Talk:W. Somerset Maugham

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Contents

[edit] link?

Why has User:Wik removed the external link http://maugham.thefreelibrary.com/ ? The site looks OK to me and would be pretty useful I think. User:AtStart may have linked the same website on plenty of articles, but is there a policy that disallows this kind of linking ? I guess what finally matters is whether the link is relevant to the article or not. Jay 00:03, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I too was puzzled that that link was removed. I visited the site before and after the link was removed and I did not see anything obviously wrong with it. Dominus 04:08, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] error

As it turns out, when I edited the page, my internet browser's filter software removed the words boondage (with one 'o') and hommoseexual (with one 'm' and one 'e') so if someone would go back through and replace those where there are big blank spots in the code, that would be appreciated. If not, I can from school tomorrow. Zephyrprince 21:37, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • thank you to whoever fixed that Zephyrprince 16:43, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] W. for William?

Why has this article substituted 'W.' for 'William' throughout? Was this the man's preference? Should the article not then explain this? Otherwise, shouldn't we just put it back to saying 'William'?

I don't understand what explanation you would want. He almost never used the name "William" professionally; he was not professionally known as "William Maugham", although his personal friends did call him "Willie". Suggesting that his name be "put back" is akin to suggesting that all the references to Mark Twain in the Mark Twain article be "put back" to Samuel Clemens.
The usual convention in an encyclopedia is that you call people by the names that they are usually called by. Why does this require explanation? -- Dominus 15:25, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Violation of NPOV.

"The posthumous allegation that Maugham was a homosexual is essentially unsubstantiated. The evidence to the contary is much more convincing.His peregrinating life style necesssitated a male secretary. In his works he clearly does not favor homosexuality."

As these four sentences violated NPOV, I removed them. Quite apart from the bizarre idea that Maugham would have openly "favor[ed]" homosexuality in his works if he were gay (an idea which indicates a faulty understanding of history on the part of whoever added it), calling the claim that Maugham was homosexual an "allegation" indicates an implicit bias. The worst sentence is "The evidence to the contary [sic] is much more convincing", which is editorial, and so violates NPOV. --Chips Critic 15:19, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Claiming that Willie's homosexuality is unsubstantiated is more than POV, it's just plain silly - Maugham made no secret of his relationship(s).PiCo 04:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, all -- I'm a bit of a novice here, so I apologize if I'm incorrect -- but doesn't the following passage seem to violate NPOV? "...Maugham's last years were sadly marred by several quasi-scandals which can probably be set down to an itch for attention mixed with cloudy thinking from approaching dementia. The younger Maugham was far too wise and discreet to have made such basic errors in judgement..." Reecesel 05:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, indeed it does. It seems familiar, and may have been removed before. I'll delete it now. --Chips Critic 00:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Maugham was bisexual NOT homosexual/gay. See these articles that are a lot more factual and well researched than Wikipedia's articles: http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/W._Somerset_Maugham

Maugham was bisexual. His affair with the married Gwendoline Maud Syrie Barnardo, daughter of orphanage founder Thomas John Barnardo and wife of American-born English pharmaceutical magnate Henry Wellcome, produced a daughter named Elizabeth 'Liza' Mary Maugham (1915-1998); Syrie's husband Henry Wellcome then sued for divorce, naming Maugham as co-respondent. In May of 1916, following the decree nisi, Syrie and Maugham were married. Syrie became a noted interior decorator who popularized the all-white room in the 1920s. In 1922 Maugham dedicated his short story collection On a Chinese Screen to her. They divorced in 1927-1928 after a tempestuous marriage complicated by Maugham's frequent travels abroad and strained by his relationship with Haxton.

