Talk:Vydūnas

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Wilhelm Storost-Vydunas (1868-1953), a friend of my grandfather Julius Schukat and Lithuanian savant from Tilsit had been staying with us in Powarben, East Prussia, since 1944 and joined our family as a refugee. He was particularly helpful in talking to the invading Russians as they attempt to look out for girls whom they may want to abuse.
71.214.52.127 02:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I made a revision considering, Lietuvninkai writer. As in every article, we must respect persons self-determination. Facts are following: Vydūnas never considered Prussian Lithuanians to be different nation than Lithuanians in general. He always saw himself a Lithuanian writer in general, not stressing his origin from Prussian Lithuania in this case, what is well documented. Also it's worth to notice, that he didn't accept usage of the word Lietuvininkai as an ethnonym of Prussian Lithuanians (about this controversy see Lietuvninks) Linas Lituanus 15:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

This man always was a citizen of Germany and in all offficial documents named himself as Wilhelm Storost. So why the article gives lithuanian form of his name? --Vulpes vulpes 06:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I will move this page, because this person signed himself as Vydûnas, but not as Vydūnas. Such ortography was used among Prussian-Lithuanians. --Vulpes vulpes 09:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Without proper and clear academic publications that you say is considered WP:OR, next for renaming article use WP:RM rather then your single-sided move. M.K. 12:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article should be moved to Vydûnas. It is not WP:OR, this man signed as Vydûnas, it is clearly seen in referencies of article, in autograph [1]. He was using a bit different ortography neither lithuanians. Strange situation: in the same article is used three forms of pseudonym. --Vulpes vulpes 08:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Current name is used in English encyclopedias such as Encyclopedia Lithuanica Vol. 6; Encyclopedia of World Literature in the 20th Century, so current name is matching WP policies. So no need to change current name. BTW, that type of link you provided - is it some sort of educational institution web or what? M.K. 09:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no letters like û or ū in english language, so logical solution should be Vydunas without any diacritics. But WP respects original spelling, so the only one solution is - Vydûnas. You lithuanians are strange people - you became angry when Laurynas Gucevičius is called Wawrzyniec Gucewicz. You say, hey, real, authentic name should be lithuanian name. Now when is given authentic form you once again don't like it. Give real arguments. BTW, a can give much more links without ū in english language. --Vulpes vulpes 05:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Please no WP:NPA - there is no "the Lithuanians", there are separate individuals with quite different beliefs.--Lokyz 13:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The facts are: official name of philosopher always was Wilhelm Storost and this is enough to name article after such title. Well, I agree, he was better known under pseudonym - Vydunas. In lithuanian WP you can name this person as you like, but this is english WP, naming Vydūnas is falsification of history, philosopher himself not used such name. --Vulpes vulpes 10:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

FYI - word Lithuanians is to be written capitalized. Another point - you will not find your proposed name in many English sources, and yes this is English Wikipedia, and Vydūnas is most common form of his pen name in English litearature. Of course, you may add Vydûnas in the lead, and create redirect,. I'm affraid there is not a sigle motive to move this page. --Lokyz 14:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added alternative spelling to the lead, and redirect already exists. I hope you'll find this satisfactory.--Lokyz 17:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The form he did use is rather sanscritic than "Prussian Lithuanian".--Lokyz 14:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Creating theories? You really surprised me claiming û derives from sanscritic. Look at Vydunas' orthography there [2] or there [3] and compare with Prussian Lithuanian writing from 1727 there [4]. Are you still saying û is sanscritic form? --Vulpes vulpes 11:54, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Now let's talk what form of a name is mostly used in English books and encyclopedias: Vydunas gives 229 results (in various languages including English), Vydūnas - 140 (mostly Lithuanian), Vydûnas - 18 (various), Vîdûnas - 14 (French and German). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vulpes vulpes (talk • contribs) 12:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Vidunas - 136 results in English, German and other languages. --Vulpes vulpes 12:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

So the facts are: philosopher in English language mostly is named as Vydunas or Vidunas. Philosopher himself signed as Vîdûnas or Vydûnas. His real name was Wilhelm Storost/Vilius Storostas. Only in Lithuania is known as Vydūnas, but it is ridiculous to use Lithuanian name in English context. In Lithuanian Abraham Lincoln is known under Abraomas Linkolnas name. So I understood Lithuanian WP users do not want use authentic form, so the only logical solution is move this article to Vydunas. --Vulpes vulpes 08:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly as you say. Writing Vydūnas, Vîdûnas, Vydûnas or Vydunas is a question of orthography not of language. Each variant is written from Lithuanian, using different orthography. These variations were possible because: (1) Lithuanian orthography didn't have a standard till approx. 1905 (2) Lithuanian orthography was unstable till approx. 1920 (3) Vydūnas had proposed his own orthography for Lithuanian language, subsequently using it in books, published by him. (4) Orthography by Vydūnas was unstable too. SO:

• Vydūnas is the current Lithuanian standard.
• Vidunas, Vydunas must have been taken from books, published in Lithuania Minor between 1900 - 1923; letter ū wasn't commonly used in Lithuania Minor then.
• also Vidūnas may be a mistaken rewriting from Vydūnas' orthography to Lithuanian standard.
• Vîdûnas, Vydûnas are variants of Vydūnas' orthography. The first is earlier, the second is later. BTW, the spelling was changed by Vydūnas himself, because î was often mistakenly rewritten to i instead of i in the standard Lithuanian.

Thus no variant of the name is specifically English, German or, say, "international". All they are taken from Lithuanian. The conclusion is clear here. NO NEED to move the article. It's title is written in standard Lithuanian the same way as every Lithuanian name, that don't have a special written tradition in English. Linas Lituanus 16:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yet it's almost imposible to compare the case with Laurynas Gucevičius or, especially, with Abraham Lincoln. Not concerning the question how much the rewriting from Polish forms of the 17th - 18th centuries to Lithuanian forms, that were used almost exclusively in spoken then, is reasonable, nobody doubted that if we find undeniable prove, that some person considered himself Lithuanian, Lithuanian form of his name should be used as the main. That was said about the names of earlier periods. While Vydūnas lived in the 20th century and considered himself Lithuanian. It would be a very bad joke to try to attach him any other ethnicity. Also the word Vydūnas itself is Lithuanian, so it would be legal to use Lithuanian form in spelling even is Vydūnas itself considered himself not Lithuanian, as it is often done with names of, say, French or German origin in English. -- What concerns Abraham Lincoln, i have no words. Abraham Lincoln has no any specific name in Lithuanian. Abraham'as Lincoln'as or (spoken variant) Abrahamas Linkolnas is an adapting to specifics of the language, which hasn't noun cases without inflections. The name don't become Lithuanian being adopted this way. The same way name Vydūnas won't be more English if we write it without diacritics. BTW, Lithuanian names are often written without diacritics in English sources. But that is not a good rule for Wikipedia. Linas Lituanus 16:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)