Talk:Wandering Jew

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[edit] Another Instance..

Another instance of the Wandering Jew in literature is the short story 'The Wandering Jew' (Samayoeru yudayajin) by the Japanese writer Akutagawa Ryunosuke (1892 - 1927), first published in the magazine Shincho in 1917. Akutagawa took most of the material he used in the story from 'Curious Myths of the Middle Ages' (1906) by Sabine Baring-Gould (1834 - 1924 - now best remembered as author of the hymn Onward Christian Soldiers). Akutagawa mentions also a story called 'The Wandering Jew' written by the Scottish author William Sharp (1855 - 1905) under the pen-name 'Fiona Mcleod'. Sharp certainly wrote a long poem in about 1881 called 'The Wandering Jew'. Whether this is what Akutagawa had in mind I don't know. It was not known until after his death that Sharp, who published a number of biographies, romances and volumes of poetry under his own name, was also the author of the mystical writings of 'Fiona Mcleod'. A curious novel called 'My First Two Thousand Years: the Autobiography of the Wandering Jew', by George Sylvester Viereck the Elder and Paul Eldridge, was published in London in 1929. (Whether this was the first publication or not I don't know.) In the novel, the Wandering Jew is referred to as 'Isaac aforetime', which looks as though it is a rendering of the name sometimes given to him in Belgium: Isaac Laquedem. 'Laquedem', although Hebrew, is not a name. It means 'to the east' or 'to ancient times'


See also Talk:Wandering_Jew_(plant)


[edit] The wandering Jew as Cain..

I was under the impression that The Wandering Jew was Cain, and actually came here to find out a bit more about the connection. There's certainly something there, and it surely ought to be mentioned even if there are other legends about shoemakers flaoting around. I think the gist of it is that Cain wanted to die, so God said no, and sent him off to walk the earth as a punishment for his despair. He even plants the sign on his forehead which crops up in a lot of later Wandering Jew stories.

Literary sources: - The Bible - Coleridge's The Wanderings of Cain - Lewis's The Monk

==Omission==, The article omit to cite the Jean_d'Ormesson (or fr:Jean_d'Ormesson) "Histoire du juif errant" book. --Chmouel Boudjnah 14:43, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done.. --Edcolins 20:32, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] [No Longer] A Sermonette

"A more general view claims instead that he personifies any individual who has been made to see the error of his wickedness; he wanders not so much in punishment, but from a starving spiritual need for redeeming experience, to replace the soul (see self) that was once so misguided that it eventually was shattered. The teasing of Jesus' suffering, simply put, represents the callousness of mankind toward the suffering of human beings. According to the Christian view, because Jesus upon death was rejoined with the Holy Spirt, "Christ" now refers to the Holy Spirit within all of Gods creation, so that the suffering of all people should remind us of the suffering of Jesus; and that the revelatory "experience" of the "presence of Christ" will condemn the wicked "to wander" (seeking salvation).
"In Christian theology, to be "released from sin," is (salvation), and "Jesus" became "Christ," who personifies that salvation. Though the "wandering Jew" is often viewed as a damned figure, the so-called "curse" of Jesus is better thought of as a blessing; not particular to Jews, (unless using the term "Jew" in its most universal sense) for "all who sin" as being forced to wander in search of salvation.

Can anyone make something encyclopedic from this "What the "Wandering Jew" has meant to me" sermon? Wetman 20:39, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The present version of the article appears to have made the changes. There is still a small amount of the first paragraph present but it no longer reads like the sermon it once was. I'll leave a comment on your user page later to this effect. It could be helpful to have you re-read the current version and give comment. Lisapollison 16:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the article has been completely refreshed, to give a report of the history of the idea, the where and when of statements being such a large part of comprehending them. I shall make a Notes section and drop some of the present asides into notes. I feel the article will be better when it has its sources given in the text. --Wetman 18:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wandering Jew in Literature

Shouldn't this article also discuss the Wandering Jew in literature -- everything from Melmoth the Wanderer to A Canticle for Leibowitz? [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 11:22, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It did. A vandal passed by. I passed by. It does. JRM 11:42, 2004 Nov 10 (UTC)
I've gotten too use to the erratic quality of the wikipedia, with some important topics still being little more than stubs. I hadn't thought to check for vandalism. Thanks for the cleanup. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 11:58, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Should someone add a mention to "Viver!", from Machado de Assis? I could not find information in English about it.

