Talk:Wall of Shame

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 31 December 2007. The result of the discussion was No concensus (default keep)..

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[edit] Title of this article

The title of this article really should be "Wall of Shame" (in quotation marks) as it is about a term rather than an object or group of objects. I tried to change it but I got a message back that I can't rename the article either because I am not logged in, I am blocked or my account is too new. Neither of the first two are true and I can find no explanation of how old an account needs to be in order for me to be able to rename an article. I was directed to WP:RN where I could "request" the moving/renaming, but the instructions there made my head start to spin, so I gave up. Someone who knows the secret handshake should consider making this change (and see my similar comment on Apartheid Wall.) 6SJ7 23:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I just tried the "move" again and it worked. I am not sure what changed in the past 2 days to allow me to do so. I have not yet edited the pages that linked to this article to eliminate the double-redirects, as I think there is a high probability that someone is going to try to move it back to its original title and I do not want to change the links only to find that I have wasted my time. 6SJ7 15:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I dont know what are you talking about. The walls are objects made of stone, steel and electronic gear, what do you mean with "they are not objects"? You are right, someone will come and will move your quotations away, simple because you are wrong. Boninho 15:49, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
They are indeed objects, but none of them (at least none of the walls/barriers/etc. mentioned in the article) are called the "Wall of Shame." The article is about a term that some people apply to some or all of these objects, not about the objects themselves. Personally I do not see why this is a separate article, it could have been a sentence in the "Separation barrier" article, saying "Some people call some of these barriers "walls of shame." But my philosophy of what is a valid encyclopedia article apparently is not the prevailing view on Wikipedia. I can, however, try to get an article name to be correct. 6SJ7 17:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Wrong again! Who gave the names? It is said clearly that Kennedy, Chirac and some others top leaders (quoted!) and many millons worldwide call these walls as such. Are you denying it? please overwhelm yourself with a quick google search! It is also VERY CLEARLY stated that builders and supporters do not call them as such and actively campaign for them NOT to be called as "walls of shame", including attempts to delete or hide all references to them. In the article, the two views are included and explained. Your point of view is very respectable, but I am afraid that the wikipedia in not about your point of view alone. If you mean that no one of the builders made an opening ceremony with a bottle of champagne naming them "Wall of Shame", then you are absolutely right but think twice (please do it honestly) how many things are commonly known with names different than the official! Boninho 15:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I forgot about the list. How about quotation marks in titles such as Third world, Iron curtain, Hall of fame, America, Apartheid, Slavery, Racism, etc?. Would you go to ALL of them and similars changing names and links? Please have a look to this exhibition [1] Cheers Boninho 16:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • This article's correct title is Wall of Shame, as parentheses are used to disambiguate between similarly-named articles, not to clarify the context of an article topic's usage. The first sentence of the article, not the title, should be what makes the subject matter clear. -Silence 18:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Panama Canal Fence of Shame

The wall separating the Panama Canal Zone from the rest of Panama was referred to as a "fence of shame." See Martyrs' Day. -- TheMightyQuill 09:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic link! great contribution! Cheers. Boninho 16:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Use of Hadrian's Wall

I don't believe that anyone really knows the precise reasons for Hadrian's Wall as the historical record surrounding the wall is quite sparse. The only reasoning for building the wall lays behind historical speculation based on extremely limited evidence. I think that it's inappropriate to state that it was built to keep out invaders. There are a great number of theories on why Hadrian ordered the building of the wall. --Strothra 04:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hadrian's Wall page would be the ideal place to discuss the evidence you mention. Boninho 19:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
In fact, I notice that the Hadrian's Wall article is fairly specific about the reasons for its construction, and that all of the reasons (except for one, arguably, that being the need to physically define the border) involve keeping out invaders from the north. 6SJ7 21:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning

I moved here the following sign since it is inadecuate to highlite in such way the personal vision of what this article should talk about. In any case, the article as it is today referrs to what the users mention in the ugly sign.Boninho 17:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC) {{cleanup-cliche|brick-and-mortar walls dividing geographical entities: "wall of shame" can also be used for a non-dividing wall, virtual or real, where the ''surface'' is used to collect or advertise shameful content, examples: [http://www.mugglenet.com/wallofshame.shtml] - [http://www.neopets.com/wallofshame.phtml]; also layout-wise the article should be improved, suggesting subdivisions}}

Moving this template to the talk page is incorrect according to WP:TM/CLEAN, which specifically says the tag goes on the article page and not the talk page. However, since you are questioning whether the tag is currently appropriate, and I did not place the tag, I will leave it for those who did, and/or other editors, to determine whether the tag should be placed back on the article page. 6SJ7 17:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, someone did. 6SJ7 18:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks very much for bringing this to my attention. Boninho 23:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Bringing back the ugly tag with your strong and unpolite statement will not improve the article. If you are truly interested in improving it, please be my guest and start doing it. Will you? Making arrogant and sound statements in the cleaning tag that you know goes highlighted and in the very top of the article is a very dirty trick. Please start cleaning... Boninho 23:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Please have also in mind that the cleaning tag says "Please discuss this issue on the talk page" and not in the tag itself. It is true that the tag gives some space to specify what the cleaning is about, but in my opinion you are exaggerating this freedom since it appears that you use the tag as your private talk-page. Boninho 23:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes on rewrite

There are two general meanings to "wall of shame" covered in the article, and I moved an explanation to the intro, for clarity.

Much of the article focused on physical walls. Some of the historical background wasn't really relevant to the topic of the article, so I moved it elsewhere. Some of the content seemed to be trying to prove the point that modern barriers are only used as a means of civilian control, and this seemed a little POV and I presume it was original research because there were no references.

I removed this claim:

The last wall to be actually engaged in combat, as a defense measure, was Danevirke in the Denmark-German border, in the southern Jutland during the Danish-Prussian war of 1864, albeit with no success.

because I could think of at least one possible counterexample. (The Israeli West Bank barrier could be construed as an example of a defensive wall, since it does have a military purpose (to prevent suicide bombings and other attacks inside Israel). This does not to say there might not be other reasons for its constructions, or that it doesn't have effects on civilians.) But the claim is rather strong, and is the sort of thing that definitely needs a reference to a reliable source if it's to be included.

[edit] Title capitalization

Shouldn't the title of this article be "Wall of shame"? Wikipedia uses downcase style, which only capitalizes the first word, unless otherwise required by English capitalization rules. "Wall of shame" is not a proper noun; it refers to the generic phenomemon, not any particular wall. -- Beland 02:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)