Talk:War of the Spanish Succession

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Archive 1

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Contents

[edit] One problem

Can you explaine me what's mean secomd and third note. --Vojvodaen 21:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong

It's wrong to say that in one faction was Spain and in the other th Crown of Aragon. The crown of Aragon is correct, but not Spain, but crown of Castille. I change it----Who plays violin 10:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC) 10:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's wrong both ways. Both Philip V and Charles "III" claimed being the true sovereigns of the Spanish Kingdoms. It was not a war between Aragon & Castille but between the Bourbon King and the Hapsburg King. --213.37.240.130 18:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree with anon: the Crown of Aragon didn't exist politically as such anymore since it merged with the Kingdom of Castile two centuries before. The component realms did exist legally and, indeed, most people in those (with some noticeable exceptions) joined Charles cause, but Charles didn't fight as the king of the Crown of Aragon as opposed to the kingdom of Castile or vice versa, for example, another historic kingdom, Navarre, mostly sided with Phillip. In Spain it was more like a civil war with supporters of either pretender elsewhere, and the pretenders were so to the Kingdom of Spain, not to particular smaller components of it as opposed to others, let alone to the Crown of Aragon, which had actually ceased to exist 200 years before. Mountolive | Talk 00:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some problems

Well, the article doesn't have inline references. I could fix that I suppose, but there are a couple of points strike me as rather odd:

  • "The latter [northern] theatre proved the more important". Did it? The war over the succession was surely won and lost in Spain.
  • "France and Spain, both under Bourbon monarchs, remained allies during the following years". So what about the War of the Quadruple Alliance?

Curious as to what others think. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The second point doesn't jibe with what I know of 18th century politics (which isn't much). The first is more my field. The key point to understand is that, despite being called the "War of the Spanish Succession", it should really have been called the "War of putting the kibosh on Louis XIVs ambitions of European Hegemony". Keeping either the Austrians or the French from becoming too powerful, while important, was a side issue. The easiest way into France was (and still is) from the Northeast, despite the fortress belt, and that's where the main armies of the protagonists concentrated (1704 aside). Defeat in Spain for either side would not have ended the war. Defeat on the Northern front (for the French) or on the Danube (for the Austrians) would have. MartinMcCann (talk) 16:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible merge from Queen Anne's War

There has been discussion on Talk:Queen Anne's War regarding the merging of that article into this. I see that this article is Featured (though perhaps not up to current standards?) so I wanted to get a bit more discussion before boldly merging. First, is it a merger a good idea? The Queen Anne's War article is a bit scant and doesn't have references to stand on its own. However I'm only marginally familiar with this topic so I can't be a perfect judge. It seems to me that they are different names for the same thing, and that Queen Anne's War was used to describe the conflict in the North American theatre. I see that this article doesn't much mention the goings-on in North America, and I believe it would be a net plus to include it under a "Queen Anne's War" heading. Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? -FrankTobia (talk) 14:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't support this solution. This is two different wars in historiography.--Vojvodaen (talk) 18:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I disagree, considering Queen Ann's war as separate is a Revisionist viewpoint. Queen Ann's War is part of the larger World War of the Spanish Succession. If you disagree then you disagree with my College professors who say Queen Ann's War is part of the larger war. I say merge the articles and reduce the Queen Ann's article to secondary article.Magnum Serpentine (talk) 17:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Should the QAW article be merged? No. Should this article mention the theatre? Yes. BTW Why is Rákóczi in the infobox? The Hungarian rebels weren't allies with France, no more than the Ottomans were during the NYW. 17:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, merge is not appropriate. But, this article has no content on Queen Anne's War. I think coverage similar to what the War of the Austrian Succession article gave King George's War in the "War outside Europe" section might be appropriate. On the other hand, the coverage War of the Grand Alliance gave King William's War is too much. BradMajors (talk) 20:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minor allies

footnotes 2 and 3, supposedly detailing minor allies in the war, seem to direct to other footnotes. Perhaps that should be fixed. -- Nudve (talk) 09:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan POV