Done. Luis Dantas 07:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source?

Is this site affiliated with Wikipedia?


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=33&letter=W


It looks like the article was originally published in print form...


Clouseau 15:27, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The article was originally copied from there to here. That version of the Jewish Encyclopedia is no longer covered by copyright, and a number of Wikipedia articles on Jewish topics have been started using the articles in that encyclopedia. Jayjg (talk) 17:19, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More Examples in Literature

Some possible additions to the list:

  • Judge Holden is an archetypal Wandering Jew who figures prominently in Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian (1985), arguably as the central character.
  • Carwin the Biloquist in Charles Brockden Brown's Wieland (1799) is a non-supernatural Wandering Jew who figures prominently in the plot and brings about everyone else's doom through trickery and ventriloquism.

Arak also met the wandering Jew. An issue of the Spectre established that the Phantom Stranger was active in 1200's BCE Egypt, so his being the Wandering Jew is a bit slim.

Another example from Wagner: Kundry in Parsifal (1882) is a clear parallel. See the section in Act II beginning "Kenntest du die Fluch....". That character is redeemed by Parsifal (a Christ figure) on Good Friday, complete with Christian baptism in Act III. ("Die Taufe nimm/und glaub' an den Erlöser!") [1]

Thomas Carlyle's Diogenes Teufelsdröckh in Sartor Resartus is often identified with the Wandering Jew in the course of the novel by its "editor" (the narrator).

[edit] Various mysteries in Wandering Jew article

(Copy of discussion in Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities)

In the section on 'The Wandering Jew in Literature' I have been trying to do some disambiguation but I simply can't find a number of the writers named despite my best Googling efforts.

Does anyone know who Koehler, Franzhorn, Oeklers, Klineman and Heller are in this context? --Spondoolicks 18:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest on a slender thread of conjecture the poet Sandra Kohler for the first name, profiled here. But I don't know that she ever wrote about the Wandering Jew. The rest are a mystery to me. Jwrosenzweig 23:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Update This section came from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. I checked out the online version here and tried looking up all the names. Heller is Seligmann Heller but the rest only appear in this one article. Unless of course they're normally written in a different way. --Spondoolicks 13:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Lupo 15:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

    • Update: "Koehler" is probably Ludwig Köhler, minimal bio data. Lupo 09:06, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Well done for finding these - I think it may have been the copy-editor's day off when that article was written in 1906! I have updated the Wandering Jew article (including Ludwig Köhler although you are not 100% sure) and translated that German article on Klingemann. It's still a bit of a hodge-podge at the moment though and should probably be re-written - perhaps with the more obscure works not being highlighted quite so much. --Spondoolicks 11:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mormon Folklore = Book of Mormon

Someone's going to squawk at the implication that the "Book of Mormon" is folklore and not scripture. Won't be me, though. -- Richfife 19:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neon Genesis Evangelion / Keel Lorenz

