Talk:Waltzing Matilda

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[edit] Early comments

officially recognised "National Song" . This sounds like a statement of fact. Is this verified anywhere? Graham Chapman

Of course it's not... but it IS one of the most widely recognised songs in the world :) btw, why can't the lyrics be quoted? Banjo Patterson wrote the darned thing, and he died almost a hundred years ago.

I've put the full text of Waltzing Matilda into the article. I can't see why the lyrics can't be quoted, it says right there in the article that no copyright has ever applied on it. I also fixed the "national song" - it's a folk song, and has no official status, despite its popularity. I also reworded the final words of the first paragraph, to remove ambiguity and highlight the fact that Advance Australia Fair is actually the current National Anthem. - User:Mark Ryan

An explanation is needed of the meaning of "waltzing Matilda" -- Error

Essentially, it means carryng a swag or bag. I think the term's of German origin. Arno 07:48 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Talking of German origin: Walz means the medieval to 19th C costum of craftsman working their way through the world for a few years before finally settling down, after they had finished their apprenteinceship (sorry if I got it misspelt). immanently, people who were "auf der Walz" (on Waltz) where pennyless travellers. I guess there never was such a tradition in the Anglo-Saxon countries, but it was quite strong all over Central Europe. User:Jakob Stevo

I seem to remember reading years ago that Waltzing Maitlda was based on a historical event involving a swag man called, possibly, Frederick Hofstetter. Can anyone confirm this confidently enough to put it into the article? Ping 08:29 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Really? I thought that his name was Andy - "Andy sat, as he watched , as he waited till his billy boiled..."
Seriously, though, he was fictitious. Arno 08:31 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

So who was Frederick Hofstetter? Middle name Andy maybe? Ping 08:35 25 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Don't you think it's worth mentioning that Tom Waits did an interpretation of the song which was probably the first time people outside Anglo-Saxon world (like myself) got to hear it, and which I still think is a great piece of music? User:Jakob Stevo

I think so. I will add it to the article. CyborgTosser 03:55, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The Tom Waits song, 'Tom Traubert's Blues (Four Sheets To The Wind In Copenhagen)', is more of an 'inspired by' than a strict cover; it combines the chorus of WM with a lot of original material. See lyrics here' for some idea of its nature. I've clarified the entry accordingly.--Calair 00:09, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not being from an English-speaking country, I have never heard "Waltzing Matilda" performed. In fact, before reading this article I didn't even know it existed. I read the lyrics though, and although I have no idea of how it sounds when set to music, it appeared to me that it would not make such a good national anthem. I mean, I'm sure the song must be beautiful, but I really do think that "Advance Australia Fair" was indeed the better choice — how nice it is to hear a national anthem that doesn't allude to war, death or vengeance, Australians are to be commended for chosing that song! Redux 23:16, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The original version actually did contain mention of war, along with a couple of other things not often sung today. See Advance Australia Fair for the unexpurgated version. --Calair 00:09, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"nice it is to hear a national anthem that doesn't allude to war, death or vengeance"
Yeah it's about theft and suicide instead. Attriti0n 08:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed the following section:

On Channel 7 on Saturday, 31 December 2005 at 11:55PM, Waltzing Matilda was sung with a slight modification of the words. Rather than saying 'once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong', the words jolly and Chinese were changed, hence 'once a Chinese swagman camped by a billabong'. The song was sung by a white Australian and intentions have not yet been understood, whether it was accidental, or to build links between China and Australia, as Australia did integrate Chinese lion-dancing in their 2005 end-of-year festival in Melbourne.

I'm not sure this is terribly significant. --Robert Merkel 05:23, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Magoffin

An obituary of Richard Magoffin in The Times has some interesting details.[1] His books sound like decent sources for pinning this article down a little. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Matilda no more

What about Matilda no more, which is a song sung by Slim Dusty? I believe like "And the band played Waltzing Matilda", it deserves a mention.


To be sure - why don't you include it? Slac speak up! 23:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australia's most widely known song?

