Talk:Waldensians
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[edit] Doctrine
I deleted this statement:
- Despite this claim, there were no substantive differences in the doctrine of the Waldensians and the Church.
Many, both Catholics and Protestants, seem to agree that the Waldensians were against pedobaptism. Some of their 13th century accusers say they were opposed to or dropped many other sacraments as well. This, combined with their disregard for ecclesiastical authority, looks like some substantive doctrinal differences, in both their ecclesiology and in their sacramental theology. Wesley 17:02 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)
Having read the article, I am still confused about Waldensian doctrine. The main doctrinal information I found was buried under one of the other subheadings. Might I suggest a reorganization of the article, to have an early subheading titled "Doctrines and Practices" or something like that? The current structure is devoted mostly to history and origins which, in my mind, is fine but should incorporate a summation of their key beliefs.
Compare the article on "Lollards" to see an example of what I am suggesting. --Bonbga 17:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Protestant
The Waldensians Or Vaudois are not Protestant. They were never apart of the Catholic church to protest it. Read "Cross and Crown" put out by Local Bible Publishers[1]. It gives the beginning of the Catholic Church as well as the Vaudois.
- They do are Protestant. Check their official site. --Fertuno 01:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Some modern groups associate as protestant but the article is (mainly) about the historical -- it can be said they are protestant in the "Modern" section but not in the lead section should be left un-said. -- Stbalbach 15:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- Though the root statement here seems to be motivated by a particularly Baptist reading of the Waldensians, the author is accidentially correct. The Waldensians cannot be accurately described as Protestant, for the Waldensian movement originates in the 13th century, a full three centuries before the beginning of the Protestant Reformation in the early 16th century. Valkyryn 22:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- I would further dispute the citation to the Mennonite Encyclopedia, as not being a serious scholarly work. The Mennonites are part of the Anabaptist tradition, widely regarded as heretical by both Protestants and Catholics during the Reformation. The Anabaptists considered themselves distinct from both Protestantism and Catholicism, and as far as I know continue to observe this distinction. This is not an unbiased, reliable, scholarly source of the kind which should be supporting a Wikipedia article. As this is the only citation to the claim that the Waldensians are Protestant evangelicals, I have modified the introduction to indicate a more balanced approach. Valkyryn 22:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no denying that the Waldensians self identify as Protestants. I reworked. I also don't think it is fair to judge a source based off of it title. Are you famillar with the work? -- SECisek 08:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Modern Waldensians consider themselves Protestant, but the historical origins of the movement predate Protestantism by several centuries. My version was the more accurate: they are a group that came before Protestantism which has since merged with Protestantism. Your reintroduction of the Mennonite source is noted and rejected. Citations to any particular tradition's encyclopedia are almost automatically biased. Furthermore, the Waldensians aren't Mennonites. The Mennonites have a vested theological interest in identifying themselves with the Waldensians, which is more reason to not base a Wikipedia article on such a source. The Catholic Encyclopedia is similarly biased. Valkyryn (talk) 13:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Modern Waldensians
I recall seeing some church labelled Waldensian in Italy (I think). Are you sure they disappeared? -- Error
- They certainly have not disappeared. If no one objects, and if no one pre-empts me, then in August I intend to recast at least the beginning of this article so that it describes a current denomination with an interesting history rather than a historical curiosity. Grafen 23:14, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
- I'd be grateful to Grafen. The current article is a hodge podge of often overlapping comments that often have less credible sources. Like all of us, I'm sure, I'm trying to patch when I have time, but I'm afraid it is quite untidy at present. It requires some work to read, but the Cameron book is the most precise and scholarly work. That kind of research (not abstracts that are based upon a larger meta-narrative of Christian history), would be most useful if you care to trace the origins toward the modern. Once we arrive in the modern, however, I think we would do best to let the Waldensians speak for themselves - from their own sources - as much as possible. DiscoverLife
DiscoverLife, the comment you replied is two years old, but it is still true. I have been in a struggle to throw out much POV nonsense from this article and cite as much as I can. If you have established a fact from another source, New Advent makes for easy citing since it is public domain and on the internet, but it almost 100 years old and written with a strong POV that few people hold anymore and is improper for wiki most of the time.
