Talk:Wallis, Duchess of Windsor

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Talk:Wallis, The Duchess of Windsor/Archive 1

Contents

[edit] Titles and Styles

[edit] Wikipedia Convention re Names

Should this and other similar entry of famous people known by other names than their birth names be changed? Should she be listed under "Wallis Warfield"? I know, given the many entries, this would be a difficult task but was just wondering. Mowens35 18:01, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have moved this article to Wallis Simpson. This is the name by which she is far better known, not only does the article say so but also the vast majority of articles link to this title rather than Wallis Warfield. Also, as much as I do not like the method, the Google test supports my suggestion (8430 vs. 38300). Rje 01:42, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Wallis should not be moved to pre-marital name: after all, she was not queen consort. Her marriage was with an ex-monarch, who was peerage Duke (guy with a substantial title) during the marriage. To such, our NC allots "consort name" here. In these grounds, Wallis should be Wallis, Duchess of Windsor. 217.140.193.123 18:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Please stop this moving war. This page has been renamed five times since July 4th; four of those times have been in the past 11 days. Also, you're leaving double redirects all over the place. I'd fix them myself, but doing so seems rather pointless when the page will likely be moved again within the next week. 青い(Aoi) 00:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Astute data of corresponding rant by a certain editor, see Wikipedia talk:Lamest edit wars ever#Bring in the Queens. The mass of text may exceed two good Agatha Christie novels :)
Who keeps moving this article to the wrong flaming location? In historical naming (which Wikipedia as a matter of policy follows), consorts of kings and ex-kings revert to the pre-marital name on death. Hence Mary of Teck, Catherine of Aragon, Alexandra of Greece, Frederika of Hanover, Blanche of Castile, Catherine of Braganza, etc. Wives who married ex-kings are treated similarly because articles on their husbands often use their regnal name so it makes writing text difficult if they then are referred to by post-marital name when all others in the series are at pre-marital name. As wives of ex-kings they also have a higher status than wives of princes and peers, because many ex-kings, particularly if deposed and a republic declared, are often described as King x of y as a courtesy title for the remainder of their lifetime. Other times, where they have abdicated freely they are described as ex-King x of y. They do not revert to personal name or title unless a new king is reigning. By the way, to sort out the mess quadruple redirects had to be fixed, and triple directs. It is bad enough putting the article in the wrong naming format repeatedly without then making it unusable because much of its links are screwed up.
Also, the claim that the Duke of Windsor was a peer is wrong. He was a royal peer but as an ex-king was treated as superior to all royal peers in forms of diplomatic and historical usage, given that he once a king. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\(caint) 00:21, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

When Wallis married the ex-king, he already was ex, and was Duke of Windsor. She was thus the wife of a guy who held substantive title of peerage and THEY WERE KNOWN under that name and title. Our usage has been not to revert deceased wives of peers to their pre-marital names, they remain in their consort name. Wallis, Duchess of Windsor is the heading in accordance with that. Otherwise, for example Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, Wallis' sister-in-law, gets moved to Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott, and dizens of other ladies too.

