Talk:Wales national rugby union team

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	Wales national rugby union team is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 7, 2007 Good article nominee Listed November 18, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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This article uses British English dialect and spelling. Some terms that are used in it differ from, or are not used in, American English. For more information, see American and British English differences. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

To-do:

edit · history · watch · refresh

Pending tasks: Copy-edit and reference history section: Early years (1881 - 1919) Post-war years (1920 - 1968) Second 'Golden Age' (1969 - 1982) Modern era (1983 - present) Expand and reference strip Reference support Expand and reference grounds Record: Reference Six Nations Reference World Cup Add intro on world rankings to Overall section Delist notable players Add intro prose to coaches Expand lead as per WP:LEAD Resources rugby football history International rugby hall of fame website World ranking archive

Contents 1 Older entries 2 Logo 3 Notable players 3.1 Past players (in Talk:Australia national rugby union team) 4 Flags 5 More images 6 Wales national rugby union team (version française) 7 Australia winning the Grand Slam? 8 Succesion box 9 Good article review 10 Succession box discussion 11 Coaches

[edit] Older entries

"The Welsh supporters have a reputation for being amongst the most fanatical in the rugby union world, making the Millennium Stadium, the team's home ground, a particularly intimidating place."

The above is a matter of opinion....The millennium stadium isn't in the least bit intimidating - especially if you've ever been to an English sports stadium, where fans like to boo the opposing team. I've therefore removed it.Trystan Morris-Davies 15:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't write it, but England at least do find Wales a difficult place to play rugby, which is why they tend to stay overnight in Bristol and simply drive to Cardiff on the day of the match and return immediately afterwards. I think there is a certain amount of truth to it.GordyB 16:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

I think Image:Wru logo.jpg should be used instead of Image:Wru logo.png, which was swapped around recently. The current version, which is a little transparent, is not really used anywhere else, notably the WRU website...Cvene64 12:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable players

Was thinking that the list of notable players is quite large. Although it's good to have some names on there I think a large list doesn't add much useful content to the article (see WP:LIST). I think there should be some common criteria for inclusion that reduces the size of the list. Also at the top of the section there could be a link to the category of Welsh Rugby Players. I think the one universal criteria should be that there is an article of more then stub quality (start, B-class, GA class or FA class) on the player. Other then that they could be:

• Inductee into IRB hall of fame
• A Captain
• To have played more then 50 tests?
• Captained Lions

Any other suggestions? - Shudda ^talk 10:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

See criteria posted on the talk pages of All Blacks and Australia national rugby union team.GordyB 20:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I was thinking something along those lines. Thought I would post something up here before going ahead and doing it though. If you look at the English teams article they refuse to change their criteria. Didn't want any arguments. However I'll do as per above as there doesn't seem to be any opposition. - Shudda ^talk 04:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we should have a universal criteria for all teams. With reference to the England page, the disagreement was whether players that currently lack articles should be deleted. IMO they should not be.GordyB 18:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Other useful criteria would seem to be record holders in various categories (different forms of scoring, most appearances in each position), captains during notable periods, other "star" players during those periods, and those who went on multiple Lions tours, or who were noteworthy poachees of RL. Lions captain would be an unfortunate category, as many of those were not noteworthy players.

Percy Bush, Ray Cale don't have many appearances, they are not Notable players. Do you agree ? Ddfree 14:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with that. They may have been great players for their clubs, but not for the national team. - PeeJay 15:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I dont think a list of 50 or more Notable players in the history of the team (100 years) is a problem and there are certainly names in the current list that younger readers would not be aware of. The risk of a short list is that modern day players take preference, partly because the team plays more international matches each season than in the past which makes it much easier to accumulate caps/points. I'd suggest a list of players over 50 caps would be useful and a separate list of Other Notable players.

