Talk:War in the Vendée

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[edit] Peasants position worsened...

Is there a citation on the recently added claim that the "...peasants perceived that their position had worsened, not improved since the fall of the Ancien Régime"? The way this is written, it must mean worsened economically, not in terms of the issues over religion. I'm leaving it, because it seems likely enough, but a citation would be good. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:07, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This section, added a few hours ago under the heading "Aftermath", by User:Warzybok, strikes me as almost pure POV. I've moved it here for discussion; someone is welcome to rewrite it in a more neutral manner (if that leaves anything) and re-add it to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:59, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Less than 6 months after the Genocide in the Vendee, Robespierre and hundreds of Jacobin Club members were executed in what is called The White Terror. It is a generally accepted fact that the events of the Vendee had tremendous impact on this coup, that would see the Thermidorian Government rise to power. Robespierre had simply caused to much damage to the face of the revolution, and the last victim of his reign of terror would be none other than himself. Vendee is but one factor that led to the fall of the French Revolution, but it was a very critical one. The French people had initially joined the revolution when they saw the king as a threat to their rights, events in the Vendee and elsewhere illustrated that the Jacobins were no longer any better.


It appears to be more historical interpretation, rather than point of view. I personally havent read about a direct link between the Vendee Uprisings and the Thermidorians. I would be inclinded to disagree with it. The Jacobin terror was just as present in Paris and everywhere else as it was in the Vendee. Although the Thermidor Coup is seen a part of the Revolution rather than the fall of the revolution. BadSeed Dec 20 2004

[edit] More POV and uncited remarks

Recent edit: [1]. Is there some citation for this? Among other things, it claims to know people's motives, asks a rhetorical question, and gives no attribution. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yup, it's true. From Davies' Europa. Ksenon 07:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The revolt in Vendea is one of the basis of the folklore of modern royalists in France, and more generally of people who would like to "erase 1789" as a whole. It might so happen that we witness further occasional occurrences of correct facts described in, say, a quite lyrical style. Rama 08:51, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious link

In the external links: Douze colonnes à la une, by Gilles Marchal. (1)Hideously laid out page. (2) I can't quickly work out if it's non-fiction, historical fiction, or what. But my French isn't great, and I'm not inclined to give it a lot of time. Possible linkspam: User seems to have been adding a bunch of links to one site: Contributions. - Jmabel | Talk 04:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


please, don't remove this links, They result from a very serious French site and can bring a new light on these articles concerning of the French events. It is not a question of linkspam. thank you in advance .Adrienne93 08:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know either if the text is a fiction or not. I don't think Gilles Marchal is an historian (he was a singer in the 70 or 80's). The webmaster of his site is called Adrienne G. Adrienne93, Would you please give more details ? --Julien Guyonnet 12:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julien.guyonnet (talk • contribs)

[edit] WP:MilHist Assessment

This article has good length and details, and even has images. But I think it could benefit from some better organization (division into sections with headers) and an infobox. LordAmeth 11:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] causes/dates/levée en masse

on the levée en masse page it says ...a levée en masse was decreed by the National Convention on 23 August 1793...

Whereas this page says When mass conscription was added to the already perceived injustices of the Republic on March 7, 1793, the people struck back spontaneously.

Timeline of the French Revolution says the revolt started in march, and the levée en masse in August. It which case, its passage can not be a cause of the revolt.

Which is it? Could we get a source for the date? and a correction to one page or the other? Gomm 23:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Two books I have state it was 23 August 1793.
  • Taylor, B. The Empire of the French. Spellmount, 2006.
  • Connelly, O. The wars of the French Revolution and Napoleon, 1792-1815. Routledge, 2006.---Bryson 23:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casualty figures

The trouble with the previous version was that if you actually read the 3 references quoted for this they don't seem to mention a figure of 500 000 dead, they do mention the 117 000 but criticise the scholarship behind it. PatGallacher 21:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Not so. The New York Times article baldly says at least 300,000, and the final citation refers to three estimates being 500,000; 250,000 and 117,000. Moreover, the language you have inserted is very POV: "anything approaching serious scholarship"? Are you kidding me? Gabrielthursday 21:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I carefully read the three references. The first and third articles say that even the estimate of 117,000 is a gross fallacy (accusations of plagiarism, doctoring and other shabby scholarship), the 500,000 being considered ridiculous. The NYTimes article doesn't cite any source. If nobody contest this, I'll change the article in two days. Toitoine (talk) 04:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Problem of Objectivity

This article, and the respective entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#France has been subject to slow but steady dispute over Secher's and Chaunu's claims of genocide in the region. This article in the English version of Wikipedia is significantly more generous to Secher's thesis than the French version - which naturally is subject to a much more rigorous programme of editing and moderation.