Regarding the usual pontificating (an misrepresentation-prone) rambling by Jtdirl above, there are plenty of points in his writings themselves that contradict his position, and additionally some of his allegations are untrue, some are false analogies, etc. How typical. Having seen that behavior in several incidents, I must wonder whether he himself understands what he is doing, or is even his comprehension defective nowadays. One of the misrepresentations above is the allegation that "wives of ex-kings" are treated similarly as wives of reigning kings. That reads not in any of NCs here, it apparently comes from thin air. And: Edward was treated and called as Duke of Windsor in diplomatic usage. Not as ex-king, which would have been undiplomatic towards his reigning brother. Mary of Teck, Catherine of Aragon, Frederika of Hanover, Blanche of Castile, Catherine of Braganza were not wives of ex-kings ever. False analogy. Alexandra of Greece was wife of Peter II at the time Peter was reigning king, later they together became ex-king and ex-queen. Despite of which, Jtdirl himself in 2003 wanted to make her here Princess Alexandra of Greece, treating her differently than deceased consorts of reigning kings. Anyway, false analogy, as Wallis married ex-king after abdication, Alexandra on the contrary was queen in the very real reign of her husband. Wallis could be better (but not fully) likened to the morganatic wife of Franz Ferdinand of Austria, or with the second wife of Grand Duke Constantin Pavlovich of Russia (who, after all, renounced as did Edward). Wallis as wife of ex-king had no higher status than a duchess consort, and she was well KNOWN as Duchess of Windsor. You know, she did not even become HRH. Where then is her purported "higher" status, in reality as opposite to someone's imagination? Edward VIII was not referred as King of anything in the remainder of his life, not as courtesy nor as a pretension. Reality check, please. Untrue allegations do not help here. He reverted to another name (title, D of W) precisely because another was already reigning - Jtdirl, please read yourself what you write. 217.140.193.123 01:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with 217 here - Wallis was not a consort of a reigning monarch, or even of a pretender (as, for instance, Anne of Bourbon-Parma is (although, being still alive, she should probably be at Queen Anne of Romania, shouldn't she?) She was the consort of an abdicated monarch, where somebody else had become monarch, and who was himself no longer known as "King Edward VIII." I see no reason not to put her at Wallis, Duchess of Windsor. She is best known as the Duchess of Windsor, it may be added, and wives of peers normally go under their peerage title. john k 02:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I agree with the article being at Wallis, Duchess of Windsor. Astrotrain 19:10, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes, Wallis, Duchess of Windsor. --StanZegel 23:15, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Excuse me, no. "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor", is not a title by which she was commonly known. If we are going down that road, we may as well call her by her full name of "Bessiewallis" in the title of the article. She is, and always has been, most commonly known as "Wallis Simpson". It seems to me that she cannot be held subject to naming conventions in the normal way because her position was quite unprecedented. Deb 21:38, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
If we substitute "Fergie" for "Wallis Simpson", and "Sarah, Duchess of York" for "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" would you accept the same rule? After all, she is "most commonly known" as Fergie, isn't she? I suspect, looking at the positions taken so far and the locations of those editors, that different POV enters into here based upon which side of the Atlantic Ocean one is on. In Britain, "she stole our king" and folks begrudged her the title that King George VI allowed. In the USA, she was "local girl makes good" and folks were proud of her rise in status and did use her title, and that is how most folks refer to her here nowadays. --StanZegel 00:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
It is perfectly simple. As a divorced royal consort, she is referred to as Sarah, Duchess of York. When she dies as in normal royal naming she would be referred to as Sarah Ferguson. Fergie is just a nickname and can no more be used than W can for George W. Bush. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\(caint) 00:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Since you just implicitly consented to it, I think we should go and move Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester to Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott. Or should we, Jtdirl? 217.140.193.123 08:26, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Even you must be aware that this is a completely false comparison, Mr Arrigo. Deb 15:10, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Deb is 100% right. According to google, Wallis Simpon produces 32,800 links [1]. Wallis, Duchess of Windsor, when Wikipedia is excluded, produces a whopping total of 540 links. [2] This article here is at a ludicrous and frankly ridiculous name. FearÉIREANNImage:Ireland coa.png\(caint) 23:14, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Using the same sort of test (the formal colloquial name vs Wikipedia standard name), "Franz Joseph" (excluding Haydn, etc) produces 96,000 links, and "Franz Joseph I of Austria" produces a whopping total of 494 links. We need to be sure to do to the Franz Joseph article the same as is done to this one, if the Googlecount Standard is to replace the Wikipedia Policies. --StanZegel 00:26, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
This is not what I'm saying. Aside from the fact that "Wallis Simpson" is not a "colloquial name" but a real name, we need to think before we start moving things around - otherwise we end up with a repeat of the Alix of Hesse problem. Deb 15:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

WP at the end of November/start of December 2005 changed its naming policy on consorts slightly. Previously it used as disambigulation <first name>, <disambigulation title of peerage>. However this was controversial as it that matched the real life version used by divorced wives of peers, and so created the impression that the person was an ex-wife, not current wife. A proposal was made by a user to vary the disambigulation slightly, to <first name>, <actual peerage title>. There was practically full unanimity to make this move. Pages were all changed. It seems this slipped through the net and inadvertently remained at the old format which was open to the interpretation that Wallis was the ex-wife of the Duke of Windsor (if they had divorced, her title would have been Wallis, Duchess of Windsor). I've moved the page to confirm with all the others other users moved in early December. Under the new format, <first name>, <actual peerage title> produces Wallis, The Duchess of Windsor. (I'm not sure I agree with the capital in The but that seems to be what the consensus wanted, and was used elsewhere, so I guess this page has to fit the pattern too.)

Re opening paragraph, again a structural agreement was reached to use accuracy rather than made-up disambigulation. So instead of Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall that article begins The Duchess of Cornwall (names . . . ). I'm following that same format too, as Wallis was not formally Wallis, Duchess of Windsor but simply The Duchess of Windsor. It makes sense that all consort biographies follow the same format rather than each make up their own. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 21:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Surely she should be WALLIS SIMPSON as a deceased royal consort (like Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Alice Montagu-Douglas-Scott, Mary of Teck etc)

I don't think this should be "Wallis, The Duchess of Windsor" like Camilla is titled "Camilla The Duchess of Cornwall". Wallis is dead - "The" implies she's living (except "the" with a small "t" since thats a common noun not a proper noun). See Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire - she's not "Georgiana, The Duchess of Devonshire" since THE Duchess of Devonshire is Amanda Cavendish who is living. She should be Wallis, Duchess of Windsor as she is dead. Compare also "Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester" - she's not "Princess Alice, THE Duchess of Gloucester".

They are known like that to disambigulate former duchesses from the current one. There is no current Duchess of Windsor so such disambigulation is unnecessary here. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 20:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes but saying Wallis, Duchess of Windsor invariably implies she IS divorced (which she was not). This is the same in the case of Diana, Princess of Wales. Diana was not The Princess of Wales when she died and as such the definite article must be used in the circumstances of titles for deceased persons. Princess Alice, the Duchess of Gloucester is correct just as Diana, Princess of Wales is correct (as it reflects what they were at the time). Suggesting something like that would be like making an article denying the title The Princess Alice to Princess Alice because it implies she is alive.