[edit] Past players (in Talk:Australia national rugby union team)

What type of criteria is being used to determine who goes in this list? Is there any at all? If not, I think we should discuss what should constitute a players notability for inclusion. I don't really have any huge problems with it at all, I just think we should come up with some sort of set of guidelines..yeah?Narrasawa 10:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

When I started editing Wikipedia, there were only a few national team pages which were little more than stubs. I tried to bring them up to a reasonable standard as quickly as possible and give them a common layout. Hence the 'famous / notable players' sections were created by cannablising an existing list of famous players (List of footballers (Rugby Union)), I then added players that were in the IRB hall of fame. Since then other players have been added. The lists are not complete and tend to be biased towards the modern era.

There was a proposed criteria list on the Talk:All Blacks page which I am re-posting

Some suggestions for criteria, in order of importance:

• Those with widespread international media coverage (ie Jonah)
• Those in the International Rugby Hall of Fame
• Those who have notable achievements outside of rugby (eg as an MP or in business)
• Those awarded honours (MNZM or MBE, or if that includes too many players then ONZM or OBE)
• Those who played in most tests over a long period (8 years?)

I would add involvement in a major incident or 50+ caps.GordyB 13:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This has now been changed so that it is consistent with All Blacks and France national rugby union team articles which are both Featured Articles. The criteria they use is International Rugby Hall of Fame inductees. Now the section is prose with a brief (two to three sentences) on each member. There are nine from Wales so that is quite a few. Any comments let me know, but I know that this is not considered WP:OR as when the France article went through WP:FAC we had a list of ten players. There were objections and it was changed. So this way will avoid that. - Shudde ^talk 10:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

Is there any purpose in using the flag to note that the players in the squad are Welsh? If we want to be pedantic then surely the flags of England, New Zealand and Australia would be better for Charvis, Parker an Cockbain, but if we are saying that those three are Welsh by virtue of them being in the Wales squad, the flags are redundant are they not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blogdroed (talk • contribs) 16:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree, there's no point using flags for players in national squads.GordyB 17:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That template is supposed to be for club/provinces. Using it on a national team is pretty pointless. Would be better to follow the All Blacks, Irish and English pages, which use a different style. Cvene64 01:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any point either jojo 15:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jojonesey (talk • contribs)

[edit] More images

There is a lack of photos in Wikipedia Commons... So if you're a welsh contributor or if you see some Wales national rugby union team's match, please take some photos and the rights to put them in Commons to better Welsh footballer articles and Wales national rugby union team's article... thanks a lot and good work... Many pleasure... Specially for the period 1920-1990 Ddfree 09:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wales national rugby union team (version française)

Nobody wants (or is able) to better this article in order to make a featured article...

• The article in french language is now nominated for a featured article ( « Article de qualité » )

• ... And it should be easier if the english article is better... And it is easier to better english article with the help of french model... in order to better rugby union in Wikipedia... Ddfree 09:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• The article in french language is now a featured article. Ddfree 11:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australia winning the Grand Slam?

I come from Wales and I want to know what this buisiness of Australia winning the Grand Slam in the Five Nations Tournament is about. As far as I know, the Five Nations were Wales, England, Scotland, Ireland and France. Please tell me if I'm wrong!!! jojo 15:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you've mis-read the paragraph. Australia won the grand slam on their tour of the UK and Ireland, i.e. they beat England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland in the same tour. - PeeJay 16:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"Modern era (1983–present)

... Australia defeated Wales 28–9 at Cardiff Arms Park. At the time, this was the most points scored against Wales at Cardiff, and the first time they conceded a push-over try there; Australia went on to win their first Grand Slam.[44]"

Incorrect. Scotland beat Wales 18-34 in the 1982 Five Nations championship. Further, the [44] link takes you to 'Rugby Milestones', granted, but there's nothing on the page about Australia's Grand Slam tour in 1984. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anselm53 (talk • contribs) 19:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Succesion box

Removed again. The reason being that it doesn't fit. If you are prepared to do the immense amount of work that would make it work properly then go ahead but otherwise don't add it please. Currently it is not a succession box at all because it has not been added to England or France.GordyB 10:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

