Talk:Wandu Mountain City

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To Cydevil38, your disruptive editing in Wandu Mountain City is reported by me at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Cydevil38.27s_disruptive_editing_in_Wandu_Mountain_City. In addition to changing the contents to your original research (which is via blanking, i.e., removing proper contents such as "Wandu Mountain City and Guonei city were co-capitals". For example, Wandu Mountain City, along with Guonei City, served as the second capital of Goguryeo was deleted by Cydevil38. Otherwise, according to your writeup, this city is the 2nd capital of Goguryeo, but look at Guonei City, it is also the 2nd capital. What are you writing there?). In the history,

• Wandu Mountain City was built as a mountain fortress (尉那巖城, Weina Rock City) to protect the Guonei City at the year 3.
• It was named as Wandu (丸都) and rebuilt at the year 198 for the purpose of being a new capital (because the capital Guonei City was destroyed by the Gongsun Clan at that time. 丸都 means "丸 capital" in Chinese).
• At the year 209, the rebuilding of the Wandu Mountain City was finished and the capital was switched from Guonei City to here, but typically they are treated as co-capitals, thus they are both 2nd capital of Goguryeo.
• In present-day China, the historical remain is normally translated into English as "City site at Wandushan", which means it is a historical site, not a city of residence anymore. Here is the picture--nobody lives there. There is no such thing Hwando is a historical name and Wandu is the present-day name. Hwando and Wandu are merely different romanizations of the same entity, whether you classify this entity as historical or present-day. --Jiejunkong 02:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Koreans still call that place Hwando, because it is their way of romanization. The Chinese romanize it as Wandu, for the same reason. The reason the location itself is called Wandu is because it is located in China. But we are referring to Hwando, back when it wasn't Chinese territory. get it? What you are going about and saying is pretty much asking for every historical entity including Goguryeo to be Romanized in Pinyin. Now that is just simply ridiculous. Odst 20:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If you look at all my messages carefully, I have supported "Wandu/Hwando", not "Wandu" only, not "Hwando" only, from the very beginning. It would be useful for people like you and me to know that "Wandu" and "Hwando" are the same thing with no language gap.--Jiejunkong 09:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yuje was right. everything he said was right. :P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Odst (talk • contribs) 20:35, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

To the Smart High School Student, User:Yuje speaks Cantonese, while I don't know Cantonese at all (The distance between my place and Yuje's place is longer than what you expected). Nevertheless, I noticed that we do have similar taste.--Jiejunkong 08:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see as how this debate is relevant whent my final edit says the following: It is based on the ruins of Hwando Fortress that served as the second capital of Goguryeo (Chinese: 高句麗；Pinyin: Gaogouli) along with Guknae Seong(Pinyin: Guoneicheng).^{[citation needed]}

_{The above unsigned paragraph was written at 00:07, 24 August 2007 by Cydevil38}

According to wikirecord which doesn't lie, what you said was quite different. You actually completely deleted "Guonei City" in the article page and added back in the talk page here to make false claims.--Jiejunkong 08:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wandu Mountain City, in the present tense, is a ruin of the ancient Wandu Mountain City. See the present-day picture, nobody lives in the ruin today. It was initially built as Weina Rock City in 3 AD, thus Wandu Mountain City turns out to be a natural name. I don't know how you can claim that "Hwando fortress" is the ancient name, and "Wandu Mountain City" (or even "Wandu fortress") is not. Indeed, Chinese has never changed the name of the place. 丸都 (Wandu, Hwando) is both the ancient name and the present name.--Jiejunkong 08:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Original history records 1.1 More original history records 2 Unethical Behavior 3 POV Fork 4 Requested move 4.1 Survey 4.2 Discussion 4.2.1 Google results (manual count0 4.2.2 Reliable English Publications

[edit] Original history records

Seoul National University's Kyujanggak Archives(奎章阁) has the PDF copy of all Samguk Sagi(三國史記), the canonical history record made by Goryeo to record historical events in Goguryeo, Baekje and Silla.