If you think the article needs help now, you should have seen it a week ago. I can't agree more that this article needs MUCH more info on the modern Church and I restructered it recently to try to encourage development in that direction. I also agree it should be cited from Waldensian sources if possible. I look forward to seeing more progress here. Thank you for your help. -- SECisek 05:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your work Secisek. I'll keep chipping away at it as I have time. I'm new to framing Wikipedia material, so your expertise is welcome. - I'll try to read the date of posts more carefully in the future! -- DiscoverLife 22:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] User comments
User:Dugaru left the following comment under the "Waldensian Origin Story" section. Moved to here. --Stbalbach 01:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
- I consider myself a Waldense in at least an ethnic sense (and am a descendant of the Valdese group), but I don't believe that the sect existed since the time of the apostles. Instead, I agree with the view that the movement was started by Waldo. Thus, I think it might be better to say, in this section and throughout the article, that "some Waldenses claim...."
- For an even more comprehensive treatment, it might also be pointed out that some non-Waldenses (e.g., adherents of Baptist Successionism) believe in this apostolic succession (see the Baptist successionism entry in Wikipedia). Other Baptists, including some theologians, strongly argue otherwise.
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- Baptist Successionism? What's the actual title of the article? Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- Got it now; it's Baptist successionism with a small s. The Wikipedia search engine's case sensitivity is one of its more annoying features.—Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- Baptist Successionism? What's the actual title of the article? Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Biblical heresy?
...condemned for translating literally parts of the Bible which were deemed heretical by the Church.
This is startling. I was not aware that the Church ever regarded any part of the Bible as heretical.—Copey 2 05:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Which church? Lutherans once regarded the Epistle of James as possibly being heretical (because it says faith without works is dead). The Church also once considered Revelations as heresy, originally placing the Shepherd of Hermas in its place. The wording above looks a little odd - like it was translated from some other language - it could be that they meant to write ...condemned for translating parts of the Bible literally, an act which was deemed heretical by the church. Clinkophonist 19:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Not so odd as to mark the writer as a non-native speaker, I think. Literal translation of parts of the Bible might be an issue; translating non-canonical books and including them in scripture is another; it's this conflation of the two notions that is difficult to fathom. If the writer reads this, could he/she please rewrite this section more clearly?
Okay, yes, Eusebius regarded 2 Peter as spurious and the jury was still out on Revelation (NB, no final -s). And yes, Luther regarded James as a right strawy epistle. But neither of these views applies to the 12th century. I believe some sections of the ancient church regarded the Shepherd as scripture, but I don't believe this was ever a mainstream view. I certainly can't see in what meaningful sense it could have been in the "place" of Revelation. Do you mean it was at the end of the NT? – Copey 2 13:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Calling something in disagreement "heresy" is also a pretty strong word. This should be investigated, and removed until then. [Paraforce]
With regards to the biblical translations. Are you sure there is not some confusion with the Poor men of Metz, a group in France who translated biblical texts during the late 12th century? The Waldnes (or Poor Men of Lyons) have not, to my knowlege, produced a venacularised bible.
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- Nope, the Waldensians translated the Latin Vulgate into Provençal. According to some legends Valdo hired a monk to accoplish this task. There are some manuscripts left, usually containing the New Testament, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastic, Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, in Dublin, Grenoble, Lyon, Geneve, Paris. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leonardo Alves (talk • contribs) 16:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
- The Bible was translated in 1535 by Pierre Olivetan, cousin of John Calvin. An old reprint has the following information - Olivetan, Pierre Robert [Reimpr. ... Neuchâtel en 1535]. Torino. Meynier. 1986. However, the editor of Claudiana publishing house in Torino showed me a 2006 reprint celebrating the translation at the Synod gathering in Torre Pellice. I don't have time to run down the details here, unfortunately. DiscoverLife 22:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Nope, the Waldensians translated the Latin Vulgate into Provençal. According to some legends Valdo hired a monk to accoplish this task. There are some manuscripts left, usually containing the New Testament, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastic, Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus, in Dublin, Grenoble, Lyon, Geneve, Paris. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leonardo Alves (talk • contribs) 16:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] References?