I notice that references to Neon Genesis Evangelion have been added and removed about 4-5 times now. Looks like thrash to me. Maybe we should get some discussion going about it. I take it as a given that NGE is notable by itself (it's a very famous series world wide and I've seen posters for it many times). Does someone who knows more about NGE want to start things out by explaining the significance of the Keel Lorenz character in the whole Neon Genesis Evangelion universe and link that to the Wandering Jew legend in general? -- Richfife 22:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Its not that strong a connection, the speculation is made on the official DVD, but the only real(afaic) connections are that 1) the character is really old 2) He strongly dislikes God 3) he knows a lot of ancient languages. There may be better reasons for making the connection that I don't know about. My reversion was mainly due to the previous edit summary which listed him as non-notable which is false. JoshuaZ 22:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Keel Lorenz is not the wandering jew, you idiot. His picture is visibly younger in newspaper clippings from 20 years prior. An immortal doesn't age in 20 years. I've had enough of this theory because it, a) recycles an apocryphal legend, and b) degrades anno and eva. Let it rest. Thank you.--70.231.161.98 03:42, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
While you may be right, there's no possible need to be so jackassish about it. RPH 03:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Er, do you have an episode that shows his face in a newspaper? I don't remember that. JoshuaZ 04:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-21/21_C107_b_big.jpg taken from episode 21. --Mark 2000 21:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Influences on Pop Culture" section, maybe?

It seems like high / low art culture war is starting erupt here. I'm pretty reliably on the inclusionist side of things, myself. The constant pulling of "unworthy" links is getting on my nerves. -- Richfife 22:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I have periodically removed references like the Neon Genesis one because I didn't think they were particularly relevant to the article. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. I tended to remove references that (I thought) were not really about the subject of the article, or works that don't focus primarily or significantly on the Wandering Jew, or works that are themselves non-notable. I removed the NGE one not because the series isn't notable, but because the character isn't specifically identified as the Wandering Jew, the connection is only speculated about in DVD commentary. The list is getting way too long and doesn't really serve the article; we don't need a new section devoted to every "pop culture" (or any other) reference passing editors can think of.--Cúchullain t/c 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

--Cúchullain t/c 23:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

"The constant pulling of "unworthy" links is getting on my nerves." Then you have no business editing an encyclopedia. Sorry, but this is not a list of trivia, not some blog site, not a fanlisting, it's supposed to be an ENCYCLOPEDIA. See WP:ENC for more information and a reality check. DreamGuy 02:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Per my most recent comment just below that you missed, I already abandoned the position. -- Richfife 03:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm starting to see your point. Every immortal or long lived character anywhere eventually winds up on this page. Time for a separate page for "Immortal characters"? I can't imagine EVERY character that acts as a witness across the millenia is inspired by the Wandering Jew -- Richfife 03:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hallelujah! I'm a convert!

As of now, I'm going to remove any entry of the form "<Character X> of <literary work Y> is rumored by fans to be the Wandering Jew". I'm sure there are hundreds of them. - Richfife 16:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "100 Years of Solitude" reference

I'm going to remove it, but I'm not so sure of myself that I'm not going to put a copy here:

In Gabriel García Márquez's magical realist novel One Hundred Years of Solitude, the Wandering Jew is a strange mule-like creature that spoils crops.

There's little doubt that this is one of the most notable novels, well, ever. I haven't read it, but my research indicates that the creature in question is a sort of half mule, half woman (I guess that makes it 1/4 horse, 1/4 donkey and 1/2 woman?) that despoils crops by its presence. One character conjectures that it's the Wandering Jew, which seems a bit of a stretch based on all of the other legends. So we arrive at:

Pluses:

  1. Very major literary work.
  2. Wandering Jew is mentioned by name.
  3. Character in the novel is described as TWJ by another character in the novel.

Minuses:

  1. Passage is very short (only 3 pages).
  2. The creature in question seems much more like the Chupacabra than TWJ.
  3. The author himself doesn't seem to think of the creature as TWJ.

Thoughts? - Richfife 17:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It's probably worth keeping. Do you know the page numbers? Brutannica 00:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More details!