• In Volume 13(page 18) of Samguk Sagi, it is said "(瑠璃王)二十二年冬十月，王遷都於國內，築尉那巖城"(English translation: On October of the 22nd year (of Yuri of Goguryeo), the Yuri King moved the capital to Guonei, and built the Weina Rock City). A temporal fact is that the 1st year of Yuri of Goguryeo is 19 BC, so the 22nd year is 3 AD. A geographic fact is that Guonei City was a city on Yalu River's plain, while Weina Rock City(尉那巖城) was the city in the mountain which was later renamed to Wandu(丸都) by Sansang of Goguryeo.
• In Volume 16(page 21] of Samguk Sagi，it is said "(山上王)二年二月築丸都城"(English translation: On February of the 2nd year (of Sansang of Goguryeo), Wandu City was built). In page 23 of the same volume, it is said "(山上王十三年)十月，王移都于丸都"(English translation: On October (of the 13th year of Sansang of Goguryeo), the Sansang King moved the capital to Wandu). Note that the 1st year of Sansang of Goguryeo is 197 A.D.--Jiejunkong 04:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I know those entries in Samguksagi. And I find it interesting that you would use Korean and Chinese romanizations selectively when the entire source is Korean. Anyways, according to Encyclopedia Britannica Korean edition, the relationship between the two entities is controversial, but the theory that both refer to present-day Ji'an area is dominant. It is sometimes seen that Ji'an was Guknae seong and Shanchengzi fortress(the Chinese name of the remaining fortress) was Hwando seong. As for Winaam seong(which Jiejunkong refers to as Weina Rock City), this name is even more controversial because it can be seen as the equivalent of Guknae seong. Cydevil38 00:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Your comments make me look like a CPOV user who supports "Wandu" only. I feel obliged to repeat my standing: As in Goguryeo, I have supported "Wandu/Hwando", not "Wandu" only, not "Hwando" only, from the very beginning. It would be useful for people like you and me to know that "Wandu" and "Hwando" are the same thing with no language gap. In fact, Wandu and Hwando are only two romanization forms of the same thing. Guonei and Guknae also fall into the same case. Seong and Cheng follow the case as well.--Jiejunkong 09:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As to Ji'an, Jilin, its city area covers neither Wandu Mountain City nor Guonei City. The two ancient co-capitals happen to be included in the city's surburban area. Ji'an was founded in the Qing Dynasty. The Ji'an city itself has nothing to do with Goguryeo sites, or Xuantu sites, or whatever city sites a thousand years ago. I have seen nobody confused Ji'an, Jilin with Wandu Mountain City or Guonei City. You are the first one in this case.--Jiejunkong 09:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also it is annoying for a Korean national to conclude that "Shanchengzi fortress(the Chinese name of the remaining fortress)". Who told you this? In the official govenment site of Jilin, the official name is 丸都山城 (Wandu Mountain City), while the local residents casually call the ruin "Shanchengzi". Do you know what "Shanchengzi" means in Chinese? How can it be "the Chinese name"? Would you please don't make up things like this?--Jiejunkong 09:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I've been to Ji'an, Jilin myself, and closely observed the mentioned sites above. The Ji'an city sits right on top of what used to be Guknae Seong, and the supposed remains of Hwando Seong is just a few minutes drive from the city. And besides, this isn't my personal opinion. As for where I got this information, I already told you - Britannica(Korean edition) and Doosan Encyclopedia. I know Ji'an city itself has little if any historic relation at all to Goguryeo, but the city is the present geographic location of many historic Goguryeo entities such as Guknae and Hwando.

_{(The above unsigned paragraph was written at 13:02, 24 August 2007 by User:Cydevil38)}

The ruin of Guonei City can be seen online. It locates in the close suburban area of Ji'an, Jilin, not in the Ji'an city zone (集安市区). As a user who know you well, I don't trust your words like "The Ji'an city sits right on top of what used to be Guknae Seong" (what do you mean by "right on top of"? how right is "right" here?). The ruins of Guonei City are on the Tonggou Plain(通沟平原). To get to Wandu Mountain City from Guonei City, you should go straight north along the Tonggou River(通沟河). But Wandu Mountain City is 2.5km west to the Ji'an city zone (集安市区). Therefore, your statement is controversial (if not contradictory). 2.5km is not too far for a modern automobile drive, but around the time of year 200, Goguryeo did have enough manpower to fill in the gap between the two cities by local residents. Even now there is no enough manpower to enlarge Ji'an to fill the gap. Thus it is highly unlikely Guonei City can be confused with Wandu Mountain City, or can be confused with Ji'an (unless you intentionally do so).--Jiejunkong 20:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"The entire source is Korean"? Ok, Samguk Sagi is written in the classical Chinese language (文言文), since when can you claim that the classical Chinese language is Korean? The Chinese language skill demonstrated in Samguk Sagi is at the native speaker level. The author 金富軾 spoke Chinese and wrote in Chinese. And I have stated the following history fact checking several times---your claim that historical entities before the 10th century are "Korean" is spurious. At that time there was no such thing called "Korean" (which is from the after-10th century Goryeo). All you can say is that the prior-7th century Goguryeo people were ancesters of (or proto-) some modern Korean, while another comparable portion of them were ancestors of some Manchu Chinese and Xibe Chinese. I just don't understand why it is so hard to accept what the canonical history records said?--Jiejunkong 09:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we went through this already. For all I care, there are plenty of reliable English publications that confirm the widely held consensus that Goguryeo was a "Korean" entity. Your personal opinion on this matter is not going to change that. If you have a problem with it, get a Ph.D in history and engage in professional research. Cydevil38 13:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and another thing, there was such a thing called "Korean" back in those days. "Korea" is the English word for "Goryeo", which is one of the common names that Goguryeo used to refer to itself. Cydevil38 13:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

