Talk:Walter Raleigh

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[edit] Added Info

Added: In 1572 he is listed as an undergraduate at Oxford and in the registry of the Middle Temple in 1575.Alf 01:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) Moved "The city of Raleigh, North Carolina takes its name from Sir Walter." to bottom as it was at end of first para.

[edit] Lost Colony at Roanoke Island

This section is poorly written. I don't have time to deal with it, but hopefully someone will take it upon himself to improve this singular low point in the otherwise good quality of the article.

[edit] Irish History

I find it so insulting that this "Sir" Walter Raleigh fails to talk about the mass genocide HE commited in 1580 in Smerwick, Co. Kerry in Ireland. But then again, just like Oliver Cromwell, he's a pioneer and not a mass murderer. I guess somethings will never change, they were only Irish in anyway, so who cares???!!! truthfully... you ... you weirdo .. for your trying to correct the past , but the past is done and over with and ment to be forgotten..... that is why we all just fade away and waste are time... when everyone is just sheltered in their minds !!!!!!!!!!! so... bite me.

The inhabitants of Smerwick fort were around 600 Spanish and Italian soldiers who built up the defences there as a staging point for an invasion of England. So firstly: they weren't Irish, they weren't civilian, they were a foreign military force with the specific aim of attacking England. I can only guess that you've heard somewhere of a "massacre" at Smerwick and assumed it was an unprovoked attack on civilians. If you check out the facts you'll realise that the word "genocide" is completely inappropriate in this case, and the word "massacre" is used only because the Spanish were so comprehensively beaten. Since Raleigh was a mere captain at the time, aged 26, there's little point in adding it to the article.
So there's no need to feel "so insulted": if you want to rant on the behalf of people who have been dead for four centuries, you at least owe them the courtesy of checking out their story first. --J Tierney, Dublin.
Raleigh was one of the officers under Lord Grey's command, who carried out what was in fact a massacre of soldiers who had surrendered (they were paunched - stomachs slit with pikes). It was regarded with some horror in military circles in Europe at the time, and was seen as a precedent for Spanish massacres in the Azores in 1583. So, it was a significant event, and Raleigh played his part in it. Raleigh was a merciless soldier during the last of the Desmond Rebellions. The invasion force was not part of an overall attempt on England, but was sent to assist Catholic rebels in Munster under James Fitzmaurice Fitzgerald. The term genocide is laughably inappropriate for Smerwick itself, but perhaps not for the general manner in which the rebellion was suppressed. Ding-ding: next round!--Shtove 17:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Fair comment. I'll come clean and admit that my knowledge of the subject is built around 3 minutes of googling, so there's no need for a next round! I stick to my opinion that the original poster is an idiot, and that blindly applying loaded modern terms to pre-modern historical figures should be punishable by impalement. On a pike, no less!
I think the original poster was wearing on his lapel a great bunch of shamrock, cut with a red sickle. Applying modern terms to historical events is always dodgy. But then the one phrase that bugs me whenever I read it is: "Of course we cannot judge them by modern standards/mores/values..." Human nature doesn't change.--Shtove 21:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it bugs me too. Spread by academics who've read excerpts of Nietzsche but couldn't be arsed to read him in full. Cops his idea that moral systems are fluid human creations lacking universal validity, then insists on imposing "Thou shalt not pass judgement on the primitive moral systems of others" without a flicker of irony. As a fan of Prussia's best-kept moustache, I'm livid. Now, where did I leave my pike? (paunching - fantastic verb btw. Makes up for the fact I came here looking for the other Sir Walter Raleigh (1861-1922) and got sidelined)
Damn academics thinking they know more about their own subject than someone who's read Nietzsche! Of course moral systems change, where can we find absolute moral values, there is only human opinion which is heavily influenced by the culture it develops in. The only concept of absolute morals comes from a God (which I don't personally believe in) and even then there are contradictions and ambiguities effectively leaving it up to the judgement of the individual. Although maybe this isn't the place for discussion. I was also looking for another Walter Raliegh, btw, the fictional one on Blackadder II, who is linked to here!Jameskeates 08:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Back to the original point: now seems the evidence is that Raleigh was probably not at Smerwick - I don't have a reference for this, but if I'm right then reference to the massacre should not be included.--Shtove 16:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Scratch that - here's the lastest DNB saying he definitely was there: Mark Nicholls and Penry Williams, ‘Ralegh, Sir Walter (1554–1618)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, online edn, Oxford University Press, Oct 2006 accessed 29 Dec 2006 - I added it to the text.--Shtove 17:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I must agree, but i am to confuse him with another he was possble a closed catholic ? I believe i hear this from pbs in new York. The English have always been murders of the irish and this never going to change, aleast back then.