The conventional authorities on the issue - from Claude Langlois of the Institute of History of the French Revolution at the University of Paris and his many Sorbonne colleagues Petitfrère, Martin, Tallonneau, to non-French authorities on the subject such as Peter McPhee, Julian Jackson, and Hugh Gough - plainly reject the event's characterization of genocide. Indeed, Jean-Clément Martin, who is not only a well-respected specialist on the Revolution, but on the Vendée during the Revolution in particular, and who has published extensively on the issue over more than two decades, estimates that 250,000 Royalists were killed over the course of the Wars, and 200,000 Republicans.

Definitions of genocide are highly contested, but there is little divergence on the very basics. Originally defined by the UN in the wake of the Holocaust as acts "committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group", McPhee gives us Frank Chalk's and Kurt Jonassohn's more encompassing definition of: "A form of one-sided mass killing in which a state or other authority intends to destroy a group, as that group and membership in it are defined by the perpetrator."

Now, unfortunately I can't transfer the entirety of my knowledge of the issue of the war/revolt in the Vendée to readers (and/or moderators). But only the most blinkered, agenda-driven reader could possibly garnish from the records of this part of the Revolution a case of "genocide". If we were to label this regional subset of the civil war fought between Republicans and Royalists as genocide, we would have to label the actions of virtually every participant in bloody wars as perpetrators of this most gruesome of crimes: the Allies for the carpet bombing of Dresden, the Red (and White for that manner) Army in the wake of October 1917... it would be endless. However, as no specific "national, ethnic, racial or religious" group was targeted, and as the killing certainly was not "one-sided", it is an enormous stretch to apply this serious label to the Vendée.

Unfortunately, there are several "academics" in France - all devout Catholics and associated with the Royalist Action Francaise - who have supported Secher. And it is no coincidence, that those involved in eliminating a sense of perspective or objectivity in this article are themselves self-confessed devout Catholics. In such cases, when there is such a clear agenda (pathetic though it is), when no historian has written in support of Secher other than religiously and politically like-minded people, we ought to make it clear in the article that it is a marginal, unconventional view - not supported by the overwhelming majority of authorities on the issue.

To give readers some idea of who Secher is - which is difficult for Anglophones, and which I think is a great part of the problem here, as there are countless French sources online who reveal the extremism and non-scholarly character of Secher and Chaunu - let me point your attention to (1) He regards the First Republic as a proto-Communist totalitarian state comparable to Leninist Russia; (2) He claims the Republicans were racist against the Bretons (he himself is a Breton), patently absurd considering France was and is made up of several such "races"; (3)In 1991 he followed up with "Jews and Vendeans: From One Genocide to Another" comparing the fate of Royalist Vendeans with Jews under the Nazis; (4) started a now defunct journal called "War-Raok", associated with the Far Right "Adsav" Breton nationalist movement; (5) Speaks at Action Francaise functions alongside other ultra-conservatives who are members of La Pen's quasi-Fascist Front National party, such as Bernard Antony, Hugues Petit, Anne Bernet, Francis Bergeron, etc; (6) advocates the construction of statues in honor of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVII; (7) in the comic-strip he publishes, "The History of Brittany", he champions Breton leaders and politicians typically shunned by Bretons for their anti-Semitism and collaboration with the Nazis and Vichy France, such as Célestin Lainé, François Debauvais and Olier Mordrel. (8) Leftist newspapers such as Libération and L'Humanité have accused him of minimizing the Holocaust and playing down the role of ethnic minorities in Breton history and culture. He threatened to sue these publications unless they withdrew this allegations. They didn't, and of course, he didn't.

In short, not a very objective source.