This nonsense in the info box is starting up again. Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Valencia, Kingdom of Mallorca are now listed as combatants. See the talk archives for the last go-round. Rather than getting in a revert war, I figured to bring it up here. Coemgenus 16:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree. As I said back in the day, maybe a section in the article should be created as a playground for these people's concerns? Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 16:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Don't Agree. First of all: Titles of the "suposed" king of Spain:
Nos Don Felipe, por la gracia de Dios, Rey de Castilla, de Leon, de Aragon, de las dos Sicilias, de Jerusalen, de Navarra, de Granada, de Toledo, de Valencia, de Galicia, de Mallorca, de Sevilla, de Cerdeña, de Córdoba , de Córcega, de Murcia, de Jaen, de los Algirbes, de Algecíra, de Gibraltar, de las Islas de Canaria, de las Indias Orientales y Occidentales, Islas y Tierra-Firme del Mar Océano; Archiduque de Austria; Duque de Borgoña, de Brabante, y de Milan; Conde de Habspurg, de Flandes, del Tirol, y de Barcelona; Señor de Vizcaya y de Molina, &c. Source: [[1]]

Now, the titles of the other "suposed king" of Spain:
Nos Carolus Sextus Divina favente Clementia electus Romanorum Imperator semper Augustus, Rex Germaniae, Castellae, Arragonum, Legionis, utriusque Siciliae, Hierusalem, Hungariae, Bohemiae, Dalmatiae, Croatiae, Sclavoniae, Navarrae, Granatae, Toleti, Valentiae, Galleciae, Majoricarum, Seviliae, Sardiniae, Cordubae, Corsicae, Murciae, Giennis, Algarbiae, Algezirae, Gibraltaris, Insularum Canariae, & Indiarium ac terrae firmae Maris Oceani, etc;Archidux Austriae; Dux Burgundiae, Brabantia, Mediolani, Stiriae, Carinthiae, Carniolae, Limburgiae, Lucemburgiae, Geldriae, Wirtembergae, superioris et inferioris Silesiae, Calabriae, Athenarum, et Neopatriae;Princeps Sueviae, Cataloniae & Asturiae;Marchio Sacri Romani Imperii, Burgoviae, Moraviae, Superioris et inferioris Lusatiae;Comes Habspurgi, Flandriae, Tyrolis, Ferretis, Kyburgi, Goritiae & Arthesiae,Landgravius Alsatiae;Marchio Oristhani, et Comes Goziani, Namurci, Rossilionis, Cerretaniae; Dominus Marchiae Sclavicae, Portus Naonis, Biscaiae, Molinae, Salinarum, Tripolis, & Mechlinae, Source: [[2]]