If you want to add it, the succession box is, I think, as below. The full details are on the England/France/Ireland/Scotland pages, but as smaller versions have previously been removed from this page, I will leave it up to others to add. KeithW (talk) 16:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sporting positions
Preceded by 1892 England	Home Nations Champions 1893	Succeeded by 1894 Ireland
Preceded by 1899 Ireland	Home Nations Champions 1900	Succeeded by 1901 Scotland
Preceded by 1901 Scotland	Home Nations Champions 1902	Succeeded by 1903 Scotland
Preceded by 1904 Scotland	Home Nations Champions 1905	Succeeded by 1906 Ireland Wales
Preceded by 1905 Wales	Home Nations Champions Joint Champions: Wales and Ireland 1906	Succeeded by 1907 Scotland
Preceded by 1907 Scotland	Home Nations Champions 1908, 1909	Succeeded by 1910 England
Preceded by 1910 England	Five Nations Champions 1911	Succeeded by 1912 England Ireland
Preceded by 1914 England	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: England, Scotland and Wales 1920	Succeeded by 1921 England
Preceded by 1921 England	Five Nations Champions 1922	Succeeded by 1923 England
Preceded by 1930 England	Five Nations Champions 1931	Succeeded by 1932 England Ireland Wales
Preceded by 1931 Wales	Home Nations Champions Joint Champions: England, Ireland and Wales 1932	Succeeded by 1933 Scotland
Preceded by 1935 Ireland	Home Nations Champions 1936	Succeeded by 1937 England
Preceded by 1938 Scotland	Home Nations Champions Joint Champions: England, Ireland and Wales 1939	Succeeded by 1947 England Wales
Preceded by 1939 England Ireland Wales	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: England and Wales 1947	Succeeded by 1948 Ireland
Preceded by 1949 Ireland	Five Nations Champions 1950	Succeeded by 1951 Ireland
Preceded by 1951 Ireland	Five Nations Champions 1952	Succeeded by 1953 England
Preceded by 1953 England	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: England , France and Wales 1954	Succeeded by 1955 France Wales
Preceded by 1954 England France Wales	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: France and Wales 1955	Succeeded by 1956 Wales
Preceded by 1955 France Wales	Five Nations Champions 1956	Succeeded by 1957 England
Preceded by 1963 England	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: Scotland and Wales 1964	Succeeded by 1965 Wales
Preceded by 1964 Scotland Wales	Five Nations Champions 1965, 1966	Succeeded by 1967 France
Preceded by 1968 France	Five Nations Champions 1969	Succeeded by 1970 France Wales
Preceded by 1969 Wales	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: France and Wales 1970	Succeeded by 1971 Wales
Preceded by 1970 France Wales	Five Nations Champions 1971	Succeeded by 1973 England France Ireland Scotland Wales
Preceded by 1971 Wales	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: England, France, Ireland, Scotland and Wales 1973	Succeeded by 1974 Ireland
Preceded by 1974 Ireland	Five Nations Champions 1975, 1976	Succeeded by 1977 France
Preceded by 1977 France	Five Nations Champions 1978, 1979	Succeeded by 1980 England
Preceded by 1987 France	Five Nations Champions Joint Champions: France and Wales 1988	Succeeded by 1989 France
Preceded by 1993 France	Five Nations Champions 1994	Succeeded by 1995 England
Preceded by 2004 France	Six Nations Champions 2005	Succeeded by 2006 France

[edit] Good article review

I have assessed this article for Good Article status, and have decided to put it on hold for a week. It almost meets the Good Article criteria, but there are a few minor improvements that need to be made. If these are corrected, then it can be promoted to GA status.