The article begins, "Waltzing Matilda" is Australia's most widely known song. Is there any evidence for that claim? I propose rewording that sentence, e.g. by inserting the word possibly. Rocksong 00:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Waltzing Matilda reference in a Terry Pratchett work.

Is the following extract from The Last Continent by Terry Pratchett worthy of a mention under the 'Covers and derivative works' section? It can be found at the beginning of a section approximately three-fifths of the way through the book (page 248 of the Corgi paperback edition ISBN 0-552-14614-5).

"Once a moderately jolly wizard camped by a dried-up waterhole under the shade of a tree that he was completely unable to identify. And he swore as he hacked and hacked at a can of beer, saying, 'What kind of idiots put beer in tins?'"

John

[edit] Lyrics

I'm sure the lyrics on the page at the moment are wrong ("SAT by a billalong"??), but finding correct official lyrics is proving difficult. The National Library of Australia site http://www.nla.gov.au/epubs/waltzingmatilda/2-Vers-Changing_character.html provides a lyrics download [2], but then the ANU site has the modern lyrics here http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/WM/WMText.html , and even these two differ in at least six places:

  • 1. NLA has "shoved that jumbuck", ANU has "stuffed that jumbuck" (I think NLA is right);
  • 2. NLA has "down came the troopers", ANU has "up rode the troopers" (I think NLA is right);
  • 3. NLA has "whose that jumbuck", ANU has "Where's that jolly jumbuck" (I think ANU is right);
  • 4. NLA has "you've got in the tuckerbag", ANU has "you've got in your tuckerbag" (I think ANU is right);
  • 5. NLA has "sprang into the billabong", ANU has "sprang into that billabong" (not sure);
  • 6. NLA has "you'll never catch me alive", ANU has "you'll never take me alive" (I think NLA is right).

Anyway, if anyone can find an authoritative source of the lyrics, it'd be helpful. Rocksong 11:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I have discovered like many folk songs the variations of lyrics seem to be mutliplying. I haven't tried to change the lyrics as written here, becaseu all I could do is teh very POV act of changing them to the way I sing the song.
Instead of trying to put down definitive original lyrics and getting it wrong, perhaps the article can reflect the uncertainty - I think User:Rocksong's post, edited and tightened a bit, would be an excellent addition to the article. - DavidWBrooks 19:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
So where do the "original Banjo Patterson" lyrics come from, does anyone know? - DavidWBrooks 15:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Agree that the article could reflect uncertainty until certainty is established. I tend to agree with user Rocksong, except perhaps on the first and third points. The third point because, on the face of it, it doesn't seem to make sense to say "Where is the jumbuck in your tuckerbag?" (seems to be answering one's own question) — although the "jolly" part does sound familiar, and I notice the article has a mixture of both....
Secondly, what's with the spelling of 'coolabah' using an 'i'??? Surely this is wrong?
DIV 128.250.204.118 00:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I've just updated the "versions" section with information from "Singer of the Bush", which includes a facsimile of what is purported to be the original manuscript. Can anybody find something earlier? Groogle 04:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coolibah or Coolabah?

As IP address above mentions, the correct spelling is "coolabah". But it seems that Banjo Patterson didn't know that. The manuscript to which I refer isn't overly legible, but it definitely writes "coolibah". Groogle 04:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Song's Appeal

This entire section was added by User:Just nigel on 15-Nov. Though I'd agree with some of it, this section should cite a source, or be considered Wikipedia:Original Research and removed. Rocksong 04:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I actually came here to point out what he wrote is accurate and needs no source. You can't really find a source to support the claim that Australian's like the historical terms and that nobody else knows what the hell these mean. Just take our word for it ? Attriti0n 09:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The term "Waltzing Matilda"

I thought that "Waltzing Matilda" could mean "go travelling" or "be hung", and in several lines of the song it was referring to hanging (the sentence for stealing sheep), which is why the song is sung with a sad air. http://www.mamalisa.com/?p=53&t=es&c=19 Sad mouse 15:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

