Talk:Vympel R-77

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This needs to be merged with another R-77 article that is somewhere in Wiki. Please help find.

[edit] Uncited comparison

Regarding the FAS citation, how does "The most recent Russian R-77 medium-range missiles (AA-12 "AMRAAMSKI") is similar to and in some respects equal to the American AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles." [1], support the claim that "The missile, when compared to the AIM-120A, AIM-120B, and AIM-120C, is considered superior in range by most experts in the field"? FAS is an organization of pure scientists, not defense analysts, so they're hardly "experts" on the matter. The entire section is dripping with WP:OR--Mmx1 05:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Pure scientists have a tendency to know how to analyze data. IF the data they collected suggests the R-77 has greater range ("The R-77 missile has an active radar finder and a maximim range of 90-100 kilometers (50 km more than AMRAAM) and flies at four times the speed of sound."), I'd tend to assume they did their homework. In any case, it certainly is not difficult to believe that a larger missile has a longer range so in fact it would be the opposite claim that would require massive citation. Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's not assume bad faith. Literal OR is almost impossible w/ such a topic, so let's not confuse the lack for citations for genuine original research. Most enthusiasts accumulate data from countless sources throughout their "travels" in this military area of study - snippets from 5-year old journals, BBS discussions with people with enormous libraries under their command ... etc, of which only the most tiny fraction can be brought up from reciting. Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Enthusiasts do not qualify as "experts" not matter how scientific their training, if it is not specific to the matter at hand. Cite it however you'd like, but don't portray the FAS as "experts" in the field. They're very good information aggregators, but not a great primary source. --Mmx1 13:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A 50km greater range than that of the AIM-120A? Where did you get that figure? The standard R-77 has has about a 15km greater range than the AIM-120A and AIM-120B. About maneuverability I find it hard to believe that those "potato masher" fins make the missile more maneuverable than the smaller AIM-120. I think it is just Russian hype supporting that idea. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.118.177.152 (talk) 09:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

Short answer to your first question is that it is the opinion of FAS. Longer answer is that AFAIK there are two ranges (~50,~74km) in common circulation for the AIM-120 and three ranges (~50km,~75km,~90-100) for the R-77 - not counting of course low-altitude ranges and rear-aspect ranges which are of course much shorter. Personally I buy the longer ranges for both sides myself, but FAS is of course "verifiable".

For your 2nd point, it sounds like stereotypical anti-Russian bias at work. Objectively, the R-77 is only marginally heavier (about 10%). It is hardly inconceivable that it can more than make up the difference if it has a better aerodynamic layout. Already, with the 10% difference it weight it has >10% superiority in range even by your assumptions (90/75=1.2). Besides, the Russians also used more conventional surfaces in other weapons, so it is hard to believe they left that unless there's a superiority in the lattices worth looking for.

To be very, very fair, there is a minority out there that thinks the lattices were a mistake (I've encountered the position once on a BBS). For a while, their position was on this article, and I left it even though it was uncited because I knew the position was somewhere and I wanted to give that faction a chance to show up. So far, I have yet to see their position repeated on even a webpage. Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding FAS and GlobalSecurity.org - to phrase it in Wikipedia terms ;-) , they're not at all known in the defense community for holding an NPOV attitude torwards the military. - Aerobird ^{Target locked - Fox One!} 15:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I assume that you left out "US" before "Defense community" and "military". By the time a military agrees something is "neutral" to what they think, it is probably 20 degrees biased their way :D

Anyway, NPOV is not a requirement for inclusion. Verifiability is. Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why so much comparision

Much is written about Comparision with AMRAAM rather than actual R-77 description.

It's just local sort of sport - find a pair of USA/USSR devices and compare them to death :-) --jno 13:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think it had to do with the fact that many military statistics are rather meaningless except in comparison with comparable weapons. As an example, it could be written that the R-77 uses "potato-masher" fins. That's nice but it is absolutely meaningless, the more so to a layman (and encyclopedias must cater to the layman even more than the expert). I can then write that the configuration gives excellent maneuverability. That's nice but again unless you already know the significance (in which case you aren't that much of a layman) it's absolutely meaningless to you. If I write that the layout is superior in maneuverability to the "delta" configuration, that's better but you still have no clue because you may have no idea who uses the delta. But if I name the AIM-120, the significance is much more easily grasped and now you have information, not just data. Kazuaki Shimazaki 17:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Even in comparision it remains meaningless. You must compare "available overload" (still dunno english term for it) numeric values of the missile vs its targets (keeping in mind overall stability of missile control system, available energy of its engine, and power of warhead), not the form/technology of control surfaces. Just because efficiency of an AA/SA missile is not limited/defined by it maneurability. Hence, I see almost no reasons for such a "comparisions" in enciclopedic articles. Anyway, it's matter of POV - what should an eciclopedia provide: data, info, evaluations, POVs or whatever else. I prefer raw data accompanied by refs to "comparable" (same time, same functions) devices. If one need a comparision, she can do it on her own. --jno 10:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There should be a comparison but in the context that these two missiles are extremely similar in terms of capability and function. They're both sophisticated, latest generation, maneuverable and versatile medium range missiles with terminal active radar homing and anti-jam capabilities.58.107.102.215 02:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)