• Is it well written? Mostly, but there are some problematic areas:
  • Editorialising in the lead. 'This was a major shock... the disappointing performance...' Unless reliable sources can be provided describing the outcome of the 2007 World Cup in such ways, this is non-neutral language and ought to be avoided.
    • I've removed this, no need for it in lead anyhow. - Shudde ^talk 03:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Some use of jargon. This is not a major problem, especially since anyone reading this article is likely to know about rugby, but it should still be avoided where possible. For example, the line 'a Six Nations Grand Slam in 2005' in the lead could easily be expanded to 'achieved a Six Nations Grand Slam in 2005 by beating all their opponents'.
    • Grand Slam is wiki-linked, do i still need to change this? - Shudde ^talk 03:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • This section on the 2007 World Cup should be improved and expanded: "In the 2007 Rugby World Cup Wales once again failed to achieve, getting knocked out in the pool stages of the competition. Another south pacific defeat this time to Fiji. Subsequently the welsh coach Gareth Jenkins was sacked. Wales are still looking for a head coach."
    • Done. - Shudde ^talk 03:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The writing in the 'World Cup' subsection is better, but this line is again editorialising: "Ironically, once more they scored more tries than their opponents." Also, the term 'the most recent World Cup' should be replaced by 'the 2007 World Cup', so it will remain true in future.
    • Done. - Shudde ^talk 03:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
• Is it factually accurate and verifiable? Again, mostly. This article has plenty of references to reliable sources, but they are missing in a few areas:
  • There are no references provided for Wales' performance in the 2007 World Cup, and for Gareth Jenkins' subsequent resignation. These should be easy to find, but it needs to be done.
    • Done. - Shudde ^talk 03:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • In the 'notable players' section: 'Widely regarded as the greatest rugby union player of all time' needs a specific citation to someone calling Gareth Edwards the greatest player of all time, or should be removed as non-neutral.
    • Believe it or not this is actually a non-controversial statement. He is widely regarded as the greatest player of all time. I've not seen an all time World XV without him in it. The first citation (number 90 at the moment, url: [1]) has Cliff Morgan saying "The greatest rugby player ever born, in any position, anywhere in the world.". Hopefully that is ok, although if you'd like another I can dig one up. - Shudde ^talk 03:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• Is it broad in its coverage? Yes, definitely. Easy pass here.

• Is it neutral? Yes, apart from the few lines already mentioned.

• Is it stable? Yes - there are no ongoing edit wars over this page.

• Is it well illustrated? Yes. More pictures are always appreciated, but the current number and quality of illustrations is fine.

Overall: On hold for a week until these improvements are made. If they are, it should pass. Terraxos 15:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. A lot of those problems are about the 2007 Rugby World Cup material. The article was actually nominated before the tournament had finished (was nominated on 26 September) so that material has been added since. I should have kept a closer eye on it anyhow. I think I've addressed all your problems. Let me know if you want more done. - Shudde ^talk 03:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright then, time for an update:

• Is it well written? Yes, now changes have been made.
• Is it accurate and verifiable? Yes.
• Is it broad in its coverage? Yes.
• Is it neutral? Yes.
• Is it stable? Yes - the only recent reverts have been to remove blatant vandalism.
• Is it illustrated? Yes, to a sufficient level.

Overall, this article now meets the Good Article criteria. (Sorry for not saying more here, but my main points about the article were made above.) Congratulations to everyone who has added to it, and happy editing in future! Terraxos 02:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Succession box discussion

A discussion has been started about the breadth and formatting of succession boxes for national rugby union teams at WikiProject Rugby union. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Succession boxes. - Shudde ^talk 22:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coaches

I don't think a comprehensive list of coaches is needed at all. The head coach is listed, who cares who the physiotherapist and nutritionist are? Let us put it this way, would they warrant there own article on wikipedia? My guess is no. Gatland is the head coach, and there are no co-coaches appointments. I have removed this for now, certainly at the FAC there was no complaint's that the misc staff were not included, and it's the same at the other national teams that have passed through an FAC. - Shudde ^talk 01:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)