Simply that a book was published about an issue, and subsequently caused controversy, is not sufficient reason to place the opinions contained in that lone publication on a level footing with the dozens, hundreds of opinions found in more respected, less polemical sources. Ledenierhomme 08:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


Your assertion that the French version of this article is inherently less biased and more reliable is not necessarily true. The French nation being a product of the Revolution would likely produce a defensiveness on this subject. Moreover, as with Turkey, any nationality is reluctant to have itself labelled as a perpetrator of genocide. For these reasons, there is a good argument that the French article is less biased and reliable.
As to "the Allies carpet bombing of Dresden, the Red (and White for that manner) Army in the wake of October 1917" and other such matters being comparable, I don't know that any reputable academic has labelled those as genocide. As to your facile dismissal of Chaunu as nonacademic, apparently the Sorbonne thinks more of him than you do, and Donald M. G. Sutherland in The French Revolution and Empire: The Quest for a Civic Order refers to him as "one of the most distinguished and prolific historians of Old Regime Europe", A. N. RYAN in EUROPE AND THE WIDER WORLD (Annual Bulletin of Historical Literature 55 (1), 122–128) refers to him as "prolific and authoritative", and Bruce Lenman in Shrinking World Rather than Expanding Europe? Eighteenth-Century Life - Volume 27, Number 2, Spring 2003, pp. 108-117, refers to him as "a great French historian". Is he conservative, yes? But that appelation is given him less often than are the superlatives which refer to his scholarly excellence.
If you want to talk about bias and ideology look at this characterization of French historiography from Time Magazine: "Twentieth century French historiography has been dominated by a Marxist school that celebrated the French Revolution and its class struggles as the mother of the Bolshevik Revolution."
Your repeated references to the Catholicity of scholars and editors here is at best ad hominem that has no place in an argument on the merits of what is written, and at worst smacks of rank bigotry. Would you discount a Jew's writing on the Holocaust because she is Jewish?
In Genocide in the Age of the Nation-State Mark Levene says that there is a thought process which links the "perpetrators to the latter day refuters of the Vendee as genocide", namely the idea that the French Revolution "is indubitably virtuous and good" and that there is something intrinsically wrong with those today and in the past who doubt its unqualified virtue.
I'm not saying it is a certainty that it was a genocide, but the claims certainly belong in the article. And if you are going to say that a "majority" of scholars deny it, you'd better have a cite. Otherwise its: "You list nine who say no...I can list twelve who say yes." Increasingly, the recently published general treatises on genocide include it. Mamalujo 01:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


You have made several crucial logical oversights, and not less than a few disingenuous claims. I will address them in turn...
"Your assertion that the French version of this article is inherently less biased and more reliable is not necessarily true. The French nation being a product of the Revolution would likely produce a defensiveness on this subject. Moreover, as with Turkey, any nationality is reluctant to have itself labelled as a perpetrator of genocide. For these reasons, there is a good argument that the French article is less biased and reliable."
Surely you are being disingenuous here. The French article has hundreds of contributers, presumably from all positions on the political spectrum, and presumably from many different Francophone countries. This article, so far, has been dominated by Catholic polemicists. How can I make it clearer that the contention of genocide is marginal position other than cite every authority who has published on the issue? And I'm sure the Armenians really appreciate that comparison by the way.....

(Actually many Armenians are painfully aware that the Ittihadists had been inspired by the Nationalist side of the French revolution and the atrocities it carried out against its own people, especially the religious --193.194.63.129 (talk) 10:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC))