The big problem with this whole page is not enough detail. We get that the Wandering Jew is a pervasive feature in Western literature. But what does he do? What role does he play in the stories? Is he penitent, or defiant? Does he interact with characters? Does he have any identifying characteristics besides great age? The character isn't characterized at all in this article. Brutannica 00:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

My take on this (arrived at over the last couple of months) is that the Wandering Jew ISN'T as pervasive a presence in western literature as people seem to think. The idea of an immortal (or very long lived) character that lives among normal people and interacts with "the man on the street" is an effective way for an author to add heft to a story and link it up to the full canon of western literature. So streetwise immortal characters keep popping up. To my mind, the Wandering Jew is merely an example of this (I'd be amazed if he's the first). For some reason people often take the next step and declare any immortal character to actually BE the Wandering Jew. If the Flying Dutchman wasn't stuck on his boat, maybe he'd be used instead. Since authors and readers have so often declared any immortal character the Wandering Jew (He's a plutocrat! He's a homeless guy! He flies spaceships! He's a woman! He's an alien! He's a goat!), the legend has become diluted to the point that the only constant feature is his or her immortality. - Richfife 17:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but in works where the Wandering Jew is unambiguously featured, what does he do? Or does he have no trademark personality? If this is the case, then the article should state it.
At the least, is he good or evil? If this developed in the Middle Ages and he jeered at Jesus during his torments, then I would expect the Jew to be unrepentant, malicious, and maybe offensive to Christians. Or has he repented, maybe converted, etc.? Brutannica 07:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


There are a series of novels about a roman soldier simlarly cursed with immortality by Jesus. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casca_Longinus

[edit] Casca: the Eternal Mercenary

How about adding this to the lit section?

Barry Sadler's Casca: the Eternal Mercenary series of novels features Casca Rufio Longinius, cursed by Jesus for spearing him to soldier until they meet again. This seems to be an intentional blending of the legends of Longinus and the Wandering Jew.

(That's straight from the Longinus wiki, BTW.) Osakadave 08:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take a stand and declare myself neutral. That's just the kind of guy I am. - Richfife 23:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian legend or Jewish Legend?

I noticed someone put the "jew" template into the article. I've always considered TWJ more of a christian thing than a jewish thing (despite the name). What do you think? - Richfife 23:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The "jew" template just indicates material was taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia, it doesn't imply this is a Jewish legend.--Cúchullain t/c 23:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overburdened with Evil by Strugackie

I just added this reference. The novel is not about the Wandering Jew in and of itself, but one of the main characters is named "Agasfer", the origins of this name are explained, and the likeliness is used, albeit in a somewhat subtle way. If this level of reference is below that deserving a mention, feel free to remove this reference, although ideally not before at least getting a cursory look at the novel itself.

[edit] J.G. Ballard's The Lost Leonardo

How is this "unrelated"? Ahasuerus is featured in the story. Sdicht 01:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Perhaps a better term would be "Too many steps removed". Practically all authors reference TWJ if they stick around long enough. - Richfife 14:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying just because the guy is a contemporary writer? So what is the point of this section, anyway? Sdicht 14:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

  • I need to cut the section way back. And more hours in the day. Stand by. - Richfife 15:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional references - perhaps they should be broken out into their own article?

I would suggest that we split the fictional references off into a separate article called The Wandering Jew motif in fiction. Then we can pick just a few of the most notable ones to leave in this article and and add a link to the longer article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lisapollison (talk • contribs) 05:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Clearly this section now needs to be split off on its own. Does anyone care to suggest which references should also stay in this article?LiPollis 02:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Again, given the mention below of the comic book, I humbly suggest that we break out the fictional references into their own article named The Wandering Jew Motif in Literature. Anyone for it? We can leave a couple of the best examples with a note to see the larger article.LiPollis (talk) 12:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wandering Jew plant

Isn't there a plant named the wandering jew? 72.92.20.134 20:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

There is, it can be found on the disambiguation page linked at the top of the article.Cúchullain t/c 05:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] another science fiction case

Another science fiction book that mentions the legend is Poul Anderson's BOAT OF A THOUSAND YEARS, about a mutation that renders various people in history immortal. When one, Hanno the Phoenician, tells his story to Cardinal Richelieu, the Cardinal asks "Are you the Wandering Jew?". Hanno admits that he might have inspired the legend but denies the story of meeting Jesus. CharlesTheBold 04:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poor Organization of Article.