I take it that some of the "external links" have actually been used as references. It would be very nice to have a clue of what came from where. I am specifically asking for a citation for the "Old Waldensian Church of Anabaptists". I cannot find any online mention independent of Wikipedia, so presumably a print source was used and should be named. - Jmabel | Talk 01:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- I too wish to query why this article has no References section. This is my first visit to the page, prompted by my current reading of History of the Waldenses by J. A. Wylie. DFH 11:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- There is an article about the Waldensians on the website of the Anabaptist Network.[2] DFH 12:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Settled in Boston?
The gift shop of the Old North Church in Boston has a sign at the back that says it was originally a chapel/church for a group of German Waldensians who settled in Boston. There's a statue of Saint Francis there, which I was surprised to see anywhere other than a Catholic Church, but I guess Waldo admired Francis and his teachings. I don't remember exactly what the sign said, but anyone who could confirm this coulod add Boston as a settling place for Waldensians.
- Yes, there was a few Waldensian of Rhenish and Hugenot extraction that settled in Boston in the pre-Revolutionary times. Also, one of the aleged reason for Ursuline Convent Riots was that a child of an Italian Waldensian was abducted and baptized as a Catholic by Italian Catholic nuns, this fact was disputed even at that time. The Waldensians in Boston never established a separated congregation for them, but joined the local protestant churches or Italian congregations (Presbyterian, Methodist, Brethren, Pentecostal). Today, there still are two congregations worshipping in the Italian way in Metro Boston, as the last remains of the Italian Waldense-Protestantism in the City on a Hill. One of them worshipped for more than eighty years on 242 Cambridge St, on the heart of the Little Italy in the Beacon Hill. For more information read the "Protestant ministry to Italian people in Massachusetts" by William John Villaume, a Bostonian Waldensian.--Leonardo Alves 15:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge with Vaudoir?
In cleaning up Category:Christianity I came across Vaudoir, which seems to cover substantially the same topic as this article, with a slightly differing subset of details. -choster 20:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- The merger would be good, but the term vaudoir is not listed in English, French or Provençal dictionaries. I think the author meant to say vaudois.
Agree: No reason not to combine. (I'm a doctoral student in ministry)--LanceHaverkamp 22:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Vaudois ordinarily refers to dissenting Christians that lived in the Cottian alps that straddle modern day France and Italy. Descendants of these people generally participate as Waldensians in Italy and abroad and claim the historic valleys as the historic homeland of their families.
Today Waldensians derive from all regions of Italy and the Rio de la Plata region of South America. Even more, there are many Waldensian immigrants who have found a spiritual home in Presbyterian and other Reformed Protestant churches of North America.
It seems to me that Vaudois would be a useful stand alone subject that is somehow linked from the Waldensian page. A simple merge would miss some of the distinctions.
I am a member of the American Waldensian Society ( http://www.waldensian.org/ ).
Agree I disagree with the above commentator no distinction is made in French- Vaudois is just the French word for Waldensians. It is silly to have two articles for things that are the same. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 01:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] History in French
There seems to be a large history in French here http://www.regard.eu.org/Livres.11/Janavel/01.html which seems to contain lots of information which is not found here.
- The index page is here http://www.regard.eu.org/Livres.11/Janavel/ it is a biography of Josué Janavel. I can see absolutely no reason why to have a separate page of Vaudois when Vaudois is just the French word for Waldensians. These pages should be merged. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 01:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Waldensians & Calvinism?