"As to "the Allies carpet bombing of Dresden, the Red (and White for that manner) Army in the wake of October 1917" and other such matters being comparable, I don't know that any reputable academic has labelled those as genocide. As to your facile dismissal of Chaunu as nonacademic, apparently the Sorbonne thinks more of him than you do, and Donald M. G. Sutherland in The French Revolution and Empire: The Quest for a Civic Order refers to him as "one of the most distinguished and prolific historians of Old Regime Europe", A. N. RYAN in EUROPE AND THE WIDER WORLD (Annual Bulletin of Historical Literature 55 (1), 122–128) refers to him as "prolific and authoritative", and Bruce Lenman in Shrinking World Rather than Expanding Europe? Eighteenth-Century Life - Volume 27, Number 2, Spring 2003, pp. 108-117, refers to him as "a great French historian". Is he conservative, yes? But that appelation is given him less often than are the superlatives which refer to his scholarly excellence."
There is precisely this ONE authority who supported Secher's thesis - Chaunu - who was, of course, Secher's mentor and sponsor for his dissertation. And, like you, addresses this issue with special interest as a devout Catholic and Royalist sympathizer. Thus it must follow, that the article should make clear that it is a MARGINAL position.
"If you want to talk about bias and ideology look at this characterization of French historiography from Time Magazine: "Twentieth century French historiography has been dominated by a Marxist school that celebrated the French Revolution and its class struggles as the mother of the Bolshevik Revolution.""
Time Magazine? Are you actually joking? So you're calling all these Heads and Professors damned Reds under the Bed?? As far as I am aware, NONE of the esteemed authorities I've cited are Marxists. Jean-Clément Martin may be, I don't know. I can assure you Peter McPhee, who I know personally from University, is far from it! At any rate, MOST OF THEM AREN'T FRENCH! Did that escape your attention? The reason full listing such a vast array of nationalities was to contrast with the "special interest" nature of the Genocide partisans.
"Your repeated references to the Catholicity of scholars and editors here is at best ad hominem that has no place in an argument on the merits of what is written, and at worst smacks of rank bigotry. Would you discount a Jew's writing on the Holocaust because she is Jewish?"
Wait, so falsely accusing these eminent scholars of being "dominated by a Marxist school" is OK, but pointing out that Secher and Co. are devout Catholics and Royalists is ad hominem????
When all else fails, use a Hitler/Nazi analogy..... If a (singular) Ultra-Conservative Jewish academic published a book vastly extending the scope of the Holocaust beyond anything that had been claimed before, say, that in fact 14 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, and was supported by only ONE authority on the Holocaust - the same authority that sponsored the academics PhD in the first place - while all the world's other authorities on the issue, both Jewish and non-Jewish, European and American (and Australasian), rubbished the claims as polemical exaggerations, then yes, of course I would discount it and so ought every level-headed person.
"In Genocide in the Age of the Nation-State Mark Levene says that there is a thought process which links the "perpetrators to the latter day refuters of the Vendee as genocide", namely the idea that the French Revolution "is indubitably virtuous and good" and that there is something intrinsically wrong with those today and in the past who doubt its unqualified virtue.
I'm not saying it is a certainty that it was a genocide (presumably because it doesn't fit the definition!), but the claims certainly belong in the article. And if you are going to say that a "majority" of scholars deny it, you'd better have a cite. Otherwise its: "You list nine who say no...I can list twelve who say yes." Increasingly, the recently published general treatises on genocide include it."
Again, they ARE the majority, those 9. I'm sure I could find dozens more, but the precise reason why those specific people are mentioned is that they ARE the authorities on that period of history, and that issue. You ought to look them up. I don't think you understand how peer review and academia functions. There is ONE authority on modern French history (Chanu) who agrees with Secher. ONE. You will not find a peer reviewed journal that has a respected scholar publishing in support of Secher (save an article by Chanu of course).


Why would anyone want to keep "claims", in an encyclopedia, that are in deference to the overwhelming majority of scholarly opinion, without mentioning that they are, in deference to the overwhelming majority of scholarly opinion???? Really... why? - Ledenierhomme 05:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)




"Dresden Bombings were acts of Genocide. "Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, president of Genocide Watch, wrote: Nazi Holocaust was among the most evil genocides in history. But the Allies' firebombing of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also war crimes and, as Leo Kuper and Eric Markusen have argued, also acts of genocide." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II ("How we can prevent genocide" by Dr. Gregory H. Stanton, president of Genocide Watch and "The History and Sociology of Genocide" by Frank Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn, p. 24.)
Now, I don't agree with this characterization, in fact I think it is ridiculous and devalues the sufferers of genuine genocide (war crimes certainly, not genocide). However, Stanton is probably a more reliable source than Secher. - Ledenierhomme 05:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] traditional definitions of genocide

See: Talk:Genocides in history#traditional definitions of genocide

The changes I have made to the "claims of genocide" section are to integrate three paragraphs into two -- one for and one against. I have altered some of the references which were are English language sources from French into English. I have removed the nationality of the scholars mentioned in the paragraphs as in MHO they are not needed, and the nationality of the scholars were not taken from sources, (To paraphrase Wellington "Just because one works in a stable, it doesn't make one a horse").. I have also removed the Claims of consensus by doing as the advise in that guideline section suggests: "opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources".