As you may see, nor Philip neither Charles, used this imaginarious title of "king of Spain". So we can try to make history-fiction, and calling the Quenn Anne, the Queen of the United Kingdom in 1707, but this is obviously an attack against any sense of intelligence. In 1707 didnt't existed the United Kingdom, as didn't existed the Kingdom of Spain. User:Georg-hessen 18:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Before you defaced it, there was a footnote explaining the change from England and Scotland to the United Kingdom. Now it's half of a non-functioning footnote. Thanks.
As to your other concerns, Spain had been united under one man since 1516. Yes, he had a lot of titles. So did the Tsars of Russia; we don't list all of them separately each time Russia fought a war. Coemgenus 17:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The ref problem has been fixed. Your thanks are welcome.
To the other concern, this one person ruled, for instance, Philip II, ruled in England because he married with Mary Tudor. Do you mean that England and this "suposed kindom of Spain" where then a unique Kingdom. Is this what you mean??? A non-sense reasoning. A unique ruler don't impply a unique kingdom. You may go on with History-fiction, and talking about the Englaspain kingdom under Philip II. Please, we must be seriuos. User:Georg-hessen 19:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Let's be serious, indeed. Find a reliable source that says the Kingdoms of Valencia and Mallorca fought in this war, and we'll keep the changes you made. Absent that, the rules on reliable sources force us to refer to the combatant nations by the titles that every historian of that war does. I'd revert it again, but that would place me, like you, in violation of WP:3RR. Coemgenus 18:28, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
ok, thanks for your patiente. Revert it again and let me, as you say, find a reliable source that shows how the Kingdom of Aragon, the Kingdom of Valencia, the kingdom of Mallorca and the Princiality of Catalonia fought in this war. A pair of days, now i'm busy. Thanks again. User:Georg-hessen 19:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I could be wrong, but, to my understanding, since the throne was vacant and the king could not convoke and gather the respective Corts (a sort of Estates-General) there is no, say, "institutional" statement from any of those kingdoms supporting any given pretender. What indeed you may find are local statements supporting one or the other. For example, in the Kingdom of Valencia, Alicante (among others) supported Philip, whereas support for Charles was actually the rule over the rest of this kingdom. But, lacking any institutional statement that we could cling to, they were basically hollow structures or one more of the Spanish monarch titles, and, as such, it is nonsense to list them in the table. You would have to go "micro" to see which areas within each kingdom supported whom, something which is too troublesome to fit in the article, for not to mention in the table. This said, it is obvious that support for Charles was most staunch in the territories pertaining -nominally- to those kingdoms, which became his last strongholds. But to infer from there that the kingdoms themselves, as such, fought, is wrong.
Because those kingdoms were as vacant as the Spanish Monarchy they were a part of was. Mountolive all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair 19:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
With no doubt you are wrong. The point you are using may be used to reject the suportters of James Stuart, the so called jacobites Jacobitism. In the case of Catalonia and the others, there are, indeed, institutional statement from any of those kingdoms supporting to Charles III. So you are absolutly wrong or you are lying. User:Georg-hessen 20:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, let's not start throwing around accusations. Remember to assume good faith. Coemgenus 16:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Let me pitch in. The discussion here is not about giving a Catalan POV: it's about removing some interested confusions that are usually planted in the history of that age.
First of all, for full disclosure, I am a Catalan, and I agree fully User:Georg-hessen's statements. I don't think there is bad faith, though: Spanish historians tend to summarize out anything that hints at Spain being different kingdoms after the 15th century. They usually don't go as far as denying it, but they tiptoe around the issue. The fact is that the Crowns of Castille and Aragon merged into a dynastic union, but, from the king downwards, no merger was performed. Each kingdom kept its own laws, institutions, and borders. They collected taxes and had their own army, and sometimes they had the gall (and the power) to deny this army's help to the king. The king was required to perform an oath in front of each of the "Cortes" (in Spanish speaking territories) or "Corts" (in Catalan speaking territories) in order to be recognized as king. Since the Crown of Aragon had a "confederal" (heavily quoted, but take it as an analogy) structure, this meant five different oaths: Crown of Castile, Kingdom of Aragon, Catalonia, Kingdom of Valencia, and Kingdom of Majorca. Notice that the entries for each of these kingdoms (except the Majorcan) list the date of extinction during the War of Spanish Succession. As for Majorca, the English Wikipedia article is incomplete, but the kingdom did exist.
If you need non-Wikipedia sources, you may take a look at this source, which states that "For the purposes of administration one can say that all these territories were completely separate entities. There was e.g. a real border between Castile and Aragon, and in an administrative sense inhabitants of one entity were foreigners in the other." So, bear in mind, that, at that time, the term "Spain" is a geographic synonim for "Iberian Peninsula".
There is also the Britannica, which, in an entry that's not too sympathetic with Catalans, states, talking about the outcome of the war: "Paradoxically, a disastrous war had for the first time created a unitary Spanish state: except for the Basque provinces and Navarre, Spain was under direct royal administration."
Notice also that the Kingdom of Navarre, which remained loyal to Philip V, kept its separate status (with borders south at the Ebro river) until 1833. The other kingdoms lost this status as a punishment for siding with Charles during this war, by the Nueva Planta decrees.
I think this proves that all those kingdoms did exist. As for their support to one or the other pretender, I'll go on in a minute.

--Jout (talk) 23:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

To decide whose side everybody was on, we should look at what the authorities of each kingdom did. The current configuration of the info box suggests that France and Spain fought together against the Austrian, English and Dutch. This is ridiculous.

No doubt there were individuals (and even whole cities) who supported a different pretender from the rest of each kingdom, but this issue should be decided on what the Corts/Cortes and each kingdom's institutions did.