[edit] Request for correction

There seems to be a discrepancy in the section on "Later Life" - at one point it says that Raleigh's son Wat survived his parents, but later it appears that Wat was killed during Raleigh's lifetime. Could someone (who knows more about it than I do) fix this, please?

Jon Rob

Sources I read today confirm that in fact his son did die in 1616, although it mentions that Raleigh was sick and in fact it was his crew who started the fight with the Spanish. Also, the article that I read said that his son was named Walter and not Wat, so I think that should be confirmed too.
WB2 07:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Most biographies I have read - including 'Raleigh Trevelyan, 'Sir Walter Raleigh', 2003’, cited elsewhere in the article - broadly agree on the events surrounding the death of Sir Walter’s son.
Walter ('Wat' for short) Raleigh, Sir Walter's oldest son, was indeed killed in 1616. He accompanied Sir Walter on his ill fated voyage to Guiana, and once in South America he and other members of Raleigh’s crew (led by Lawrence Keymis) travelled up the Orinoco in search of gold. Based on his earlier explorations, Raleigh believed that there were great riches to be found up river, possibly in the form of a mine, and it was for this reason that the expedition was sent inland.
However, rather than any gold or mines, the group encountered a Spanish fort, ‘San Thome’. It is a matter of historical debate as to who began the altercation, it is perfectly possible it was the English. Sir Walter himself was not present when the fight occurred, as he was indeed sick (he was rather old by the standards of the time) and had remained on board ship while the others travelled inland. Once the skirmish began, Wat eagerly charged forward and was fatally shot. Raleigh had a younger son however, Carew, and it is he who survived his parents. (208.104.236.101 23:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC))
Apologies: I forgot to sign the aboce post. (Barnoir 23:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC))
Above, rather. Typo. (Barnoir 18:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] General cleanup, rm 'spy' note

Raleigh is hardly known for being a spy, regardless of how one views the charges of treason; fixed the opening sentence. A bit more detail about his fallout with Robert Cecil, and political background to the charges, is called for. Another few sentences about Essex and the treasonous plots, should also be added. +sj + 04:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life in the Tower of London, execution

How is it that this article has gone this long without mentions of these details? —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 15:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you can piggy-back and type at the same time - presidential candidate you!--Shtove 01:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last Words

Elsewhere on the internet Raleigh's last words are said to be "So the heart be right, it is no matter which way the head lieth" or something along those lines - sources found http://www.bartleby.com/268/3/6.html and http://www.corsinet.com/braincandy/dying2.html. Clarify please - Kevin

Most biographies I've encountered have given "Strike man, strike!" (directed to the headsman) as Raleigh's last words. Consequently I have altered the text to reflect this, although I encountered an odd malfunction when I attempted to add a reference in the form of a footnote. I’ll give it another try. (Barnoir 06:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC))
I couldn't get the footnote to work, may just have been me. I put the reference in the text instead. (208.104.236.101 06:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] What Happened ?

We had a nice article through to the 25th of February; then 86.130.50.48 and 87.126.28.171 deleted everything without explanation.

WB2 07:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted to that version. Jooler 11:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Happened again, and for some reason, I'm not able to revert. Did someone disable something? Finding a way around it via the History page. gspawn 14:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hearsay and Sir Walter Raleigh

My evidence professor lead me to believe that Sir Walter Raleigh's death prompted the hearsay rule on evidence, which essentially states that an out of court witness' statements can't be introduced for the truth of the matter asserted in court (so, I can't testify that "Bill told me that Sir Walter Raleigh intended to kill the king"). The rule is very relevant for modern court proceedings, and had it been present most likely Raleigh wouldn't have been executed (think it was unsubstantiated rumor that was alleged against him). I'd add it in directly, but I don't have anything besides a foggy recollection to substantiate the claim. Any help? Jahenderson 19:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Walter Raleigh's Date of Birth

Someone has changed Walter Raleigh's Year of Birth to 1552. Many authorities are unsure of Raleigh's exact birth date, but most say 1554 is most likely. I have not reverted the Year of Birth. Is there a more authoritative answer? Nick Taylor 15:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Until there is further discussion on this, I have changed the DoB to 1552 or 1554. HoCkEy PUCK 16:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change the Introduction

The introduction should be more than a few sentences on the man's name. At least add a small summary of his life and his achievements to the introduction. HoCkEy PUCK 16:44, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rally, really?

