Talk:Włodzimierz Brus

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A fact from Włodzimierz Brus appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 7 January 2008.
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Lviv (known as Lvov in Polish) - Lviv is not known as Lvov in Polish. It is known as 'Lwów'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.146.238.235 (talk) 15:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

It is alleged that WB 'was unable' to return to Poland in the 1990's because his wife (residing in the UK) was facing criminal charges for her participation in the Stalinist-era crimes. There is no provision in Polish Law that allows for prosecution of a husband for his wife's crimes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.146.238.235 (talk) 15:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, but Brus did not want to leave his wife to move back to Poland. She couldn't could, so he didn't want to either.--Carabinieri (talk) 19:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

So he WAS ABLE to return to Poland, but he HIMSELF decided against it bacause he did not want to live his wife behind. BTW, his wife was (and still) IS ABLE to return to Poland (there is nothing stopping her). For obvious reasons, she chooses to stay in the UK. One more thing... The article states that Brus was on a short trip to the UK and then decided to settle there permanently after his son had been taken ill. This reasoning is, at best, weak and naive. Besides, the opening paragraph is a blatant POV. 'Polish universities were somewhat reluctant to admit Jews' - it is unsourced and completely out of place here. Especially that it is not mentioned anywhere that this person was of Jewish origin (i.e., a Polish economist, not a Polish-Jewish economist). Maybe he was just not smart enough to get accepted to a good university and blamed his own shortcomings on what he percieved to be Polish anti-semitism? I do not like the phrase 'he was forced to flee' when you talk about his life shortly after the German agression on Poland in 1939. He simply fled. Most inhabitanst of the Polish capital stayed put - there were no orders to evacuate the city. Only some people ran away East towards the incoming Russians, but it was their own choice as they expected to be safe there. The guy was 18 years old at that time - men this age are usually obliged to defend their country in the time of war... Later is the same paragraph you mention that 'he fled Lviv' - he did the same when he left Warsaw. He fled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.146.237.150 (talk) 20:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

What you're saying is ridiculous. Anti-Semitism and the Holocaust didn't only exist in the Jews' minds. He was admitted to the university, although many of his fellow Jews were not (because they were Jewish). This is referenced just as the rest of the article is. (Ever bother reading the articles linked in the footnotes?) Mentioning anti-Semitism is not POV, but an accurate depiction of history. He was forced to flee from Western Poland. If he hadn't, the Germans would have killed him.--Carabinieri (talk) 21:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

For starters, avoid ad hominen arguments. Did Brus want to go to univeristy during the Holocaust? No, he wanted to go to university in pre-war Poland. So, please do not bring the Holocaust into it as chronologically you are getting it all mixed up. And this article is about Brus and Brus alone, not Polish Jews (was Brus Jewish anyway? It does not say in the article) who had problems with attending universities. Even if I wanted to treat obituaries in British newspapers as a realiable source of information (don't speak bad of the dead, right?), I would still refrain from making such sweeping comments about pre-war Poland based on what one jurno penned out in five minutes. Now, you obviously do not read your own references... In the first one you provide it says 'He FLED to Lviv' not 'he WAS FORCED to flee to Lviv'. Do you get it? Of course he fled to safe his own skin, and it was his own decision. Self-preservation, cowardice - take your pick, but nobody but Brus himself made this decision. Was he a conscript to the Polish Army at that time? The guy is 18, the war breaks out, he flees... I am just curious, given the fact that most Polish males of his age would be fighting at that time. It is still unclear why he decided to settle in the UK for good. There must have been other, more important, reasons apart from his son's illness. I do not see a logical connection between these two events. Just because your son catches the flu in Mongolia, you would not decide to live there permanently, right? Did his decision to flee Poland again have anything to do with the 1968 events? If you do not address these issues in timely manner, either by removing the offending pieces or re-editing them, I will do it for you. As you can notice, I have so far refrained from interfering with your article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.146.237.150 (talk) 23:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to answer. Where was I arguing ad hominem? I was calling what you wrote ridiculous, not you. My mentioning of the Holocaust was referring to your claim that Brus was not forced to flee. I am willing to settle on having the "forced to" removed, mostly because it makes very little difference in its meaning. I insist, however, on mentioning the part about Polish universities discriminating Jews. This is relevant to the article, because it was a challenge Brus had to overcome to attain his education. This claim is not only based on The Guardian (why would this newspaper make up this claim?), but also on the Featured Article about the History of the Jews in Poland. I have to admit I am also curious why exactly he decided to settle in Britain, but unfortunately the obituary doesn't say anymore than what I wrote in the article.--Carabinieri (talk) 01:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)