I'm running into difficulties, at FAC because the page is named anomalously. I'm going to move it to: "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" per User:John Kenney, User:Astrotrain, User:StanZegel, User:Jdforrester, User:217.140.193.123 and User:Giano. DrKiernan 08:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I would start an even bigger to-do if I removed the "Bessiewallis" bit, because that is an urban legend....? I will do more solid research & come back if I find I have impeccable sources.FlaviaR 06:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lame fame

I hereby suggest that the war over moving this article be propositioned to inclusion into the Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever. The basic criterion there is "if the war is of silly cause" and further signals are "edits are trivial", "warring shows pettiness"... The candidature will be immensely strengthened if other issues (such as other articles) are absorbed into the same war, if an involved admin either protects, or otherwise uses admin features in the war. A block administered by an involved sysop against some opponent also helps to get the place in the hall of fame. Should we all work towards having this included there? 217.140.193.123 10:25, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The best idea you've had so far is that you should spend the majority of your time playing around with the Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever article, while the rest of us get on with some real work. Deb 15:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chronology of Names

OK, somebody please set me straight here. When married to Ernest Simpson, she was Mrs Ernest Simpson. When they divorced, she was Mrs Wallis Simpson. OK so far. But when did she ever become known as "Mrs Wallis Warfield", either between her second divorce and her marriage to Edward, or at any other time? I thought Edward married "Mrs Simpson", not anybody Warfield. Warfield was her maiden name, so adding Mrs to it doesn't sound right at all. Her father's wife would have been Mrs Warfield, but not Bessiewallis. JackofOz 07:11, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

  • "Ms" wasn't in common use back then. Married women who did keep their maiden name used either Miss or Mrs (often shifting to Mrs as they got older or had children). She re-adopted her maiden name only a few weeks before the wedding to avoid having her ex-husband's name on the marriage certificate. Even today I know married women who kept their maiden names and use Mrs.
She not only readopted her maiden name, it was restored to her via deed poll, ie legally, therefore wiping away the Simpson surname. And she used, as per usual society honorific at the time, Mrs. Mowens35 17:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title when in the Bahamas

The article says that when Edward governed the Bahamas 1940-45, she was known as "Her Excellency Wallis Windsor". Is this right? Surely she would have been Her Excellency the Duchess of Windsor, just as Edward was His Excellency the Duke of Windsor, not His Excellency Edward Windsor. Cheers JackofOz 05:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I've amended the text to say that, while she was technically entitled to "Her Excellency" as the wife of a governor, this was subsumed by "Her Grace". I've removed all reference to "Wallis Windsor", unless somebody can come up with evidence that she was actually known by that name while in the Bahamas. I strongly doubt it. JackofOz 05:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
A royal governor is always styled by his royal style as a member of the Royal Family. Thus the Duke of Windsor would never have been styled His Excellency in the Bahamas. It is harder to say what Wallis was styled as she was denied by letters patent, the HRH style and was only entitled to Her Grace. However Edward always styled her Royal highness anyway, offically she was still Her Grace. Astrotrain 17:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Quoting from Valentine Heywood and Gerald Wollaston, Garter Principal King of Arms 1930-44 (British Titles published by Adam and Charles Black, London, 1951) p.156: 'A Governor is styled "His Excellency"...Wives of Governors are not normally accorded the style...if the holders of any of the above offices are Princes or Dukes they take the style of their rank. Thus the Duke of Windsor was "His Royal Highness the Governor" and the Duke of Abercorn (Governor of Northern Ireland) "His Grace the Governor".' DrKiernan 10:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, Sarah Bradford in her biography George VI (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1989; p.441) says that the Secretary of State for the Colonies George Lloyd, 1st Baron Lloyd sent instructions to Government House, Nassau that 'the Duke should be addressed as "Your Royal Highness" and the Duchess as "Your Grace".' DrKiernan 14:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Her Grace or Royal Highness?

Wallis was never styled "Her Royal Higness", except in an unofficial capacity within her own household (ie servants would address he as HRH). From her marriage until her death she was "Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor" not HRH the Duchess of Windsor. (Alphaboi867 23:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC))

Although denied the HRH explicitly by letters patent, surely Wallis was still a Princess of The United Kingdom by virtue of being married to a Prince? Her husband was H.R.H. The Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor - so was she not Her Grace The Princess Edward, Duchess of Windsor?