Directing us to a site which plagiarises an earlier version of the Wikipedia article is not an arguement. --Chips Critic 23:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

I've enlarged the article with new material. I don't think anything from the existing article has been deleted - moved, yes, subsumed, yes, but not deleted. Please feel free to revert, edit, alter, hack, slash and burn. And to correct typos. I regret that this is the last thing I'll be doing on Wiki, as I've decided it's taking up too much of my time, so I won't be around to answer questions on sourcing etc - but it's all verifiable, even if you have to go read an old-fashioned book to find the sources. PiCo 14:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Complete Periodical Contribution List

I have added a complete list in chronological order of the first printing date of every article or contribution made by Maugham to journals and periodicals during his lifetime. Maugham often tested his audience and his own interest in a story by serialising it through periodicals such as The Sunday Times and then later released the story as a novel or book. In later years particularly Maugham was adverse to wasting time or work and often rewrote or reworked these articles and they became short stories to be included in his various collections of short stories as detailed elsewhere in this Wikipedia article. My questions to other editors in relation to this addition is (1) can I have your comments as to whether you feel this addition belongs where it is (that is before the Short Stories sub-heading) or should it be placed further up the page given that it is a chronolical list that assists the reader in seeing how Maugham's periodical work developed also into his books? (2)I also intend to look more closely at the list of Novels and Short Story Collections in the near future with a view to adjusting the detail into complete chronological order. Towards that point it seems to me that item 6.1 Novels and Short Story Collections should change simple to Novels as item 6.6 is Short Story Collections. Views on this before I alter it would also be appreciated? VirtualSteve 06:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article candidate?

This must be getting to be one of the more comprehensive profiles of a writer on Wiki. Add references to the text (quite lacking at present) and it could begin the Featured Article process (rather like beginning the canonisation process in the RC Church :). PiCo 09:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Great idea! I have not participated in the beginning of this process before. Just tell me exactly what I can do to help - (process, style, content, etc) - and count me in. VirtualSteve 11:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't been around on Wiki that long myself. But have a look at Wikipedia:Peer review. It sets out the steps to be followed. I think this article needs a little more referencing in the main text of the article - to show where our knowledge of his bio comes from, and to identify any quotes. PiCo 13:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

(Incidentally, this seems to be a good site with some excellent links: Maugham Free Online Library - the very first comment on this discussion page is about it. PiCo

Okay I have started to edit this page with a view to Featured Article and Wikipedia:Peer review and in particular set up first Harvard reference for a non-embedded link. I have gone through my own personal records - using the reference and copies of books to be almost absolutely certain that the list of Novels, Books & Pamphlets, Plays, and Contributions to Periodicals is chronologically correct. The changes made this evening do not remove any of Maugham's original works but I have removed 3 or 4 references to secondary books - that is books that were republished as a compilation of primary books either during or after Maugham's lifetime (and which are therefore already on the site at the section headings just mentioned). My intention next is to reference and as necessary clean up the list of short stories to see if it encompasses and cross matches with the Contributions to Periodicals. VirtualSteve 12:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

For me my problem would be referencing the biography - I was writing from memory :). It's a bit mysterious - I had a hardcover biography of Willie that must have been written in the 80s, but I forget who by, and now I can't find it (which means $29 or so vanished - nothing unusual about that in regard to my personal finances). Anyway, point is, I can't reference anything I wrote. Maybe you have some biographies? (By the way, if you go to my personal apge and look at the left hand list of links, one is to an email contact - please feel free to write to me) PiCo 10:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I have about 50 of Maugham;'s books - and his bibliography as referenced by me in the last couple of days is also quite detailed biographically speaking. I also will start with these first hand accounts because I do not have a lot of faith in the content from the website links. For example this link [1]] appears to suggest that he had his stammer/stutter before he went to England whilst someone has put in the wiki article that it developed after his parents death and that he did not have a stutter in French. These type of points will need verification. Another example is (and I have already adjusted this slightly on the book and Maugham link) many articles refer to Of Human Bondage being autobiographical whereas Maugham himself did not indicate this to be the case in a private note to a collector. Anyway I am keen to battle on with featured article status. Hope you find your book. I will keep in touch via email also. VirtualSteve 01:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
My bio was the one by Ted Margan. Here's [2] a review or two about what appears to be the most recent bio, published 2004. It was Morgan who said that Willy didn't stammer ill he went to school in England. As for the autobio element in OHB, I think the point made by many is not that it slavishly follows every detail of Willy's life, but that it has some elements from it - notably the clubfoot/stammer. But what might be worth mentioning is the "pattern in the carpet" metaphore - I can't ermember exactly what is said in the novel, but it is along the lines that life has no more meaning than the pattern in the Persian carpet. If Maugham went one step further and said it's up to us individually to find the pattern/meaning, then he was an Existentialist well ahead of Sartre :). PiCo 03:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Fantastic - happy to know where the stammer issue came from and to my mind it fits in with the type of person Maugham develops into after the death of his mother and then father. Your link to Morgan would be a worthwile reference then wouldn't it? Will you put it in as a direct reference? Oh and yes the carpet given to him in OHB is a useful consideration - I will see if I can find the actual metaphor as a page link also.VirtualSteve 10:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Added Morgan's biography to the References section. Could you add the ISBN of that other book? Also, I see someone wrote in caps that he/she would like something on Maugham's style. Not the right way to ask, but a genuine request. Can you draft something?

