities"? SolitaryWolf 06:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

(It may just be me, not looking properly but:) Casualties have been stated. These stated numbers are suppossed to be up to date or correct, as of what date? User: cs1kh

Vandalism

Seriously guys, who the fuck vandalises an encylopedia Thats low.

Somalia -- Part of GWoT or not?

There has been some argument about whether Somalia is part of the Global War on Terror. You can discuss it here (instead of reverting and re-reverting changes). Some articles to get you started:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20060513/ai_n16369653

  • "It's a well-established fact for the last few years that U.S. counterterrorism officials and other intelligence officials have been working through Somali partners to fight extremists..."
  • "American operatives were paying the warlords to help track down and apprehend those in Somalia suspected of being members of al-Qaida."

http://www.georgesoros.com/war-on-terror

  • "George W Bush says...'The first concern, of course, is to make sure that Somalia does not become an al-Qaeda safe haven - it doesn't become a place from which terrorists can plot and plan...'"
  • "Since the 11 September attacks on the United States...Somalis have feared that their lawless country could become the setting for a battle between US-backed anti-terror forces and al-Qaeda sympathisers."

http://againstwot.com/2006/06/united-states-and-somalia-who_07.html

  • "The Council on Foreign Relations...published a brief on Somalia explaining that the Bush administration was afraid of terrorism in Somalia..."
  • "The threat the United States poses to Somalia far, far outweighs any threat Somalia poses to the United States."

—PurpleRAIN 16:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there any sources that state it is? Thats all I am looking for before someone adds it back. --NuclearZer0 17:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not that clear-cut. You probably won't find a source that says, "The conflict in Somalia is a part of the Global War on Terrorism." Nonetheless, it seems that there are anti-terrorism activities sanctioned by the U.S. government occurring in Somalia (see the first article above). When does a conflict "officially" become part of the GWoT? It's hard to say. —PurpleRAIN 20:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
When someone involved in the WoT says so, meaning of that particular side and with enough ability to state it is so. Such as Bush stating Lebanon was, and Israeli Prime Minister agreeing. NATO declaring the operation part of it etc. If sources are not stating its part of the WoT, then there is probably a reason for that. --NuclearZer0 22:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
It's nice that American operatives are paying warlords for information to track down members of al-Qaeda, but that has nothing to do with the War in Somalia (2006-present). It is a civil war, like there are more in Africa. Not every war is a war against terrorism. Therefore, imho, it should be removed.
Van der Hoorn 13:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Somalia is -so is Ethiopia see cite. <<-armon->> 02:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. It was a lot less concrete a claim that it was involved until these strikes, but now we have both diplomatic support as well as outright military involvement. ~Rangeley (talk) 02:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


Not one of those sources mention that the conflict is part of the GWOT... You cannot include that it is without providing sources proving that someone of authority said it is part of it. Sfacets 21:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is your definitive source "Pentagon: Somalia Part of War on Terror" ~Rangeley (talk) 22:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

World War III?

Is it too early to call GWOT World War III? And if it is too early, are the conflicts taking place in the Middle East, combined with increasing aggression, nuclear ambitions, and support for terrorism by Iran and Syria, setting the world on a course toward a third world war? Also, is Hugo Chavez's totalitarian regime in Venezuela attempting to start a new "Domino Effect" in the Western Hemisphere? User:wxstorm 12:23, 11 December 2006

It is until it's generally regarded as such. It's likely you'd be able to a find a pundit or two who refers to it as WW3, but otherwise no. Also we're the wrong people to ask about "domino effects" etc. Find reliable sources talking about these issues and then we can discuss whether they merit mention. <<-armon->> 00:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hugo Chavez's "regime" (he was recently re-elected with the results certified by international observers) is barely more totalitarian than Bush's, and certainly much less of a threat to the rest of the world and his own people. It really takes someone who does not have any concept of what is going on this decade to suggest that Venezuela would be part of the enemies in the "war on terror." If there is a conflict between the US and US allies, and Venezuela, it is completely different and more comparable to a continuation of the Cold War, i.e. capitalism vs socialism- this can be seen today in strained US relations with a number of new social democratic governments in Latin America, which are not adhering as closely to the "Washington consensus" that drove their people further into poverty. And of course that's all completely irrelevant to the article. You do realize Venezuela continues to happily supply huge amounts of oil to the US as well? 172.129.141.181 12:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Add a disambig for the game?

Earlier today, I added a disambig line for "War On Terror", since it is also the name of a game (and, since there's no reference from the War On Terrorism page to this game, it would be easy for people to assume no such page exists). Thoughts? 64.81.138.223 05:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Usage of the term "War on Terror(ism)" outside the US

I might be a bit dim here, but the opening paragraph states:

The War on Terrorism or War on Terror....the name given by the United States of America and its allies to an ongoing campaign with...

and the supporting reference is [[1]], as a resident of the UK, I find it difficult to accept that the term is used outside the US, could someone explain to me how this reference supports this claim? It has been added twice by two different editors, so it must have merit, but unfortunately, I can't see it! (Thanks in advance for explaining this to me)86.12.249.63 19:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

You can read more here [2], shows it being used by NATO and Canada, Germany I think and another country. Some links may be down, made that some time ago. Feel free to pull some of the NATO ones for there if you please. --NuclearZer0 20:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, it'll take me a while to go through them! 86.12.249.63 20:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Copperchair sockpuppets

This page is a favorite of Copperchair (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) and his sockpuppets. Copperchair was placed on probation and banned from editing certain types of articles by the Arbitration Committee. He was blocked from editing Wikipedia for repeatedly violating his restrictions on editing. He was finally blocked for 366 days on March 12, 2006. At that point he began using sockpuppets to evade his ban. Below is a list of his sockpuppets. If new editors appear on this page with editing patterns that are similar to the sockpuppets below, please let me know on my talk page or by e-mail so that I can investigate fully.

  1. Esaborio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  2. Varese Sarabande (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  3. SPECTRE (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  4. Tony Camonte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  5. The end is near (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  6. Don't fear the Reaper (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  7. Bad Night (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  8. Ossara (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  9. Warrior on Terrorism (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
  10. Osaboramirez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)

Thank you. TomTheHand 14:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Casualties section is basically US propaganda

The casualties section presents the lowest estimates I've ever seen, as if they were indisputed facts. This section needs an urgent rewrite, including information we've got for Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003 amonst other things. Damburger 07:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Then.. Umm.. rewrite it. Requests for rewrites are generally not very successful in getting the section in question rewritten. --Bobblehead 07:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not really a request for a rewrite, more a notice that I'm going to do one. I find it best to approach terrorism-related topics cautiously. I'm giving people chance to object. Damburger 08:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the addition of "Iraq - between 51,000 and 658,205" to the casualties section - this is kind of inaccurate as only the Lancet study measures all the excess deaths from the invasion, the other estimates for civilian casualties by their own admission only measure subsets of the death toll. I am going to change this range to the range estimated by the Lancet study (392,979 to 942,636 deaths) Damburger 23:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)