  • Yes and no. Strictly speaking, you are correct that she was a Princess of the UK in right of her husband and because Edward's wife was not expressly deprived of that rank by Royal Prerogative. The Letters Patent depriving Edward's (future) wife of the right to be styled Royal Highness were drawn with surgical precision: the exact terms were used that would suffice to prevent her from being addressed as if royal -- and no more. Because there is no legal provision or tradition in the UK for referring to the wife of a royal duke as "Princess Husbandsfirstname", Wallis had no right to assume it. Even though her rank as a royal princess remained, the only way the style that goes with that rank has ever been publicly manifested -- and therefore the only way in which court tradition honors it -- is in the form "HRH the Duchess of X". Attempting to use it in any other fashion would have encroached upon the Royal Prerogative. Wallis could not adopt such a style without appearing to directly defy her husband's sovereign, on whose authority any rank at court (as distinct from in Parliament) rested. Had she done so, her defiance would have invited the King to issue a clarifying royal warrant, something to the effect of "The lawful wives of royal dukes shall be known by the feminine form of their husbands' style of Royal Highness and ducal title, except as otherwise stipulated" which would have explicitly, humiliatingly declared the use of "Princess Husbandsfirstname" out-of-bounds by Britain's legal fons honorum. None of that happened, of course, because Edward knew the Rules and, resentment aside, abided by them. Had the use of her residual title of princess been considered a possibility, no doubt the LP restricting the HRH to Edward would also have restricted the "Prince" to Edward: royal titles and styles, unlike peerages and constitutional titles (e.g. Queen consort), are within the monarch's gift. Note that in his 4 May 1937 request to his Prime Minister, Stanley Baldwin, George VI insists not merely upon ensuring that Wallis does not enjoy the HRH, but that she not be considered royal at all. He didn't need to strip her of her "princesshood" to do that, he had merely to prevent her from using it: "Is she a fit and proper person to become a Royal Highness after what she has done in this country; and would the country understand it if she became one automatically on marriage?...I and my family and Queen Mary all feel that it would be a great mistake to acknowledge Mrs Simpson as a suitable person to become Royal. The Monarchy has been degraded quite enough already." Of course, it is widely believed (accurately or not) that within his own house and circle, Wallis was accorded all the deference and styling due a royal duchess anyway -- but never, officially, at his brother's court or in his realms. Lethiere 04:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I am all confused. By the time Wallis married Edward, he had already abdicated. So he was no longer a Prince or a King. He was created a Duke. If he was no longer a Prince, how would Wallis have any rights to being a Princess? Could anyone please explain to this befuddled American? 66.108.4.183 08:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth
Edward VIII abdicated the position and title of "King". He did not renounce (and was not explicitly deprived of) the title of "Prince" or the style of "Royal Highness" which, according to Letters Patent of 1917, continued to belong to him as son of a (late) British sovereign. (However, it has recently been revealed that, at the time, some legal and other experts of the Government of the day did express the opinion that such styles implicitly belong only to {some of} those who are in the line of succession to the British throne and that since, following abdication, Edward was no longer in that order, he had automatically forfeited his royal styles. But because, by decision of George VI, he was referred to publicly as "HRH The Prince Edward" from the moment of abdication, it would have been embarrassing and mean-spirited to retroactively deny him that title in order to deny it to his future wife. So some other way was sought, and was found: See 1937 Letters Patent). By custom (and some would say, in common law), if Edward reverted to being a prince after abdicating, anyone he married would become a princess and HRH. A few months after the abdication, Edward was created Duke of Windsor. That title did not cancel or replace his princely styles, but was added to them, although that fact was not apparent because, by tradition, once a prince is granted a peerage, he no longer uses his princely title. Thus, he went from being referred to as "HRH Prince Edward of the United Kingdom..." to "HRH the Duke of Windsor". Shortly before Edward married Mrs. Simpson, LPs were issued restricting use of the style HRH to Edward alone, explicitly denying it to any future wife and children.Lethiere 11:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
That helps somewhat; thank you. However, I'm still confused about this: Why, during his life after abdication, was he then called the Duke of Windsor, and not "Prince Edward?" And also, if he retained the title of prince, what would it have been: Prince Edward what? One would think that "Prince" is a higher rank than "Duke." I guess I thought that he lost the title "Prince" upon abdication; it went with "King." 66.108.4.183 14:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth
As stated earlier, it is customary for a royal duke to drop his princely designation, which is implicit through the use of HRH but not explicit in use. It it rather like a hidden title, true in actuality but never used in reality when paired with a royal dukedom. I hope I got that right.Mowens35 17:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I think I will quit right about here. This is worse than trying to make sense of the 'von/zu' distinction among the minor Prussian nobility. It's alot easier in my country: You either have money, or you don't.:) 66.108.4.183 16:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

When Wallis married Prince Edward, the King Goerge VI using letters patent,prevented Wallis from using the style of Her Royal Highness, thats why she was styled only as WALLIS, DUCHESS OF WINDSOR. With no style. She cant get the style YOUR GRACE, beacuse The Duke of Windsor was a ROYAL PRINCE.

I believe you are incorrect. During her lifetime she was officially styled "Her Grace the Duchess of Windsor", as all Duchesses of England, Scotland, Ireland and the UK are entitled to the style of "Your Grace" unless they divorce, or are superceded by a superior title such as "Your Royal Highness". DrKiernan 09:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Until we can resolve this issue with an appropriate reference I have suggested a compromise of "The Duchess of Windsor" with no style. DrKiernan 09:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I just thought that I should point out among all of these other arguments that there is a very simple stlye that is incorrectly being used again and again - Wallis, Duchess of Windsor. The correct form for a duchess (normally living) is The Duchess of X. A christian name preceeded by this, i.e., Sarah, Duchess of Malborough is only used to denote dowagers (widows) and the former spouses of a peer. Sarah, Duchess of York is correct as she is the divorced wife of a peer as is Deborah, Duchess of Devonshire as the widow of the previous duke (she may also choose to be known simply as The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire.) However, these styles are only used to distinguish between a previous and incumbant holder of such a title. As there has been no other - nor will there be in the forseeable future - Duchesses of Windsor, Wallis Simpson should simply be known as THE DUCHESS OF WINDSOR. For support of this and further reading I would direct all of you to either Burke's or Debrette's Perrage. Bearing this in mind i think that all instances of Wallis, Duchess of Windsor should be cleared up. JYBenton 05:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

We've already been through all this. You are correct that the style used officially in her lifetime was "The Duchess of Windsor". But the name engraved on her tombstone (by order of the Queen, who should know these things) is "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor". Besides this, the name of this article and the style used in the text of the article does not reflect official styles or royal preference, it reflects wikipedia policy. DrKiernan 08:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I quote Valentine Heywood's 1951 book "British Titles: The Use and Misuse of the Titles of Peers and Commoners, with Some Historical Notes", endorsed and with a forward by Sir Gerald Wollaston, Garter Principal King of Arms 1930-44:

'The view I then expressed was that as all the peerage titles he had formerly held had been extinguished by his succession to the throne, the King reverted to the state in which he had been born, i.e. His Royal Highness and a Prince of Great Britain...Sir John Reith introduced him to the world as "His Royal Highness Prince Edward". I think it can be taken for granted that the then Director-General of the British Broadcasting Corporation was not speaking without having sought advice and received authority...though only an Act of Parliament can take a peerage away from a person1, it is for the Sovereign to decide who shall or shall not have the princely style and title...A Duchess should be addressed formally as "Your Grace" or "Madam", and informally as "Dear Duchess of Blank" or "Dear Duchess".'

DrKiernan 12:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

1Note that he was writing in 1951, before the Peerage Act 1963.

The Crown in Parliament can do anything, unless an act or treaty is entrenched with words such a s "forever", as parts of the act of union were. Furthermore, the Crown can issue and revoke letters patent as desired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.122.209 (talk • contribs) 02:45, 11 January 2007

Not true, there are many acts that include exactly that language but have been repealed. The Irish/British Act of Union reads Article 1: that the said Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland shall, upon the 1st day of January... forever after, be united into one Kingdom As to LPs it depends on what the LP does. LP creating a peerage can't be revoked without an AoP. Alci12 14:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parents marriage -- a contradiction

Quoth the article: She was born seven months after their wedding, though some sources state that she was born before her parents' marriage ... Her father died of tuberculosis a few weeks before her birth.

Contradictions here. If her father died before she was born, obviously she couldn't have been born before her parents' marriage! Does the writer mean to imply that her parents were never actually married? Or should this "some sources" line be excised altogether? --Jfruh 05:25, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a problem here. The chronology seems to be: (a) she was conceived, (b) her parents were married, (c) her father died, (d) she was born. The only connection between when a child is conceived/born and when (or even if) the parents marry is a culturally imposed one, which obviously was ignored in this case. JackofOz 06:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about social conventions, I'm talking about physical impossiblity. The problem is with the phrase "...some sources state that she was born before her parents' marriage." This implies that, according to "some sources," (a) she was conceived, (b) she was born, (c) her parents were married -- but since the article states as fact that her father died before (b), there's a chronological problem, as he couldn't very well marry her mother when he was dead. So, either the statement that her father died before she was born is wrong, or the possibility offered that her parents got married after her birth is not in fact possible.
I suppose it's possible that what the "some sources" bit is trying to imply is that her parents were never married to one another. If so, it's awkwardly worded because it implies that they did marry eventually. --Jfruh 16:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's an even greater contradiction for you: her parents were married (according to Charles Higham) on 19th November 1896. Her father died (according to a user-submitted file on ancestry.com) on 15th November 1896. I think this will only be resolved by referring to the original records rather than books written decades after the events. DrKiernan 10:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wiki does not allow that kind of research. We have to use previously published material, not municipal archives. The Higham book seems clearest, since its footnotes cite the material accessed to make the claims of illegitimacy, ie Wallis Warfield's birth certificate and her parents' marriage license.Mowens35 17:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

(Slight change of topic & writer)
I found the following misleading, although accurate:

In 1908, Alice Warfield married her second husband, John Freeman Rasin.

I would rather see something like this:

In 1908, Alice Warfield (her mother) married her second husband, John Freeman Rasin.

Reasoning: Her Mother is introduced as "Alice Montague" in §1, and it wasn't clear to me at first that Alice Warfield would be her mother. This might be a symptom of my own thickness today, so I didn't edit this change into the production page, but am leaving it up to the good people here to make a decision.
//rhi

[edit] Government leaders against the marriage and lack of sources

From the article: "Further the British government and the governments of the dominions (except the Irish Free State) were against the idea of marriage between the King and an American divorcee."

While this is the general thought, according to a BBC documentary ("Abdication: A Very British Coup"), more recently unclassified documents actually show this wasn't the case. Several commonwealth leaders aside from Ireland actually approved of a marriage...New Zealand I know for sure, off the top of my head.

Also...isn't anyone else bothered by the lack of sources in this article?

88.108.194.247 01:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Michaela

Yes, I'm also bothered by the lack of sources. I am currently reading through the available material to identify suitable citations and perform a clean-up. Might take me a while though. DrKiernan 09:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Public opinion

"Public opinion in the UK seemed to be going against Wallis, who was, in the opinion of her detractors, "not fitted to be Queen".[1]"