"There was a young lady of Guam/Who peddled her charms, charm by charm/Inspired, I suppose/By the classical prose/Of W Somerset Maugham." PiCo 23:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

ISBN done. Happy to draft style request from anon editor over next few days. Can I suggest that we use Harvard approach for Morgan - at stammer (and any other point) to verify - either with exact page reference of where Morgan says this or that or at least a bit like I have at the bottom of Novels section with the words ...the complete list of original works (see Stott, 1973). VirtualSteve 01:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we need to cite sources for the bio and anything like that, and Harvard is one of Wiki's approved styles. (Have you seen today's featured article on the Radhanites? - good article and well referenced). I think we need to use more than just Morgan - there have been more recent bios (at least one, anyway). Also anything that I wrote needs to be checked - I was writing from meory, which is a big no-no. As you'er (apparently) happy to be the Maugham-man, I'll leave all the hard work to you :). (but of course ask me for anything if you think I can help) PiCo 01:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Understood - Will do, will ask. VirtualSteve 04:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Violet Hunt

"Violet Hunt, at age 13, offered herself to John Ruskin, later refused a marriage proposal from Oscar Wilde, seduced the homosexual Somerset Maugham, was seduced by H.G. Wells and lived for some years as the putative wife of Ford Madox Ford."

Offering oneself to John Ruskin seems like a pointless proposition.

See this article.

PiCo 09:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Interesting when you think Maugham turned her into the loving but unloved Nora in Of Human BondageVirtualSteve 12:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The doctor buries his mistakes, the architect advises his clients to plant vines, the artist writes them into a book. PiCo 15:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

Then article is getting rather long - 37kb. How about taking the Bibliography section (called, perhaps, Bibliography of works by Somerset Maugham and making it a separate article, with a reference frm here? PiCo 05:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Timely idea - was thinking similar a day or two ago. Go for it.VirtualSteve 09:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Done - the link should be in blue now :-). PiCo 12:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks good.VirtualSteve 20:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] style edit

I've edited for style - not much substantive change. I think it could be put up for featured article candidate now. But please, check that reference to Alan Searle's background as a catamite to the rich and famous in London. Morgan says something about Searle having been well-known in gay circles in London (which is why Maugham sought him out after Haxton's death), but the question of his age at the time is very shaky, based on something I read somewhere about Searle writing a letter to a friend during a trip to Egypt with maugham, in which he says he "hasn't been so popular since I was 12 years old" - not exactly rock-hard evidence for rtaducing the man's reputation. PiCo 05:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I'll look for the Searle detail in Morgan or elsewhere. I have been sitting back on Maugham a little as I closely read the bio. There are some sequence issues in our current version that need to be adjusted also. I expect to be able to adjust those next week or next weekend or so. Probably also would like to include a couple more substantial references. Would like to put it up after those changes/additions as they will appear quite substantial when I swop them around within the article. Your thoughts? image:VirtualSteve.pngVirtualSteve 06:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll be happy to wait till you finish the editing to your satisfaction. I might have a close look too to see if there are any points that I think need a citation. Cheers. PiCo 08:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Somerset Maugham and the Fountain of Youth