"...though in practice "rally" is the usual modern pronunciation." Comment? I daren't. --Wetman 03:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm skeptical that "rally" could be called the "usual" pronunciation; in fact, I don't think I've ever heard the name pronounced "rally". It's always been pronounced "rawley" in my experience. This probably needs some evidence if it's going to stay in. Gomer Bolstrood 02:28, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a cultural-horizon issue, I think: "Raleigh, North Carolina" is pronounced "rally"— and "North Carolina" is pronounced "No'th Calina".--Wetman 07:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've heard the name 'Raleigh' being pronounced the same as 'rally', over here in Ireland. Mushed 21:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I've always heard it as 'Rally' or 'Ralleh'. However, I do remember reading somewhere (infuriatingly, I can't remember where) that as a Devon man he always pronounced it 'Rawley'. Mon Vier 14:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've always heard it being pronounced 'raa (rhyming with car) lee'.--Jcvamp 23:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sean Connery pronounces it 'rally' in The Rock, and I like to trust Sir Sean on all matters of pronunciation. Win.
I think it's a British-American thing. I've never heard Americans call him anything but "Rawley", but I've never heard British, Australians or New Zealanders call him anything but "Rally". -- JackofOz 01:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Raleigh Bicycles

Does anyone know why the Raleigh Bicycle company named itself after Sir Walter Raleigh? His image was used for many years in Raleigh ads and catalogs. --- Amir

Raleigh Bicycle Company was founded by Frank Bowden in 1887 in a small cycle manufacturing shop on Raleigh Street in Nottingham. --Wetman 01:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Puddle

I was a little surprised in stumbling across this article to see the dropped-his-cloak-for-Elizabeth-to-avoid-puddle story not mentioned at all, even if it's been debunked. It's so widely associated with him that it probably deserves its own section. I'm not qualified to write on the veracity of it but if someone would do a paragraph on it I'd argue it should be included. Old64mb 14:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Potatoes

There's a common myth that Walter Raleigh introduced the potato to Britain. Though there is little evidence to support the idea, I think it would be worth mentioning.--Jcvamp 23:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Spam

There is an error--junk--in the New World Section —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccarroll (talk • contribs) 10:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] He went to San Thome?

Is Sao Tome of Sao Tome and Principe the place intended in the first paragraph of this article? Arthurian Legend (talk) 04:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where was he really beheaded?

Was it Whitehall or the Tower of London? The article claims both, and neither claim has a citation. Dwsnyder00 (talk) 02:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

He was imprisoned in the Tower, and beheaded at Whitehall. I can't see anything in the article saying he was beheaded at the Tower (though it may have been edited since your comment). DuncanHill (talk) 09:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I have just looked at the DNB article, and that says he was executed at Westminster. Whitehall is in Westminster, and as I recall was a popular place for high-profile executions, but you are quite right, we need some better sourcing and citation here. DuncanHill (talk) 09:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The name is Ralegh

If a complete citation would have been made in the first footnote, you would read:

Ralegh himself had not kept the same spelling throughout his life. Down to 1583 his more usual signature had been the phonetic Rauley. But in 1578 he signed as Rawleyghe a deed which his father signed as Ralegh, and his brother Carew as Rawlygh. A letter of March 17, 1583, is the first he is known to have signed as Ralegh; and in the following April and May he reverted to the signature Rauley. From June 9, 1584, he used till his death no other signature than Ralegh. It appears in his books when the name is mentioned. It is used in a pedigree drawn up for him in 1601. Of the hundred and sixty-nine letters collected by Mr. Edward Edwards, a hundred and thirty-five are thus signed. Six signed Rauley, one Raleghe, and one Rauleigh, belong to an earlier date. The rest are either unsigned or initialled. The reason of his adoption of the spelling Ralegh from 1584, unless that it was his dead father's, is unknown. Of the fact there is no doubt. The spelling Raleigh, which posterity has preferred, happens to be one he is not known to have ever employed. Stebbing, Sir Walter Ralegh, Oxford 1899 [1]

So, I'll adapt/move the article after a discussion period. --Ayacop (talk) 08:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

At the time, it was common to vary spellings - particularly of names, for instance "Shakespeare" never used that variant of his name at any time during his life. The primary concern in wikipedia is naming an article by its 'common name' - ie the name that the majority of people (throughout the world) would look for. It is enough to provide an explanation of the variation in the article, for the different forms of the name.
It should be recognised that the first serious attempts to formalise English spelling did not come about until the late 17th century (again, Shakespeare, for instance, uses different spellings of common words in order to indicate the rhyme he is trying to achieve). In the 18th and 19th, there were further moves to formalise the English language - that resulted in spelling differences between English and American varieties of English ...
The current introduction indicates that there are variations of the name. 'Ralegh' should (and does) redirect here. This latter spelling appears to have been recently adopted for 'key stage 2' history and science; it may well become the more common variety although that will still leave the problem of persuading the residents of Raleigh, North Carolina that they should go with the flow .... Kbthompson (talk) 08:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)