  1. ^ The Times (London), Tuesday, 8 December 1936 p. 17 col. B

I deleted this sentence: The Times is by no means reflective of popular opinion and the editor was known to be personally vehemently opposed to the marriage. Cripipper 20:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide more information justifying your edit? The Times was regarded at the time as one of -- if not the -- most reputable newspapers in the world. To exclude a citation from it while inserting a "Cite" message demanding a different citation in its place, calls for substantiation of your interpretation that the article's statement, "Public opinion in the UK seemed to be going against Wallis..." mischaracterizes or is inadequately supported by the cited Times article. It is actually irrelevant whether The Times was accurate or inaccurate, biased or unbiased in its assessment, since WP's standard is verifiability, not truth. As yet, I can't see the grounds for your edit. However, if you can quote a reputable news source with an alternative assessment on this point, it would be appropriate to cite it in the article along with The Times quote. Lethiere 07:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Quite simply, The Times was not an accurate guide to public opinion, in its most broadly conceived sense, but rather of London high society. Firstly The Times and its editor were from the outset opposed to the King marrying Wallis Simpson, and retained that position throughout the abdication crisis. Thus a negative quote from The Times is no evidence of the run of public opinion. The editorial stance of the broadsheets (whose readership at this time was about 1% of that of the tabloids), and of which The Times was of course the most prominent, was at odds with that of the popular press. A quote from the 'popular press' would be admissible as a guide to public opinion, but not The Times. Though, in one sense, this all boils down to whether 'public opinion' means the opinion of the masses or those whose opinion actually matters; at the time it would have been broadly conceived as the latter, though I think to a modern readership the sense of the former is the more prevalent.
We could opt either to point out that The Times was consistently opposed to the marriage but out of step with the popular press and include the quote reflecting this; include a more accurate reflection of public opinion; or both. Cripipper 17:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a bit in Beaverbrook (p.68): "The Times, Morning Post, Daily Telegraph and Daily Herald were against him [the King] and so was the Kemsley Press, but that was only to be expected. On the other hand, the Express [i.e. Beaverbrook's own paper] and Mail groups were strongly for him"
This is corroborated by Broad, p.188 who says the same thing: "The Times and the Telegraph leading against the King and the Beaverbrook and Rothermere press his chief supporters." DrKiernan 18:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
-Lord Beaverbrook edited by A. J. P. Taylor, The Abdication of King Edward VIII (Hamish Hamilton, London, 1966)
-Lewis Broad, The Abdication (Frederick Muller Ltd., London, 1961) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DrKiernan (talk • contribs) 18:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
  • This we know, but in terms of circulation, I think I am correct in saying that at the time the Daily Mirror alone had a circulation of around 10 times that of the Times, Telegraph and Post. Cripipper 18:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The circulations are given in Ziegler's biography of Edward VIII (p.308), "The Mail and Express spoke up for the King but did not commit themselves on exactly what course they were advocating, the more sober and non-conformist News Chronicle was surprisingly the only major daily newspaper overtly to support a morganatic marriage. [Note then that none supported her as Queen] The King did his sums, and calculated that the papers supporting him had a readership of 12.5 million, while those ranged against him could boast only 8.5 million." This calculation is indeed to be found in the Duke's memoirs in a footnote on page 373. DrKiernan 19:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The footnote also says, "Now I grant that these figures were not necessarily a true reflection of the state of public opinion", which might be read as an admission that public opinion was not on his/their side. DrKiernan 19:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
But once again, we come down to what was 'public opinion'. But to get back to my original point, I just didn't think that a quote from The Times was appropriate for a citation on the state of public opinion. The way the original sentence was written gave the impression that it was reflective of it. Cripipper 19:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening line

Any takers for the below?:

Wallis, The Duchess of Windsor previously Wallis Simpson (born Bessie Wallis Warfield; June 19, 1895 or 1896 – April 24, 1986) was the wife of Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor. She remains a controversial figure in British history.

DrKiernan 15:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Presumably appalled"

Re this:

Free to marry, Wallis and Edward married on 3 June 1937 at Château de Candé, Monts, France, lent to them by Charles Bedaux, who later worked actively for Germany in World War II.[50] No member of the British Royal Family attended the wedding, presumably appalled at the marriage coinciding with George V's birthday.[51]

It's an interesting fact that they married on Edward's father's birthday. But whether that's the reason the Royal Family did not attend the wedding is pure POV speculation. (I doubt it, but that's irrelevant.) We can't introduce such speculation, not even if it's speculation found in a published source. I've edited it out. JackofOz 01:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Domineering manner and abrasive irreverence toward his position appealing"

"By 1934, Edward was irretrievably besotted with Wallis, finding her domineering manner and abrasive irreverence toward his position appealing, and he would remain slavishly dependent on her until he died."

Is this in accordance with Wikipedia's principle of neutrality("slavish")? And should it not require citations of some sort to make such claims?

It seems to have been directly quote from a statement by George V, who said his son was "besotted" with her, and his behavior certainly seems to fit with the word "slavish."FlaviaR 06:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Nazi Sympathizers?"