"I was in Romania a few years ago and heard much of Doctor Aslan, but after seeing what happened to Somerset Maugham at the hands of that Swiss quack I am reluctant to think of rejuvenation! However I am sure that Doctor Aslan is far better than the man [Dr Niehans] whose name I always Freudianly forget." Thusly Graham Greene to a friend, about 1969. It reminded me of this episode in Willie's life: apparently he went once a year to a clinic in Switzerland run by this Dr Niehans, where he had his bum injected with a brew of concentrate of lambs' testicles. It was said to endow the recipient with a smooth and youthful skin. PiCo 11:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination time?

I think we are about ready to nominate this article for Featured Article status now and wait for the input of other editors. As you will see I have adjusted the Searle quote - I just couldn't find the Coward link so I thought it better to remove. Give me your thoughts and then we can put it up if you agree. image:VirtualSteve.pngVirtualSteve 10:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that it be put up for peer review first, as so far only the two of us have done anything with it - it needs more hands and eyes.
  • Remove in-text links to British Library - 3 links all to the same website? Anyway, I don't think they're necessary.
  • The quote "Gerald was champagne" needs to be referenced (I've noted another quote in the text that I think needs a reference). It's from Morgan, but I don't know the page. (Well, hey, it's 25 years since I read that book!). Incidenatall, Ted Morgan has a new book out, about his personal experiences fighting for the French in Algeria - apparently quite fascinating.
  • Re-arranged one paragraph, as the chronological flow seemed odd - you had us going from Willie's 1917 Russian experience, backwards to his 1916 trip to the Pacific, then fast-farward to the purchase of the Mauresque in 1928.
  • Did Haxton die in 1944 or 1946? You've got both.
  • I'm not really very happy with the critical assessment of Maugham under "Achievements". More is needed about his prose style - remember the young lady of Guam, who peddled her charms charm by charm, "Inspired, I suppose, by the classical prose, of W. Somerset Maugham"? (Apparently Maugham rhymes with Charm). Anyway, how would you characterise this style? More to the point, how does Morgan characterise it? What did Burgess and Orwell say? I remember someone saying that Maugham actually wrote a lot of cliches into his prose, but did so deliberately, trying to copy the cliche-ridden speech of ordinary people. Was he a modernist? (No, he was not - but why not?) What were his strengths? What made him the best-selling author not just just of one generation, but of several? How is it he's still being read today, when other best selling popular authors of the 20s and 30s are forgotten? (Sax Rohmer, where are you now? And you, James Hilton, and many another? Ah fame you fickle bitch!)
Do you know you can send me an email from the left-hand side-bar on my personal page? Might be useful if you want to discuss this further - not least because, would you believe, I'll be leaving at the end of this month on a 2-month trip through some of Willie's old haunts. (Well, Burma is one place I'lll visit). PiCo 12:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep all good points. (Actually I meant Peer Review but my fingers typed featured article - damn fingers!) Appreciate your chronological flow adjustment. I will get to quotes and Haxton soon. (I wrote the Haxton article and checked the date then so will make sure it's right). I am very busy at work at the moment but should be able to get to it fairly soon. Have a good trip - will email you as time and necessity dictates. image:VirtualSteve.pngVirtualSteve 10:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added about about modernism and his use of cliches. There is alot that can be added to the article, I'll try and help as soon as my final exams are over. Also, you may be interested in helping out on the Ernest Hemingway article which should be ready for feature status soon as well. It would be nice to do both these authors justice with excellent articles. Rizla 23:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] revert to version by user Feyday

The two edits subsequent to this version were (a) someone who believed, no doubt sincerely, that e.e.cummings was E.E. Cummings, and (b) someone who didn't like one of the photos. Both are mistaken. PiCo 12:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Summing Up

Maugham's 1938 book "The Summing Up" has a wealth of information about Maugham's life as he saw it himself, and I am in the process of selecting what seems to me the most apt material from that book and inserting some of it into this article. Feel free to further edit my additions.