My understanding was that it related to carrying the swag (which is the subtitle of the poem, in fact). And I don't see anything particularly sad about the melody, which isn't the original anyway. Groogle 04:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Bill Bryson in "Down Under" is of the opinion that 'Matilda' means 'bedroll' and 'waltzing' means 'waltzing', as in the dance, and concludes that it makes no sense. But I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to think of various activities which could be described as 'bedroll dancing'. Gives the song a hugely different meaning though. Dyakson (talk) 00:43, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
and a meaning that I suggest would be anachronistic, especially given the meanings more carefully considered research has determined. --Matilda formerly known as User:Golden Wattle talk 02:16, 24 November 2007

It sounds almost good enough to be plausible. Sippawitz (talk) 13:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Swagman = Hobo?

As an Australian I find the term "hobo" and it's connotations offensive. I believe that the term "swagman" is better defined as an itinerant and vagrant. Also, by using the term "hobo" analogically, one assumes an American only reader. With due respect to the author.

Good point. I've removed it. Rocksong 23:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] America the Book

Waltzing Matilda is mentioned (and made fun of) in the Austrailia section of America the Book. Do you think it's worth mentioning in the article? --Fez2005 06:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It could be included as a reference by non-Australian cultures, included with the Terry Pratchett quote above.Sippawitz (talk) 13:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Folk Song?

Waltzing Matilda isn't a folk song, as it was written by an established poet, Banjo Patterson. I was going to put this in the article, but i'm sure it would get reverted. Anyone have an opinion on this?

It's sung and regarded as a song, not a poem. Not sure what distinction you are referring to here.Attriti0n 08:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references

this article is great but it's desperately in need of references... I'm sure there are many, if there is a museum on it? — Demong talk 02:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2007)

[edit] Copyright

This bit needs attention: "The song was falsely copyrighted by an American publisher in 1941 as an original composition. However, no copyright applies in Australia." I'd fix it myself, but don't know how. It says the song was mis-appropriated by someone, and implies the copyright was honored in the U.S., but it doesn't say who did it, or give any details other than the year.This assertion definately needs citation at the very least, and hopefully a bit more detail. Could someone who knows the topic please address this? Or remove it, if it can't be verified? --Loqi T. 19:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There's discussion of this at Roger Clarke's Waltzing Matilda page referenced in the article (http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/WM/Copyright.html). The whole story is convoluted, but Carl Fischer New York Inc. claims copyright on the most popular arrangement of the tune (Marie Cowan's 1903 Sydney arrangement) until 2011. Oddly enough, Richard Magoffin (referred to on the above site) was able to register a copyright in the U.S. on the original arrangement of the tune (by Christina Macpherson, ca. 1895) in 1987! Presumably these copyrights could not withstand serious legal challenge, but also presumably no one has felt the inclination to make such a challenge. Mahousu (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two tunes

Before I go adding what has been taken away before (as I've been known to do from time to time!), is there any reason that the article doesn't mention the existence of two separate tunes, depending on which part of Australia you live in?

To whit: Some parts the chorus says "Waltzing Matilda, Matilda my darling," whereas elswhere it is "Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda, who'll come a Waltzing Matilda with me?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by SwordBrother777 (talk • contribs) 14:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The "my darling" chorus is mentioned in the "Variations" section, although it implies that the version is no longer sung. If, indeed, it is common in parts of Australia, it would be great to have it mentioned there. - DavidWBrooks 15:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another Olympic Version

There's an Olympic version called "Goodbye Olympians" and it was sung at the closing ceremony of Melbourne Olympics 1956, does anybody have the lyrics of Goodbye Olympians? (JethroOlympiad (talk) 11:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:1982-Commonwealth-Games-Mascot.jpg

Image:1982-Commonwealth-Games-Mascot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Waltzing Matilda and the 1st Marine Division

As a former Marine of the 1st Mar Div and an Australian I challenge the statement that 'Waltzing Matilda' is an official march of the Division. As a participant in many Division parades I have never, ever heard the tune played.Foofbun (talk) 03:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