Given the information about Gough's statement in Talk: GIH I think "Hugh Gough (a professor at University College Dublin) considers that Secher book is an attempt at historical revisionism but that it is unlikely to have any lasting impact," conveys the same meaning as "Nevertheless, the great majority of authorities on modern French history have have rejected the characterization of genocide", but does so in a way that does not violate WP:SYN and Claims of consensus. Similarly I think breaking out the McPhee analysis and mentioning him by name is a better match to Wikipedia policies and guidelines than the text that was based on his article and was in the article until this edit. Neither change in my opinion is a fundamental change to the wording that was in the article before this edit. (Infact I think my interpretation of McPhee is clumsy and could do with some fettling. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lenin

The last sentence, apart from being badly worded, sheds little light on the controversy, and raises more questions than it answers. Quite possibly if you go through the complete works of Lenin you will find some comment where he compared the Cossacks with the Vendee. However since both events are disputed this creates little clarity. Also, why mention Gracchus Babeuf, although he is regarded as the first communist did he have much to do with the events in Vendee? PatGallacher 10:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The word "The" in the article title

Why is the word "The" in the title of this article? It is a horrible translation from French. It should be simply "Revolt in Vendée" (just like "Revolt in Texas" or "Revolt in Russia"). The use of "the" like this belongs in the dustbin of history with "The Ukraine" and other lousy translations that have fallen out of use (finally, I might add) by poor English translators. I would hope that Wikipedia would do better. - Just an observation. Charvex (talk) 10:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm Julien and I'm coming from the France, from the Vendée... Sounds weird, isn't it ? Because the revolt was actually taking place also outside the Vendée département, the title could be "War in the Vendée area" or "War in the historical Vendée" (translation word by word of a phrase used sometime in France). From my simple reader point of view "War in Vendée" (direct translation of "Guerre de Vendée") is better. Wars could also be plural as the event is also known as "Guerres de Vendée". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julien.guyonnet (talk • contribs) 09:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Disputed" Tag

Hi there. Took a look at the article and added the "Disputed" Tag. There are many affirmations which are completely POV, and the fact that the "genocide" section occupies more than the whole article is... well, most revealing. Additionally, considering the revolt of the Vendée as an episode of religious persecution is the kind of simplification that presents complex episodes like World War II as "the good democrats against evil fascist expansion". The kind of simplification I expect from pamphlets, soapbox rappers and pub conversations, but not from encyclopedias or anyone with any serious academic disposition. Dr Benway (talk) 09:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Your objection seems to be more a matter of POV and undue weight (although I don't think those are valid either). Is there anything that you assert is factually false? If so please state them. Also, I don't think that there is any question that the supression of the Vendee was religious persecution. They had forced upon them juring priest and their nonjuring priests were ejected (same thing China and Vietnam do today). At one point all the churches were ordered closed and their sacramental items stolen by soldiers. They were forbidden to erect crosses on their graves. (Just to mention a few of the items of persecution). Actually, I think this article is deficient in that it fails to state the reasons why the rebellion occured, primarily the religious persecution and secondarily the draft which the Republican officials (the same people who bought up the expropriated church property) exempted themselves from. Mamalujo (talk) 21:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The fact that something is not factually false does not in any way make it necessarily true. You can elaborate many theories on many things that can fall into certain categories, giving sound reasons for these things to do so, but if you are decontextualising and extrapolating modern ideas and morality into historical events which belong to other times you are simply theorising and forwarding original research or simply echoing some minority opinion or theory. Interesting, sometimes stimulating or inspiring, but historically inconsequential and not encyclopedic. Discussing wether the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki amounted to genocide has a place in historical discussion because the historical event in itself, the moral/legal concept under discussion, and the political background are all related in time. The same can be said about the bombing of Dresden and, unfortunately, hundreds of other instances in the past century. Discussing whether Jesus Christ was the first communist, or whether the Isaraeli conquest of Canaan, the Crusades, or the French revolutionary terror are instances of genocide is, again, stimulating, polemic and fun to argue, but historiographically speaking amounts to nothing more than tendentious splattering of modern politics on past events.
As to the revolt of the Vendee as an episode of religious prosecution, of course I agree with you. I only say that considering the causes of the revolt as solely or principally based on religious issues is oversimplifying something which is far more complex. Religious persecution occured, certainly. But it was not the sole reason, and shares importance with a number of other factors which are equally as important.
And btw, Happy Winter Solstice and the best for 2008, good sir ;) Dr Benway (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change of title

why does the English-language version of this article have the term "Revolt"?

It is known in French as the Guerre de Vendée. Guerre = War. A "guerre civile", civil war.

"Revolt" implies something rather different.

Ledenierhomme (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Title has been changed. "Revolt in the Vendée" redirects to this article. - Ledenierhomme (talk) 15:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts

Several editors are reverting the edits I have been in contravention of Wikipedia:Consensus.