Andrew Szanton, 4/06

Hi Andrew, Yes I have read that book as well. Great idea to use it in his wiki article especially if what you add is referenced to the book (as we have done for other parts). Can I suggest care in terms of fact versus Maugham as he was quite often either mistaken (his memory failed him a fair bit in the end) or he was trying to cover his tracks (one of his last acts was to ask everyone that he ever wrote letters to to destroy them and he personally destroyed almost every bit of correspondence he had ever received in huge bonfires), and finally he lived in a kind of post-Wilde morbid fear of his alternate sexuality being discovered. image:VirtualSteve.pngVirtualSteve 00:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

"Somerset and all the Maughams did it," according to the song. Quite a few of them did, apparently - you could also use Robin Maugham's book, the one with the above-mentioned title. PiCo 08:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Could someone check this?

The article says: "Maugham's father and three older brothers were all distinguished lawyers and Maugham asked to be excused from the duty of following in their footsteps." Given his stammer, did he really have to ask to be excused? I don't have any reference books handy, but someone who does might like to check this. PiCo 02:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


I think the article's opening assessment of Maugham the world-famous author and the description of the fumbling young Maugham that immediately follows might be better connected, and will try to add a sentence or two here.

Andrew Szanton, 5/06

[edit] Significant works

How come the Significant Works section speaks nothing of The Razor's Edge and Moon and Sixpence? Even if Of Human Bondage was his most acclaimed, these atleast deserve a mention. - Cribananda 04:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Go for it Cribananda. Be bold - Write! image:VirtualSteve.pngVirtualSteve 01:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, especially about The Razor's Edge. I've added mentions of that, The Moon and Sixpence and Cakes and Ale. InNuce 03:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What next? Peer Review?

For all those interested in W. Somerset Maugham can you put your points below this one as to whether you think that it is ready for a full blown Peer Review? I think that I have covered the last 2 of the unreferenced or unlinked components this evening and it is time to move the whole article up a notch. Anyway your thoughts below if you please? VirtualSteve 08:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

More work needed, I think, particularly on "Popular success" and "Grand Old Man", which are quite scrappy at present. Register also seems to be a problem. --Chips Critic 00:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another Page

The authors may be interested to know that there is a rival page, less extensive than this, under the heading "Somerset Maughan". Note the incorrect spelling of the surname. The page mis-spelled the surname throughout, which I corrected, however the title remains. The main author is asking for proof of the correct spelling of the surname. Maybe the two groups of authors could get together. 22 May 2007

[edit] Maughan or Maugham??

After further research I am satisfied that MaughaM is the correct spelling. Apologies for setting up another page with the wrong spelling. David(Talk • Contribs) 09:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gin And Bitters

What is the purpose / value of this note without a reference? TomyDuby 04:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maugham as playwright

The main article contains so little about his plays... TomyDuby 04:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another book on Maugham

[edit] Pronunciation

Just wondering, what is the correct way to pronounce "Maugham"?

There was a young lady of Guam
Who peddled her charms, charm by charm
Inspired, I suppose,
By the classical prose
Of W. Somerset Maugham.
(Although a rhyme with "form" is actually more common).
PiCo 00:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
That was...incredibly confusing, though I suspect that was intentional. I can't figure the part about a "form" rhyme. How would one manage a rhyme between -rm and -am words without using a heavy accent of some kind? Anyway, would it not have been simpler to just say "maum"? :) That was my guess, due to the pronunciation of other -ugham words, but since I tend to randomly mispronounce words at inopportune moments, I thought I'd make sure. Anyway, thanks again. Kel - Ex-web.god 23:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pedastry?

why is he in the category of modern pedastry? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.58.74.161 (talk) 08:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)