This article is badly in need of a cleanup and reorganization. It begins with the origin of the legend not its content, as if any reader already would know what it was. I am not a literary scholar, and I had no idea. It took till about half way through before I figured out that it was about a person condemned to eternal life for (it seems) doing something rude to Jesus on his way to be crucified. The article needs to start with the content of the legend including one or two major variants. Then it can get into the origin and history and then go on to its uses in various other works, any relations it might have with other legends, differing interpretations, and controversies surrounding it... something like that order. Come on you literary scholars, represent! mnewmanqc (talk) 01:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

There used to be a perfectly good intro, but the article has seen a lot of editing over the past day or so. I've restored it to the last stable version, but I'm afraid some good edits were probably lost. The talk page is the place to discuss such major changes to the article.--Cúchullain t/c 05:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
now reorganised by me following discussion with Cúchullain to deal with these problems. --Smerus (talk) 20:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I was mistaken about the recent edits; it seems that the removal of the intro was a simple accident, and no new unsourced material was added. My apologies, and good work, Smerus!--Cúchullain t/c 20:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poor Bible Usage

In this day and age the usage of the Old King James version of the bible makes little sense. The Old English is unneccesarily hard to understand, and the version contains notable transcription errors. While the New King James Version rectifies these faults, I believe that the Revised Standard Version (RSV) of the Holy Bible should be used, as it is reputed to be the most accurate translation.

The KJV, which ever version you look at, is never Old English. It is modern English, perhaps Shakespearean at its most antiquated moments. It is our current language, not Chaucer's (Middle English), not Beowulf's (Old English). Moreover, and more importantly, it is crucial to look at the KJV in order to understand the evolution of the Wandering Jew legend in the English tradition because after the publication of the KJV, it is what all English language writers use as a source. That is, until recently. Translation mistakes do not really matter; only those who based their writings directly on the Hebrew and the Greek, etc., could be an exception to this. -FM (talk) 02:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)FM

[edit] the phantom stranger

I just read a comic book by DC Comics called Secret Origins volume 2 #10. It had 4 versions of the Phantom Stranger's origin. In it on page 6, he admits he is the wandering jew. I was about to add this to the article, but noticed the comment by richfife. What are people's opinions on putting it into the article? I can use a proper citation format.--Rockfang (talk) 03:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't! Unless the Wandering Jew is a central part of the action/a key player/a vital element in the plot of a book/comic/film/whatever, passing references to him shouldn't go in this article. Otherwose it will become an endless list of trivia. If you have some desperate urge, create a List of passing references to the Wandering Jew - but don't expect me to support it when someone puts it up for delete!--Smerus (talk) 09:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This isn't a "passing reference". It takes up a quarter of a comic book and is mentioned in other comic books as noted in a section above.--Rockfang (talk) 13:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I see that the article on Phantom Stranger does indeed mention that one story of his origin is a 'variant of the Wandering Jew legend'. This not quite the sames as him 'admitting he is the Wandering Jew' - but I concede that it would just about justify a mention in the article with citation.--Smerus (talk) 15:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. The article on the Phantom Stranger needs to be fixed. In the comic book (page 6) he's talking to a priest and the priest says: "...but how dare you enter this house of God and tell me you're The Wandering Jew?". The Stranger replies: "It is the truth Father Knox."--Rockfang (talk) 15:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cain in the Land of Nod

I just wanted to note that I removed the reference to Cain being told to dwell in the Land of Nod (the author of which wrote that this means "wandering") as that is incorrect. Cain was told to be a wanderer, not to dwell anywhere. The fact that he dwells in a land called Nod is an example of irony. Much like being told to be a "Wanderer", in English, and so settling in a place called "Wander". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniboker (talk • contribs) 09:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)