Talk:Wagner controversies

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Contents 1 Translation of "Judentum" 2 Wagner as National emblem 3 Original research 4 Common Misunderstanding of the Plot of Der Ring

[edit] Translation of "Judentum"

I strongly feel that the German word "Judentum" should generally be translated in to "Judaism," as is traditional, and not into "Jewry." The truth is that the word generally refers in German to Judaism as a whole, not just to the "Jewry" with its much more restricted sense in English, which I believe is quite misleading. The proposition that "Judaismus" is the German word for "Judaism" not "Judentum" must be some error or a ludicrous attempt at being PC - the word is in comparison almost never used and may not have even existed during Wagner's lifetime for all I know - and you can take as proof of this the fact that the wikipedia article on Judaism in German is titled "Judentum" not "Judaismus." Furthermore, if the word "Judaismus" is used at all it refers very specifically to the religious practices of the Jewish people, which is certainly NOT what Wagner was concerned with. All the translators of Das Judentum in der Musik into English have used the word "Judaism" not "Jewry," and while some PC-ifying maniac has desperately re-tranlated even the link to that translation according to his own whims, I propose that this was both unnecessary and misleading and that all such translations should be reverted. (Eeesh 12:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC))

My copy of the Collins English Dictionary has; Judaism "1. the religion of the Jews, 2. the religious and cultural traditions, customs, attitudes and way of life of the Jews." Jewry; "1a. Jews collectively, 1b the Jewish religion or culture... 3. the Jews conceived of as an organised force seeking world domination." I'm sure that most would agree that Wagner was definitely using the meaning of Judaism (2) and very possibly Jewry (3). So either word seems to me to be correct in English.--Dogbertd 15:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me but I speak German, and I can tell you that just about any normal person (and I've checked in dictionaries too just to make sure) would translate the English word "Judaism" into German as "Judentum" rather than "Judaismus," and this was absolutely the case in the 19th century when Wagner was writing. In other words, the word has a very broad meaning in German as it can refer to the religion of the Jewish people, the Jewish people collectively, their real or imagined traits, etc; the English word "Jewry" is far less common in English (not to mention, far less commonly used to translate the title of Wagner's essay), and has a much more restrictive sense than the German in that it really only refers to the Jewish people collectively, merely one of the several senses suggested by the German word, and not really the sense of Wagner's meaning (he would have said "Die Juden in der Musik"). Perhaps a better alternative translation would actually be, ludicrous though it may sound, "Jewishness in Music," but I strongly feel that the more common translation of "Judaism in Music" remains the best one for the purposes of this site, since it is far more common, broader, and doesn't in any way distort the broad sense of Wagner's meaning, and is thus less likely to lead readers astray.

I'll have to apologize if this post was repetitive but I honestly found much of yours to be slightly incoherent. You claim that translating "Judentum" as "Judaism" is a point-blank a mistake; I assure you that it is not, and is in fact, in the great majority of cases, the preferable translation of the word into English. I can't really cite a better source on this issue than the German wikipedia article "Judentum," which begins by stating clearly, "Unter Judentum versteht man die Gesamtheit aus Kultur, Geschichte, Religion und Tradition des sich selbst als Volk Israel (he. am jisrael, bnei jisrael) bezeichnenden jüdischen Volkes. Mit dem Begriff können auch gezielt die jüdische Religion oder, als Gruppe, die sowohl ein Volk als auch eine Glaubensgemeinschaft darstellenden Juden (he. jehudim) angesprochen werden," and goes on to once again call "Das Judentum" a major world religion, etc. etc.. One would never claim that the word "jewry" refers to the culture, history, and religious beliefs of the Jewish people, or to claim that "Jewry" is a world religion. (Eeesh 02:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

Excuse me, but I speak english, and am interested in the best english synonym,since this version of Wikipedia is in English. Your options in english appear to be Judaism or Jewry or Jewishness, and - as I've already pointed out - it seems to me that at least two of these words would be appropriate. Aren't we splitting the finest of hairs here? Under the Wikipedia rules, you are completely at liberty to amend the article yourself: if you feel that it must say "Judaism", then make it so. --Dogbertd 08:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wagner as National emblem

I need to insert something on the adoption of Wagner as a nationalistic composer by the newly-unified Germany. Reading about the success of Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg has made me realise that the Nazis didn't pick Wagner up out of nowhere: he was already extolled as an example of the supriority of German Art - particularly so after the unification of Germany, the success of Die Meistersinger, and of course, after the first Bayreuth Festival. This, I think, should help to put his misuse by the Nazis into some perspective. He wasn't just used because he was one of Hitler's favourite composers - he was already strongly identified with the German State.--Dogbertd 13:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

Under the paternity section, material indicating Wagner's suspicion of possible Jewish ancestry is sourced to the website http://www.smerus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vulture_.htm, which is operated by the Wikipedian User: Smerus. On his user page, Smerus indicates that he is working on his Ph.D. in musicology, but the content referenced in the article is to unpublished material. I would suggest that this constitutes a violation of Wikipedia's original research prohibition since the website offers no distinction between that which may simply be Smerus' thoughts on Wagner and what he may have actually published in pursuit of his Ph.D. W.M. O'Quinlan 23:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

This is an interesting point. At the top of Smerus' page (http://www.smerus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vulture_.htm) it says that this is an extract from a seminar, which is sometimes considered a form of publication. In addition, he provides a list of references (http://www.smerus.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bibliography.htm) for all the articles on his web-page, although it's not clear which relate to this specific article. If this material has been used in Smerus' thesis (and he passed!) then it will have been peer-reviewed, which would certianly make it an acceptable publication from Wikipedia POV, and not merely the opinions of Smerus. Nevertheless it might be better for us to add some further verification on the issue of Wagner's fears of his possible Jewishness. I simply thought that Smerus' page was a good summary of most of the information available to date.--Dogbertd 12:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I've referenced Gutman and Magee, who I think give a fairly good overview of this issue.--Dogbertd 12:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Common Misunderstanding of the Plot of Der Ring

It is worth noting that, although the Nazis promoted Wagner partly because they liked the ideologies (e.g. "Holy German Art" in Meistersinger; "Will to Power" in Der Ring etc), the Nazi backing for Der Ring indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of the plot. Alberich seeks ultimate power by renouncing Love; Wotan seeks power by Will, Force, and Military strength/treaties. Both seekers after power ultimately lose it; it is Brunnhilde's redemption by love which is ultimately victorious. Had the Nazis truly understood the plot of Der Ring, they would have probably banned it.

I think the article as it stands is probably correct in its POV. The Nazis didn't actually like Wagner all that much. Hitler liked Wagner, but his thugs didn't. As Frederick Spotts has shown in his history of the Bayreuth festival The Ring was performed less and less during the war years, and only Meistersinger was presented at the festival in 1943 & 1944.--Dogbertd 08:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)