Why is this article deemed to be within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Calvinism ? The Waldenses predate the Reformation. DFH 11:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Evidently, the history of the Vaudois/Waldenses includes significant interaction with the later Calvinist movement, to the point where many Waldensian groups eventually came to be counted among the ranks of the Calvinists in various parts of Europe and later in early America. This need not imply that Waldensian = Calvinist, only that the histories of each movement have included "cross pollination" with the other to a notable degree. Furthermore, the tone used by John Calvin himself in his prefactory letter to Francis I of France in his magnum opus [[The Institutes of the Christian Religion]], may be taken to reflect a belief by the author that his critique of certain current trends and dogmas in the Roman Church (and the same critique from his Protestant colleagues) was hardly novel and without pedigree. This is not elaborated upon in his text, but it would be rather absurd to think that a learned man like Calvin -- a Picard by birth who eventually settled in Geneva -- would not have had at least some general knowledge of the Waldenses and their history. Thus one can conclude that an encyclopaedic treatment of Calvinism should include at least passing reference to the pre-Reformation Waldensian movement of France, Switzerland, Italy, et al. Abdiel standing 16:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sight seeing
The Protestant Alliance organizes yearly trips to the Waldensian Valleys with good lectures and sight seeing. (tel +44 (0)1525 712348, 77 Ampthill Road, Flitwick, Bedfordshire, UK) DFH 13:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Problem with Humiliati and with Lombards
- ‘They absorbed a number of other groups including the Humiliati and had their own internal split and reformation with the Lombards.’
I’m moving the sentence here because I can’t make sense of it in a couple of ways. The context was the early thirteenth century, but the Humiliati were still around at the Catholic Reformation, if our article on them is to be trusted. Secondly I can’t quite work out what the second part of the sentence is intended to mean. Thirdly what do we mean by thirteenth-century Lombards? Something to do with the Lombard League could definitely make sense, but it needs clarifying. —Ian Spackman 02:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Catholic Encyclopedia?
This data is not accurate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians#Historical_organization
It comes from a Catholic encyclopedia. The Catholic church whiped out millions of Waldensians during the Inquisition. They should not be allowed to continue to malign them making them look like cults.
Wow.
Check out these videos on this page: http://www.theloudcry.net/arrabito.html The ones called: "Lost Pages of Christianity", parts 1, 2, and 3.
Rush4hire 07:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- I hardly think this article portrays them as a cult. You removed the citations from the Catholic Encyclopedia in the paragraph metioned above with out disputing any of the facts cited. This is confusing. Great care must be taken when citing the Catholic Encyclopedia to avoid outdated or non-NPOV material. I don't know that any of the points cited with the Catholic Encyclopedia thus far are contentious. If they are, dispute them point by point and we can find a diferent source for them, or revise as needed. As for the 7th day sabbath, the citation you provided was from a work of Ellen G. White published by the company that she set up herself in her will. Self-published sources are HIGHLY dubious and not permitted in WP. If you can find a third party source that agrees, please cite. Waldensians are not confined to the history books, but are very much still around today, esp. in the Piedmont, and they do NOT practice a 7th day sabbath as your addition suggests. If they did at one time, when did they stop? Best, SECisek 08:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 7th day sabbath
Also, please note that for NPOV purposes, the opinion of Ellen G. White on the 7th day sabbath is already clearly stated in the Later history section. -- SECisek 08:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] La Nobla Leçon
This misunderstanding about the dating of the La Nobla Leçon is due to two lines in the poem where it reads:
- Ben ha mil e<<erased>> cent an compli entierment
- Que fo scripta l'ora car sen al derier temp.
The French philologist François Juste Marie Raynouard was the first (and only person) to attribute this document to year 1100 based on those lines. But, Henry Bradshaw decided to verify himself this documents, and lo! On the gap left by the erased part, one can still read with help of a magnifier:
- Ben ha mil e CCCC cent an compli entierment
- Que fo scripta l'ora car sen al derier temp.
The CCCC stands for 400, and the caligraphy matches with the symbol elswhere in the document. In context, this number is not a dating for the poem, but a prophetic warning. Also, later copies of this poem always read 1400. You can see with your own eyes in microfiche at the IDC
I hope it has been settled now.
--Leonardo Alves 16:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