There was no Goryeo before and at the 9th century. At the 10th century, after Balhae (which inherited a significant portion of land and population of Goguryeo) was conquered by Khitan, about 1/5 Balhae people fled to Goryeo, and the other 4/5 stayed. Those who stayed became ancestors of Manchu Chinese, Xibe Chinese, Daur Chinese and Han Chinese. Your Goryeo argument is essentially flawed because you use a 10th-century entity to cope with a 7th-century entity and a 9th-century entity without considering historical facts.--Jiejunkong 20:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, "Wandu Mountain City" is an entry for the UNESCO World Heritage Site, not the historic fortress itself. I'll create a proper article for the historic fortress, and revert this article to one that describes the UNESCO World Heritage Site. Cydevil38 00:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is created for the historic fortress, under the name "Wandu Mountain City", which is also now a UNESCO World Heritage Site under the same name "Wandu Mountain City". Don't try to push your POV by treating the two as different things. Even if they are different(which is obviously not), you are action by making a POV fork is unacceptable. Let me repeat, the article is originally created for the historic fortress, under the name "Wandu Mountain City". It as a UNESCO World Heritage Site is a side information.Wiki Pokemon 17:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the message. But the article already stated that the remain of Wandu Mountain City is the UNESCO World Heritage Site. I don't see any problem with the contents.--Jiejunkong 09:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More original history records

Volume 30 of Records of Three Kingdoms states:"建安中，公孫康出軍擊之，破其國，焚燒邑落。"_{English translation:During Jian'an period, Gongsun Kang attacked Goguryeo, conquered its capital, burned its villages.}

Note that, in the classical Chinese, the Chinese character "國" typically means "capital". This is unlike the same character in the modern Chinese where "國" typically means "country". For example, 國人暴動 means the rebellion of the people in the capital city of the Zhou Dynasty, not of the people of the entire country of the Zhou Dynasty.

Volume 38 of History of the Liao Dynasty (i.e., the Khitan Empire) states:"正州。本沸流王故地，國爲公孫康所並。_{English translation:Zhengzhou was originally the land of King Biryu. Its capital was conquered by Gongsun Kang.} —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiejunkong (talk • contribs) 06:41, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unethical Behavior

I have taken the time to review the edit history. I have found the following unacceptable actions by Cydevil.

• 7-3-07 Ksyrie create the article with the theme of the historic fortress under the name "Wandu Mountain City". It mentioned "Wandu Mountain City" as a capital of Koguryo. There is no mention of it as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 8-12-07 Cydevil made some edit to the article. But he did not change the theme of the article about the historic fortress. There is no mention of it as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 8-23-07 Cydevil made a very major edit. He as changed that theme of the article from the historic fortress to UNESCO World Heritage Site. Such major edit amounted to a proportion similar to an article move.
• From then on, Cydevil declared that the article is about a UNESCO World Heritage Site, not the historic fortress.
• After stripping this article of its original main theme, by giving some original research justification, and then replacing it with another theme. This prepared Cydevil to create a seemingly justifiable POV fork of this article.

Cydevil knows very well the rule of POV forking. He has in fact invoke that same rule to have articles deleted. Now he uses a scheme to justify his violation of that rule. I have make the same POV forking mistake without knowing it. But I have to courage to admit it. Cydevil knows about the rule and choose to break it, and keeps denying it. The facts are all here for us to see. Cydevil action is simply bold, unilateral, scheming and totally unethical. I don't know whether there is some avenue in Wikipedia to censure these kind of behavior by Cydevil. If there is, he should be subjected to it, no doubt.Wiki Pokemon 18:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for writing down what I have known. My comment is that Cydevil38's writings are not a trustworthy source which meets the standard defined in Wikipedia:Reliable Sources.--Jiejunkong 21:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV Fork

I see Cydevil38 has created a POV fork of this article at Hwando. Cydevil38 please delete it.Wiki Pokemon 02:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I see in your point of view, if it's not CPOV, then it's KPOV. You just have to have it your way, don't you? Please show respect to people that actually do things correctly, like Cydevil. Odst 03:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, just like you I guess. Anyway I thought Cydevil38 knows about POV fork rules very well to make that kind of error himself.Wiki Pokemon 03:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussions are available at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hwando_(fortress).--Jiejunkong 04:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. --Stemonitis 07:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)