In 1701 and 1702, Philip took the oath in Barcelona (Catalonia) and Zaragoza (Aragon). He promised to respect their constitutions, agreed to several requests, and received some cash. He also took the oath in Castile. By the way, he got married in Figueres (Catalonia) in 1701.

However, soon problems started. Several Catalan authorities were imprisoned, unrest grew, and the Catalan ruling class suspected that the king had no intention to respect their constitutions, so they secretly made a pact with an English plenipotentiary and revolted against Philip in May 1705. By the end of August, Charles's fleet starts the siege of Barcelona, with the help of Catalan militias. Barcelona surrenders in a month, and Charles enters the city. He gathers the Corts (1705-1706) and becomes king Charles III. In december 1705, his troops take Valencia, and he is proclaimed king there. See also this link. Aragon sides with Charles when Philip crosses Aragon in order to try to recover Barcelona. The Spanish Wikipedia article states that Aragon and Mallorca joined Charles's cause in 1706.

So, the territories of the Crown of Aragon switched sides, and fought for Charles until the bitter end.

The siege of Barcelona (while Charles remains in the city) by Philip's army fails in may 1706. In july 1706, Charles takes Madrid, and he is proclaimed King of Castile, but soon has to flee to Valencia, where he spends fall 1706 and winter 1707, and organizes its institutions. After the battle of Almansa, and the losses of Aragon and Valencia, Barcelona becomes his capital, and he marries there in 1708 with Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel.

He lived there until 1711, when his brother died, and he become Holy Roman Emperor. However, his wife stayed until early 1713 as a token of his claim to the throne. She left shortly before the signature of the Treaty of Utrecht.

Even after the treaties of Utrecht and Rastatt, Catalans kept fighting. That alone should make them count with the Austrian side. Barcelona fell in September 1714, and Majorca didn't surrender until 1715.

Another proof of this is the Nueva Planta Decrees themselves, which identify which kingdoms fought Philip and subjects them to Castilian law.

This document by the British House of Lords, from the article's links, is quite interesting to see the English point of view: the session is an impeachment against the Earl of Oxford for his failure in protecting the Catalans during the Utrecht negotiations, thus betraying the pact that had been established between the British and the Catalans: "in him lay, as a faithful Minister, to have prevented the Conclusion of the Treaty of Peace with Spain, till just and honourable Conditions were secured for the Catalans; but did, falsely, maliciously, and treacherously, advise Her Majesty to conclude a Peace with the King of Spain, without any Security for the ancient and just Rights, Liberties, and Privileges, of that brave, but unhappy, Nation;(...)and the Honour of the British Nation, always renowned for the Love of Liberty, and for giving Protection to the Assertors of it, was most basely prostituted; and a free and generous People, the faithful and useful Allies of this Kingdom, were betrayed, in the most unparalleled Manner, into irrevocable Slavery;"

So courts were gathered, oaths were taken, and Charles III acted as a king in his territories while he could hold on to them. Philip then punished these territories by revoking their laws and institutions and subjecting them to Castile. Some territories kept fighting against Philip even after all the European powers had given up on them. I think that they should at least be counted as combatants. --Jout (talk) 01:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heir under Philip IV's will

The "Background" section currently reads "In 1668 [...] the then-childless Leopold had agreed to the partition of the Spanish territories between the Bourbons and the Hapsburgs, even though Philip IV's will entitled him to the entire inheritance". It is later stated that "Joseph Ferdinand [of Bavaria], moreover, would have been the lawful heir to the Spanish throne under Philip IV's will". Leopold had married Philip IV's daughter Margareta Theresa in 1666, and their first child was born in 1667 (though he died in 1668). By 1692 their sole descendant was Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria. This seems to mean that Philip IV left his dominions (a) to his son Charles (later II), (b) to the descendants of Margareta Theresa, his daughter by his second wife, (c) to his son-in-law Leopold, husband of Margareta Theresa. Is that correct? Some clarity is definitely needed; is there a source for the actual wording of the will? And when exactly in 1668 did Leopold agree to the partition of the territories, which would sign away his children's inheritance - before or after the death of his son? Opera hat (talk) 17:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)