  • I have tagged for a citation. A possible source is http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/WM/ which has been cited elsewhere in the article. Note that this is not an endorsed ANU page but a personal page of a member of staff (These community service pages are a joint offering of the Australian National University (which provides the infrastructure), and Roger Clarke (who provides the content). + Visiting Professor, Faculty of Engineering and Information Technology which probably does not make him an academic on this subject).
Clarke states:

I understand that the tune (without the words) is the marching song of the U.S. 1st Marine Division. In 2003, Col Pat Garrett USMC confirmed that it was/is played every morning immediately after The Marines Hymn ('From the Halls of Montezuma . . .') following the raising of the National colo(u)rs at 0800, and at Divisional parades. Further, "The Division was raised at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina in early 1941, and became associated with Waltzing Matilda when the Marines came to Melbourne in early 1943 for rest and refit following the successful retaking of Guadalcanal, and before it returned to combat at Cape Gloucester in New Britain in the Northern Solomons in September of that year"

--Matilda talk 22:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Another source is http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6492.html which seems to be acolumn from the Bucks County Courier Times by Jerry Jonas. He states - Today in the greater Philadelphia area there are dozens of former 1st Division Marines who get together at monthly dinner meetings, and travel to national reunions to swap sea-stories and join their former buddies singing "Waltzing Matilda" (the Division's theme song since training in Australia in 1942).--Matilda talk 22:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This source seems pretty reliable and conclusive 1ST MARINE DIVISION CELEBRATES 65 YEARS published by US Fed News Service, Including US State News in February 2006 and states Major Gen. Richard F. Natonski and Sgt. Maj. Wayne R. Bell cut the ribbon to the "Waltzing Matilda," the 1st Marine Division's official song.]]--Matilda talk 22:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Sorry to be pedantic Matilda, but I sometimes wonder if something put on Wikipedia becomes a fact that is quoted. I can well believe that when the 1st Marine Division was in Melbourne (camped at the MCG, in fact I've a theory the "Battle Blaze' (shoulder insignia) of the Division was inspired by the Victorian State Flag) the tune would be a popular one amongst the WW2 Gyrenes. As an MP based on Mainside of Camp Pendleton in the mid '80's one of our functions was participating in parades and I don't recall the tune being played (I could be wrong, but I would've noticed the tune being played and discovering it was an official march). I also wonder about your comment about the tune being played at the morning colours ceremony. When I was there (again, on Mainside where all the Generals roamed) Colours and Retreat were usually played by a tape recording that you turned and faced towards the flagpole , saluting if you were in uniform. On SOME Fridays where you wore blues the Division band may have played some tunes, but I do not recall this on a regular basis. I would appreciate some active USMC source commenting on the matter. Thank you again, I don't mean to sound like a crank. Foofbun (talk) 05:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I am still (last two days) having trouble accessing any of the dot mil web pages. This Google search shows several Marines web sites supporting the assertion. The best I can do at this stage is view the Google cached versions. For example cached version of 1st Marine Division Band: History of Waltzing Matilda at http://www.i-mef.usmc.mil/msc/1MARDIV/band/WMHistory.htm states:

      During the Second World War, the 1st Marine Division maintained a training base in Australia preparing for the island hopping campaigns. The Marines adopted the unofficial Australian National Anthem, Waltzing Matilda, as their own. Today, Waltzing Matilda is recognized as the official song of the 1st Marine Division, and is played at ceremonies and other military functions to honor those who have served in the Division.

      Regards --Matilda talk 20:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Boiling Billy Reference

With reference to the original poem as listed at http://kids.niehs.nih.gov/lyrics/matilda.htm and from some topical radio broadcasts from the ABC in Victoria, Australia, I believe that the reference to the boiling billy came AFTER the poem was used as a promo for Billy Tea. The original Banjo poem did not use a boiling billy. So although the promo "jingle" version is the one everyone associates with, the original only refers to billabongs...

07:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)