In the relevant section of the Genocides In History article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#France), this "issue" was debated over for several weeks, at length, with many editors involvement. The resulting section is still FAR from perfect, (placing the sophistry of polemicists - in most cases self-published in all but name - on an equal footing with established authorities who are specialists/experts on the subjects and have been published in peer-reviewed journals) but it is far and away more objective and dispassionate than the argumentative, unbalanced, diatribe that some editors have allowed this article to become. This includes at least two editors who were involved in the discussion on the Genocides In History talk page who are trying to get their skewed political/national/religious/ethnic POINTs enshrined in this article, because it has drawn much less attention. Ledenierhomme (talk) 15:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

If you wish to delete materials with no citations then fine, but you are removing large swaths of credible materials with citations. For excample, you removed all the materials pertaining to the numerous atrocities committed by the revolutionaries, such as the "national baths," with citations from credible historians like Simon Schama. This is unacceptable IMO. I will restore such materials.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
"credible historians like Simon Schama" - he may well be a credible historian, as Stephen Hawking is a credible astrophysicist, but neither are authorities on the Vendee conflict like the sources I am replacing him with. This article is entitled "War in the Vendée", not "List of atrocities committed by Republican/Government forces during the War in the Vendée". Do you wish me to add the atrocities that were committed by Royalists? Wouldn't that be rather tedious? Wouldn't it be better to arrive at some sort of compromise - no matter how incomplete and unsatisfactory - between the authors of the Genocide polemic and the authors of the mainstream/conventional analysis? Believe it or not, that's what I and many editors spent a great deal of time doing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#France - only for someone (you?) to turn this article into a religion-infused wild-eyed diatribe. I am reporting your reverts as vandalism. Ledenierhomme (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Go ahead and try it, pal. I like the way you accuse others here of having some kind of nefarious agenda, when you clearly have one yourself.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
"nefarious agenda"? I beg your pardon? I merely spend my time trying to prevent Wikipedia articles being overrun by special interest nationalist, sectarian, and supremacist soapboxers. If you want to preach about "anti-Catholicism" or "anti-Royalism", do it somewhere else, Wikipedia is not the place. Ledenierhomme (talk) 16:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi guys! I'm not historian, just a 27 years old production engineer. I'm French and Vendéen. I'm using Wikipedia because the data is usually clear & well organized. My point of view on the debate you have : "Keep it simple".
Three paragraphs.
The first one to explain that there's a debate, in France and overseas, within the historian community but not only. In fact, some people used the guerres de Vendée to generate other things, often more 'actuals', (ie : politic arguments, money (tourism for example is important in the local economy, see historical Parc du Puy du Fou [2] or La Chabotterie[3], ...)).
Second paragraph : Description of the argument for the genocide thesis. (Number of dead. General Somebody wrote to Paris government : "I killed a lot of Vendéeans, including wifes and children, ...).)
Third paragraph : Arguments against the thesis. (Governement unstable. Killing each others was the national sport in France at the time. It was a civil war as Mister VeryKnown explain in his book.)
Sadly my experience, knowledge and my english doesn't allow me to create a good quality job on this topic but i'll be happy to help if i can.
I thank you anyway. I appreciate the job you contributors are doing... specially when it allows the world to learn about 'my' Vendée. :) --Julien Guyonnet 10:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dieu Le Roi

The translation of the text Dieu Le Roi

God (is) the king

strikes me.
The Vendéens were fighting "Pour Dieu et pour le Roi" ("for God and for the king"). "Dieu ! Le Roi !" ("God ! King!") was also certainly a very popular slogan at that time. "(is)" has no added value and is not necessary as it could lead to a mistake/misunderstanding.
--Julien Guyonnet 12:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Time for France and other Western Powers to Grow Up

That an event as clear as this can be made "disputed" by radical secularist republicans is beyond comprehension. In the name of supposed "perspective" the truth is sacrificed in favor of their need for liberating myth. France and the UK need to confront their nasty history, with their own people and apologize. --Jackkalpakian (talk) 07:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? Ledenierhomme (talk) 17:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Let us see: Algeria, Bengal, Indochina, Equatorial Africa, the Dervish Wars, and the clearest example Ireland. These states began by butchering their own people and then exported the concept -- it is time for the UK and France to own up to the tide of destruction their state-building brought. Does that answer your question??? --Jackkalpakian (talk) 12:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)