Quote from the article: "Before, during and after World War II, both the Duke and Duchess of Windsor were suspected of being Nazi sympathisers." What is the source of this? The British Foreign Office issued a formal statement declaring that the Duke never wavered in his loyalty to Great Britain during the war. A statement recorded in the New York Times of August 1st, 1957. No official source that I know of ever suspected or continued to suspect after the war, that the Duke of Windsor nor his wife harbored Nazi sympathies.
Rumors continue to this day from a clique which has never been able to forgive the Duke for his abdication and "abandonment" of his throne and duties.
It is true that in Spain and Portugual of 1940, operatives of Nazi Germany made an attempt to influence and perhaps kidnap the Duke of Windsor and his wife while travelling from occupied France to Lisbon, Portugual. An abbreviated account of this strange affair can be read in "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer, pp 783-792. If no one comes forward with a valid reference to an *official* Nazi connection between the Duke of Windsor or his wife and the Third Reich in one month from the date of this posting, I will return and delete the above line myself. Yanqui9 01:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The Duke of Windsor met with Adolph Hitler in 1937, after his abdication, at Hitlers home in Berchtesgarten. Hitler was impressed at this meeting, and by the fact that in parting, the Duke had said "Heil Hitler", and planned to install Edward as King if he was successful in the war against Britain. On the invasion of France, the Windsors, without passports, fled to Spain. There the Duke demanded that Wallis be recognised as royal before accepting a job. It was to forestall a German kidnap plot, that, after Churchill threatened to court-martial him as a serving naval officer, that he accepted the job as Governor of the Bahamas. Hitler himself stated in October 1941 that the Duke of Windsor "is no enemy of Germany ... when the propper moment comes he will be the only person capable of directing the destiny of England". See Nigel Blundell and Susan Blackhall's "The Fall of the House of Windsor" for details. 203.166.225.25 04:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
A. J. P. Taylor, in "The Origins of the Second World War" reports how in 1936 immediately after Hitler occupied the Rhineland, confidential foreign office documents were being received by the German Foreign Ministry, before they even arrived at the British Embassy in Berlin. The spy was called "Her Doktor" by the British and it was confirmed that the leak was Wallis Simpson, when red herrings were passed to the King and the papers subsequently arrived at the desk of Von Ribbentrop. After that the king was screened from state secrets. John D. Croft 04:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
In the American magazine Liberty, just prior to the attack on Pearl Harbour, whilst in America, the Duke declared America will help Britain more by not engaging in actual fighting, but remaining a keystone for the new world order which will be created when the war is over. There will be a new world order in Europe, whether imposed by Germany or Britain".

It is a sad fact that support for Hitler, and Hitlerian policies, was VERY widespread in the ruling classes in Great Britain (and many other countries) in the thirties. Strong American pro-Hitlerism contributed greatly to keeping America out of the war until Pearl Harbour, for instance. This had little or nothing to do with "loyalty" - in fact quite the reverse - the central plank of Hitlerism is fanatical nationalism. As more became known about what Hitlerism actually meant, and as "Hitler's war" progressed, most former supporters of Hitler (even those who remained "far-right" in general sense) either abandoned their support for "the man" altogether or at least admitted that in some things he went a little too far. Edward and Wallis never forgave the British Government for accepting Edward's abdication (which was almost certainly just a ploy), and looked to Hitler to restore Edward to the throne. He remained a staunch Hitlerite all his days - confiding quite late in life that "there was nothing whatever wrong with Hitler". This is very strong POV, and I would never dream of putting it into the article, but it has been pretty well documented, as mentioned above. "Official" histories may gloss the whole thing - but then what would you expect them to do???? Soundofmusicals 01:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I still havent seen any concrete evidence that the Windsors were suspected nazi sympathisers. Perhaps it should be changed to "Simpson was a suspected nazi sympathiser..."? --Camaeron (talk) 17:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Read the articles. The suspicions are detailed there, e.g. "Lord Caldecote wrote to Winston Churchill just before the couple were sent to the Bahamas, "[the Duke] is well-known to be pro-Nazi and he may become a centre of intrigue."" and "According to the son of William Edmund Ironside, 1st Baron Ironside, the Duchess continued to entertain friends associated with the fascist movement, and leaked details of the French and Belgian defences gleaned from the Duke." DrKiernan (talk) 08:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Windsors is still rather too broader term for my liking. They are still jsut 2 people in one family. Imagine your sister and bro-in law were nazi's: I couldn't state that "insert family name here" were suspected nazi sympathisers. It would be preferable to say "sister and bro-in law" were suspected of being nazi sympathisers, or do you disagree? --Camaeron (talk) 15:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I see now why you objected to the term "Windsors". I meant "Windsors" as in the Duke and Duchess not in terms of the wider family. DrKiernan (talk) 15:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you some much for changing it I really appreciate your flexibility! Keep up the good work on this page! --Camaeron (talk) 16:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion

Citation identifiers/footnote numbers go after punctuation not before: See Wikipedia:Footnotes. Legacy section goes before Titles, etc.: See Wikipedia:WikiProject British Royalty/Style guide. DrKiernan 13:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

What do people think about the "great tragedy" bit? Should we stick with it and the long footnote, or promote the footnote to be the actual text, like so?:

Hearsay, conjecture and politically-motivated propaganda have clouded assessment of the Duchess of Windsor's life, unhelped by her own manipulation of the truth, but there is no document which proves the accusations made against her. In the opinion of her biographers, "she experienced the ultimate fairy tale, becoming the adored favourite of the most glamorous bachelor of his time. The idyll went wrong when, ignoring her pleas, he threw up his position to spend the rest of his life with her."[1] Academics agree that she ascended a precipice that "left her with fewer alternatives than she had anticipated. Somehow she thought that the Establishment could be overcome once [Edward] was king, and she confessed frankly to Aunt Bessie about her "insatiable ambitions"…Trapped by his flight from responsibility into exactly the role she had sought, suddenly she warned him, in a letter, "You and I can only create disaster together"…she predicted to society hostess Sybil Colefax, "two people will suffer" because of "the workings of a system"…Denied dignity, and without anything useful to do, the new Duke of Windsor and his Duchess would be international society's most notorious parasites for a generation, while they thoroughly bored each other…She had thought of him as emotionally a Peter Pan, and of herself an Alice in Wonderland. The book they had written together, however, was a Paradise Lost."[2] The Duchess herself is reported to have summed up her life in a sentence: "You have no idea how hard it is to live out a great romance."[3]

DrKiernan 05:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ciano

In "First marriage" this says she had an affair with Ciano, and became pregnant, but in "Legacy", it says "Although there have been rumours of pregnancy and abortion, most notably involving Count Ciano in China, there is no hard evidence that the Duchess became pregnant by any of her lovers or her three husbands". Which?--Grahamec 02:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

  • It doesn't say she had an affair with Ciano, it says Mrs Miles said that she had an affair with Ciano. There is no documentary proof, just Mrs Miles's gossip. DrKiernan 07:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Fine with me, considering the source (ie someone who actually knew the Duchess in her youth), the careful notation that it was Mrs Miles's opinion/story, and its published reference.Kitchawan 19:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged????

In several places in this article the word "alleged" is used in a totally inane and meaningless fashion. To say that someone is "allegedly" someone else's lover is to imply that this is quite possibly not the case, but that public rumour would have it so. There are a good many instances in this article where "allegedly" is used in the journalistic sense - i.e. "this is a fact I am formally disowning to avoid legal action, but you know and I know..." - may I suggest that this has no place in an encyclopedia article? Either state the fact or (if there really is any doubt) omit it. Soundofmusicals 01:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree; I came to the talk page after reading the beginning of the article on the Main page, since "allegedly" is one of Wikipedia's "words to avoid". What is it doing there? Amit 09:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
They both denied that she was ever his mistress. DrKiernan 09:45, 4 August 2007
The whole article is playing it very coy. This is strange for an article about a deceased person; I wouldn't have thought there were many pro-Wallis Simpson partisans in the world, but perhaps they have all converged in the writing of this article. Not only is she merely "alleged" to have been the Duke of Windsor's mistress (is there any serious room for doubt?), but the evidence for her Nazi sympathies is played down. To take one example, the article says "FBI files compiled in the 1930s also portray her as a possible Nazi sympathiser." But this is very weasily-worded; I looked up some press reports on the files from when they were released in 2003, and the press reports say that the files flatly assert that Simpson was "strongly pro-German." Indeed I understand pretty much all the official sources we have flatly state she was pro-German.
I'm disappointed; I was hoping for better information than this. I would like to balance the slate a little, perhaps starting with this account of the couple's visit to Germany in 1937, which makes eye-opening reading. I'm not sure where to put it; perhaps in the references section?

Valency (talk) 13:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC) (UTC)

Playing it coy? Illegitimate birth? Alcoholic husband? Affair with Don Felipe? Affair with Ciano? Abortion? Mistress? Affair with Trundle? Gold-digger? Nazi? German agent? Affair with Ribbentrop? Leaking secrets? Racist attitudes? "Niggers"? Motivated by revenge? Theft? Insurance fraud? Senile? Uncharitable? Affair with Donahue? Sexual adventures? Criminal exploits? She was really a man? This is supposed to be an encyclopedia article not a collection of crap. I will almost certainly disagree with any attempt to further turn the article into tabloid trash. DrKiernan (talk) 13:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genealogy

A detailed analysis of her ancestry is here. Wjhonson 16:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's up with her nose

In Image:Wallis and Edward.jpg? Kamryn · Talk 04:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that too - she looks like the Dong With the Luminous Nose.PiCo 06:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
yeah, terribly botched nose surgery? or just corrupted foto? or she had a nazi spy cam implanted? yeah, i like that option best. lol --Echosmoke 14:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Look at any photograph from her teen years onward. That was her nose and remained unchanged.Kitchawan 15:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The photo is poor. Look here for a much better photo showing that her nose, was normal. "Wallis" on countyhistorian.com Wjhonson 04:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Someone should really change this photo. At first I thought she was a man wearing a mask-or at least a mustache. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob bobato (talk • contribs) 02:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The current photo does not show Wallis at the height of her fame. I think someone should choose a photo from the 1930's when Wallis was a fashion trend setter. 67.180.4.65 (talk) 06:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WW2 & Atitude in Bahamas

Should the phrase "lazy, thriving niggers" be "lazy, thieving niggers"

As an American she should have know that the N-word was offensive ( There is evidence that it was not so regarded in the UK see nigger ). That being so it would suggest the latter word is more likely. It's unlikely a compliment like "thriving" would be sandwiched between two grossly insulting words.

If anyone has access to "Bloch, The Duchess of Windsor, p.165" could this be checked? Cerddaf 09:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I have checked. The quote is correct as given. DrKiernan 09:41, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Allowance from Queen

Did she really get an "allowance" from the Queen- any more info on this? Astrotrain 14:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

From memory, I think it was half the amount that George VI agreed to pay Edward VIII for his lifetime. DrKiernan 14:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Titles mistake?

How come in the titles section she remains The Duchess of Windsor untill her death? Surely after HRH The Duke of Windsor's death she would have been reduced to the dowager Duchess of Windsor? Surely the fact that nobody inherited the title doesnt affect this? --Camaeron 13:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Not a mistake. There was no other Duchess of Windsor to distinguish her from, since there was no other living Duke of Windsor who might have a wife. There was no need for "dowager". - Nunh-huh 14:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Does this rule apply to all titles of the nobility? --Camaeron 13:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much. I think our article on dowager spells it out. - Nunh-huh 14:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)